Is it okay to lie?

[murjahel]

“The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies” (Ps 58:3).

Lying begins in childhood, even in infancy... Once a baby learns that when something is wrong and they cry, someone comes. Then they begin to use crying to get someone to come, even when nothing is wrong. The nature of humans is that lying is easy, normal... The new nature brought at salvation puts the spirit in control, but the old nature will seek to validate itself, justify its ways, and will lie a blue streak, if allowed.

Lying is a part of the old Adamic nature, “the old man” Colossians 3:9, which the believer in Jesus Christ is called upon to put off. If we 'put off' lying, it is an effort. Just like all other parts of the old man, the lying is a part of our former person. Some want to justify the old nature, to excuse their falling back into it... Lies are a part that we need to totally shun, and face the fact that it is an abomination to God, and damaging to our walk with Him.

So prominent a factor is it that it is a sin that we must avoid, is found in the punishment for all 'liars'.
Rev 21:8
“All liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone”.

 

[brinny]

Was God wrong/mistaken to proclaim Rahab as righteous?

 

[Svt4Him]

Would anyone care to address the spies hiding?

It has been said that Rahab didn't know any better when she lied, but the spies, who were men of God, were clearly complicit in her lies. Why would they put Rahab in a situation where she would be forced to choose whether she would surrender them or lie for them? Why didn't they just surrender themselves and let God save them?

100% speculation. The spies were on the roof, she was not. That was all the story said, so anything beyond that just isn't there.

 

[probinson]

100% speculation. The spies were on the roof, she was not. That was all the story said, so anything beyond that just isn't there.

Do you honestly beleive that the spies, who were hiding from their pursuers on Rahab's roof, didn't know that Rahab lied for them so that they could escape?

The spies were very clearly complicit in Rahab's deceit of the king's men. Rahab told them, "Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way." (Joshua 2:16) She told them exactly where to go to avoid their pursuers, and she knew exactly where they needed to go because she had lied to their pursuers and sent them the wrong way.

 

[Tamara224]

Would anyone care to address the spies hiding?

It has been said that Rahab didn't know any better when she lied, but the spies, who were men of God, were clearly complicit in her lies. Why would they put Rahab in a situation where she would be forced to choose whether she would surrender them or lie for them? Why didn't they just surrender themselves and let God save them?

Exactly. I mean, hello, they were SPIES!

I imagine the pre-mission briefing went something like this:

Joshua calls the men.... "we need to know the lie of the land and the strength of our enemies. So you two men will go into the city and PRETEND to be innocent travelers, HIDE the fact that millions of us are waiting across the boarder to invade, and SNEAK around gathering intelligence on our enemies. Don't ask anyone about their defenses, that will just tip them off. No, we're going to figure out that information secretly and then use it against them. Get in, get the intel and then get out again as quickly as possible and don't tip them off to your presence."




I mean, seriously, people. Get out of your little legalism boxes and check out the real world every once in a while. It would do you a world of good.

Sheesh. Talk about straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.

Not under the law, people, not under the law.

 

[JimB]

Of course we are not under law, T. But since when did following Jesus Christ become "law" and "legalism"? Being a follower of Jesus is more than just claiming you are a Christian, saying "Lord, Lord," it is really denying yourself and following Jesus (who, incidentally, never lied ... unless you can show us otherwise ). If that is legalism by your definition, them I am a happy legalist.

~Jim

 

[Boidae]

Lying begins in childhood, even in infancy... Once a baby learns that when something is wrong and they cry, someone comes. Then they begin to use crying to get someone to come, even when nothing is wrong. The nature of humans is that lying is easy, normal...

I think you're making a pretty huge stretch there. Crying when something isn't wrong just isn't a human thing.

Take a dog for instance. Put one into a crate, it whines even though there is nothing wrong with it, so that it's owners would take it out of the crate. You do that one or two times and the dog learns that when it cries it will be taken out of it's crate.

So do dogs lie as well? They don't even know the concept of lying. Yet, human infants and children do the same thing as a dog does, cries to get attention, whether something is wrong or not.

Sorry, your example doesn't work.

 

[murjahel]

Raise your standard...

Rahab lied, ignorant of other methods
that would not be sinful,
she chose what her culture would do
in that situation, she lied.

God blessed her for hiding them,
but not for the lie that she used to try to
protect herself and them.
God could have, and would have saved the spies
no matter what she would have done.

Now, we have Jesus to compare to.
He is 'Truth' and has power and salvation
for us.

To whom do you seek to be like?
Like Jesus, or like Rahab?
Who is the One you want to be like?
Who does God want you to be like?

I asked earlier which one do you think
is our example to follow?
The answer is obvious. I did not want answers
then, for it would be blasphemous to answer wrongly.

Jesus is our example to follow.
I do not want to follow Rahab's example,
she is sorry she did not know Jesus then,
and did not do as He would have done...

Jesus had the power of the Spirit
even while in His human body,
for He was and is Truth, ...
that truth made it possible for the Spirit
to raise the dead, calm storms,
feed thousands, etc...
there is power in a ministry of following Jesus...

Rahab was a human, learning but still not perfect...
Jesus is perfect...
we can follow Him...
seek to be truthful always... ​

 

[murjahel]

Of course we are not under law, T. But since when did following Jesus Christ become "law" and "legalism"? Being a follower of Jesus is more than just claiming you are a Christian, saying "Lord, :Lord," it is really denyinging yourself and following Jesus (who, incidentally, never lied ... unless you can show us otherwise ). If that is legalism by your definition, them I am a happy legalist.

~Jim

well said...

​

 

[Tamara224]

Of course we are not under law, T. But since when did following Jesus Christ become "law" and "legalism"? Being a follower of Jesus is more than just claiming you are a Christian, saying "Lord, :Lord," it is really denyinging yourself and following Jesus (who, incidentally, never lied ... unless you can show us otherwise ). If that is legalism by your definition, them I am a happy legalist.

~Jim

"Lying is always a sin under all circumstances for all time" = legalism.

Not having the freedom to act rightly because you have bound yourself to a code that says "it's always wrong to lie" is living "under the law."

Following Jesus doesn't mean following rules. Period.

Jesus broke the rules when there was an overriding principle at stake. He healed on the Sabbath and let his disciples pick grain on the Sabbath. The Pharisees took the same position you're taking "the law doesn't include an exception for this, so it's always a sin." Jesus saw beyond the letter of the law to the spirit of the law: the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

There is a time for everything under the sun. I think that includes "a time to lie."

Also, God sending a lying spirit with the purpose (on God's part) to deceive people IS an example of God lying. A principal is directly responsible for the commissioned acts of his agent. If God sent someone in His name to do something for Him, then God is the one responsible for what got done.

There are only two logical conclusions from that story: either God sinned or it wasn't a sin.

 

[Tamara224]

Ezekiel 14:9
And if the prophet be deceived when he has spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand on him, and will destroy him from the middle of my people Israel.

2 Thessalonians 2:11b-12
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

​

I could also post all of the many verses which talk about God blinding people to the truth and hardening their hearts so that they cannot understand the truth.

 

[murjahel]

Jehosophat and Ahab sent for 400 prophets of Baal to tell them
whether they would win the war or not.... they all said 'yes'.

They wondered if there was a 'different' prophet to verify. Micaiah was called, and warned that he had better agree with the false prophets of Baal.

He mocked the kings, and said 'go on to war, be blessed'. The king questioned him and said, tell what you really think... So Micaiah gave a word from God that was totally truth.

The kings were not convinced. A lying spirit volunteered to inspire the false prophets to be more convincing in their lie. God was angry that the true prophet had been ignored, so he allowed the evil spirit to do so.

This is akin to God allowing the devil to tempt Job. God did not do it, nor condone it, but allowed the devil to cause great suffering for Job. God still loved, still was good... it was the devil who lied and afflicted. In the case of Micaiah, he prophesied the truth, the kings did not heed the real message, so God allowed the lying prophets of Baal to convince the kings with the lies from a lying spirit.

Is this the proof some offer to prove that God allows lying? Well, if you reject the truth of God's Word, of God's prophets of today, then God may allow a lying spirit to give a message to a lying prophet, and allow you to believe it... I guess, in that way, I agree.

Yet, to take that story and say God is a liar, is not agreed with...

 

[murjahel]

Ezekiel 14:9 (KJV)
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing,
I the LORD have deceived that prophet,
and I will stretch out my hand upon him,
and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

​

Dake's answer...
The method God uses to deceive a false prophet is to permit an evil spirit to take hold of him (1Ki. 22:22), or let the prophet be lifted up in his pride and see visions of his own exalted heart (Ezek. 13:2-3,17; Jer. 23:16,25,31-39).

A man or woman who yields to either one of these has rejected God and His way of life, and lived in sin and rebellion to the point of becoming the victim of a wrong spirit.
The same principle is stated in Mt. 13:14-15; 2Th. 2:8-12.

God never deliberately deceives anyone, but when men will not listen to Him He withdraws and permits them to be deceived by demons (Rom. 1:18-32).

Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (KJV)
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness
in them that perish;
because they received not the love of the truth,
that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them
strong delusion,
that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned
who believed not the truth,
but had pleasure in unrighteousness. ​

​

​

Dake's answer...
​

In what sense does God send such things?

This question is answered in Rom. 1:21-32.
It is not God's will that any man perish, but that all come to repentance (Jn. 3:16-20; 2Tim. 2:4; 2Pet. 3:9; Rev. 22:17).

If men persist in rebellion, then God gives them over to their own ways which will damn their souls.

It is something that He is forced to do because He cannot save men who persist in damning their own souls.
God has made the laws of sowing and reaping and this is the sense in which God has anything to do with such destinies (Gal. 6:7-8; Isa. 45:7, note).

Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.

 

[murjahel]

This is a 'Spirit filled' group? Really ? The ideas being presented here,
and who all accepts those ideas... astounds me ! Need a spiritual washing in the blood, to see these ideas, doctrines, insults to God....

 

[probinson]

Nope. No ad hominem attacks in that post.

 

[Boidae]

Nope. No ad hominem attacks in that post.

Was just going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it.

Why attack those you don't agree with anyway? Not everyone, even spirit-filled Christians are going to agree on everything.

 

[probinson]

Was just going to say the same thing, but you beat me to it.

Why attack those you don't agree with anyway? Not everyone, even spirit-filled Christians are going to agree on everything.

It wouldn't be so bad if people would actually engage you and respond to your points, but some people apparently lack the ability to discuss their differences without casting aspersions on others.

 

[murjahel]

everything[/I] under the sun. I think that includes "a time to lie."

Also, God sending a lying spirit with the purpose (on God's part) to deceive people IS an example of God lying. .

is this what people here agree with?

that God lies?

is there a 'time to lie'?

is this our 'gospel'?

no way !

am I the only one here who finds that
wrong?​

 

[JimB]

is this what people here agree with?​

that God lies?​

is there a 'time to lie'?​

is this our 'gospel'?​

no way !​

am I the only one here who finds that ​

wrong?​

Nope. I'm with you on this one. I guess by that some people's reasoning there is also a time for blaspheming and cheating on your spouse.

 

[murjahel]

I could also post all of the many verses which talk about God blinding people to the truth and hardening their hearts so that they cannot understand the truth.​

​

is this something you folks can read and not
be shocked at this idea?

God blinds those who 'will not' accept the truth,
never blinds people so they 'cannot' understand truth...​