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Is it okay to lie?

Discussion in 'Spirit-Filled / Charismatic' started by BoyRescue, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. JimB

    JimB Legend

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    :scratch: How is following the scripture not following God if scripture is the Word of God? How can we say we are following Christ if we are disobeying His Word? Sure, Jesus was the authoritative interpreter of the law, which reflects the mind of God (and that is why He never lied, even to spare feelings), but we are not that free to flagrantly violate plain scripture just because we feel justified in doing so. It is not our place to determine when we should lie and when we should tell the truth. We are to simply tell the unembellished truth to others just as God in Christ has told the unembellished truth to us ... always. If you or anyone else lies to me to spare my feelings, how can I ever trust that you are being truthful with me about other things and not just justifying another lie?

    ~Jim
     
  2. surrender1

    surrender1 Newbie

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    There are times it is right to lie. The command regarding lying is in regards to bearing false witness against another.
     
  3. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Amen.
     
  4. murjahel

    murjahel Senior Veteran

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    The word 'lie' and 'lying' come from the Hebrew word 'sheker, and Kazabh'... Also, in the Greek the word pseudos mening to speak falsely, to fabricate, to make a false statement...


    God honors those who speak for Him, they are 'honorable' God says, the one who claims to speak for God and lies, is said to be 'the tail'..


    Isaiah 9:15
    The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.


    In the Old Testament, if one spoke lies in the name of the Lord, when the one would give the lying prophesies, they were to be killed by the parents...

    We have alot of lying prophecies out there right now, it is blessed for them that we are in a covenant of grace that puts off their judgment, giving them time to repent...


    Zechariah 13:3
    And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.


    If one says it is all right to drink wine and strong intoxicating drinks, they are accepted by the people as prophets, but really are walking in the spirit of falsehood...


    Micah 2:11
    11If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.


    The father of all lies is the devil, he instigates them, he is the one who is there to suggest them, and try to get people to justify them and claim that God gave them those words...

    John8:44
    Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    Any unrepentant lies are sufficient to be the reason one does not get to walk in the New Jerusalem...


    Rev 21:27
    27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


    Lying to make oneself look better to others, is considered a lie to God... not just to men... Ananias and Sapphira died for that kind of lie, God judged them for it...


    Acts 5:3-4
    3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.



    Rev 21:8
    “All liars shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone”


     
  5. murjahel

    murjahel Senior Veteran

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    A test... are you
    RIGHTEOUS, or WICKED...?

    The Bible teaches us to know one by their 'fruit'...
    How do people regard 'lying'???
    That tells us if they are righteous or wicked...

    Take the test, how you regard lying tells us whether you are righteous or wicked...

    The righteous are called upon to hate lying,
    Proverbs 13:5 (KJV)
    5 A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.

    The righteous person will
    avoid lying.

    Zephaniah 3:13 (KJV)
    13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

    The righteous do not respect those who lie, and utterly reject their company.
    Psalm 40:4 (KJV)
    4 Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
    Psalm 101:7 (KJV)
    7 He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.

    The righteous pray to
    be delivered from lying
    Psalm 119:29 (KJV)
    29 Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously.



    HOWEVER...


    The wicked love lying
    Psalm 52:3 (KJV)
    3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah.



    The wicked delight in lying.
    Psalm 62:4 (KJV)
    4 They only consult to cast him down from his excellency: they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly. Selah.





    The wicked give heed to lying.
    Proverbs 17:4 (KJV)
    4 A wicked doer giveth heed to false lips; and a liar giveth ear to a naughty tongue.

    Are you RIGHTEOUS? or WICKED?

     
  6. ~RENEE~

    ~RENEE~ Legend

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    NO
     
  7. probinson

    probinson Legend

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    I have to wonder, would you describe a person who seeks to kill you your "neighbor"?

    :cool:
     
  8. probinson

    probinson Legend

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    Your link doesn't take me to my first post, but that's probably because I have my display settings to show 40 posts per page instead of the usual 10.

    However, in my first post, I talk about cognitive dissonance displayed by those who say that Rahab was blessed for helping the spies, but not because she lied (despite the fact that lying was precisely how she helped the spies). I also said that some people seem to be enamored by their theology and unable to see the forest through the trees, which I stand by.

    I wonder... do you even know what an "ad hominem" is? That post wasn't even addressed to any one person in particular, though you and others did seem to choose to take offense to it.

    :cool:
     
  9. probinson

    probinson Legend

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    Yes, the story in the blog comments is wonderful. The actual story, the subject of the link, where a young girl was returned to her abusers and is likely being abused as we speak... I don't love that story so much.

    :cool:
     
  10. probinson

    probinson Legend

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    She did.

    Now the argument you'll get in return is "Did David commit adultery?" Yes, He did, and that in no way indicates that adultery is OK. Therefore, they conclude that just because someone does something that is recorded in scripture, that doesn't necessarily mean God condones it, and I would agree.

    However, the difference is, Rahab is directly commended for helping the spies in the New Testament. Twice;
    Hebrews 11:31 (NIV)
    By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

    James 2:25 (NIV)
    In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?

    You will find no such scripture for Noah getting drunk, or Abraham lying to Pharaoh, or Sarah laughing at God's promise of a child, or Isacc surrendering his birthright, or Moses disobedience to God, or David's adultery with Bathsheba or the murder of her husband. That is the difference.

    These types of arguments gloss over the fact that twice in the New Testament, Rahab is directly commended and "considered righteous" by giving "lodging to the spies and [sending] them off in a different direction". Scripture doesn't say what some people are saying, that Rahab lacked faith in God and shouldn't have lied, nor does it even imply that Rahab should have been ashamed of that act. Quite to the contrary, it specifically says that it was by faith that Rahab welcomed the spies.

    That's why in my very first post, I commented about the cognitive dissonance Christians seem to display concerning Rahab's lie. Scripture commends her and says she was "considered righteous" because she hid the spies, and the way she did that was by blatantly lying to their pursuers.

    This is the crux of the situation with Rahab, and why people would prefer we not talk about it. Scripture doesn't even begin to imply that Rahab was wrong in what she did. Quite to the contrary, scripture calls her righteous and says she acted by faith.

    The bottom line is, this is a difficult moral quandary. We know as Christians we're not supposed to lie, but we also know that we should help others. Should we willingly and knowingly surrender a person to someone who seeks to do that person harm, or should we protect them at all costs? Should we not violate our own conscience so that we feel good about doing "the right thing" at the expense of another person's well being?

    These are the questions this thread is discussing. We're not talking about just lying for the heck of it. We're not trying to justify lying. These are all false witnesses. We are simply saying that because of the fallen nature of this world, there are very real situations that exist that present moral quandaries where no available option is ideal. I hope and pray that no one here ever finds themselves in such a situation.

    :cool:
     
  11. murjahel

    murjahel Senior Veteran

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    THAT HAPPENS to me all the time,
    I can address the subject and some then
    seem to try to apply it as though I had
    called them by name...
     
  12. Svt4Him

    Svt4Him Legend Supporter

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    You do know what cognitive dissonance is? That is directed not at the discussion but at the people taking part of the discussion. Then when talking about how some people seem to be enamoured by their theology, it again is directed at the people of the discussion, not the discussion itself. So to answer your question, yes I do. But when you seem confortable to address posts questioning people's reasoning skills and addressing their theology, I have to wonder if you do as well.

    And offense? No offense, I'm simply pointing out how we all seem to have a self-serving bias that prevents us from realizing how we may be part of the problem rather than part of the solution. But sometimes people make general statements to no one in particular simply because they don't have... see how my general statement is actually specific regardless of if I address it to anyone?
     
  13. dustyf

    dustyf Newbie

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    Which is worse, being addicted to cocaine or sugar? We have a socialized gospel. The only standard we can rely on is being identified by our Father as spirit and what He has done and said about that relationship.
     
  14. murjahel

    murjahel Senior Veteran

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    The argument of silence, in the story of Rahab, is weak. Because she is not condemned for lying, and because she is commended for hiding them, does not mean that 'lying' is permissible. The silence is equal to the silence on her harlotry. That is mentioned, at the same time as the lying, but not condemned.. That does not mean it is permissible, for that silence. She was still a heathen when she had the spies arrive, she began to move toward God at that time, but had a long ways to do...

    Lying is always regarded as wrong, evil, and an abomination, when talked about in the Bible... the argument that the silence in the story of Rahab is a weak one...

    The punishment meted out for liars, who do not repent, is the severest kind.

    They are positively and absolutely excluded from heaven, Rev 21:7-8, 22:15, says all of the liars, and those who love lies, go to the lake of fire;

    Ananias and Sapphira lie about the offering they gave, and are struck dead. Acts 5:1-11

    Psalms 5:6 tells us that God will “destroy them that speak lies” ,

    Proverbs 19:5 tells us that “he that uttereth lies shall not escape”

    No worship is allowed or accepted from liars.
    Psalm 24:3-4 (KJV)
    3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
    4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.

    Lying is not only of great judgment, but it is a subtle, sneaky sin. Some lies are 'half truths' and yet still considered lies.

    The devils temptation of Eve had half truths...
    'ye shall not surely die', and her body did not die that day, but her spirit did.. (Gen. 3)


    Jacob deceived his father, to get the blessing of the firstborn that he was supposed to get anyhow.. Gen 27:19... yet, that lie was serious to God, and
    was not something Jacob was ever proud of...

    Lies illustrate a low level of spiritual depth in a person, as in Joseph's brothers, bringing the bloody coat of Joseph to their father, and then living that lie for many years, continually having to keep truth from their father. Gen 37:31-32

    Gehazi, in order to satisfy a covetous desire for possessions, lied about Elisha to Naaman
    who had been healed of his leprosy.. the punishment for that lie is severe... “The leprosy therefore of Naaman shall cleave unto thee, and unto thy seed for ever. And he went out from his presence a leper as white as snow” II Kings 5:22-27

    Peter’s denial of Jesus can make us shudder to think it possible for a follower of Christ not just lie, but to also 'swear to' that lie, Matthew 26:72.

    Lying is serious... There are no verses commending it, and the 'silence' argument for the woman who hid some spies, and just because the 'lie' that she used after hiding them, is not condemned, means we ignore all the other direct references to the horrible sin of lying... that is not wise ...
     
  15. murjahel

    murjahel Senior Veteran

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    very good answer...

    I think you felt he was speaking of you,
    and perhaps he was, but I think he
    was aiming at me...
    perhaps it was both of us, and others...
    who knows...?

    but, I think it is best to discuss
    the subject..
    when there are two sides to the argument,
    we sometimes need to speak of the
    other side of the argument...
    if we truly believe what we are saying,
    and trust the Scriptures we are showing,

    if that sparks anger at me for that,
    it is fine...
    but, then we sometimes have to speak
    of the other side...
    and why that argument they present
    does not make Scriptural sense to us...

     
  16. probinson

    probinson Legend

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    Yes. Do you?

    Cognitive dissonance is the state of having inconsistent thoughts. Believing that Rahab was blessed for helping the spies while also believing that it had nothing to do with her lie is a prime example of cognitive dissonance.

    Saying someone has inconsistent thoughts is not an "ad hominem" attack. Saying someone sounds like they're a heathen in a bar who has never heard of Jesus, or comparing them to a well known cult leader, those are both ad hominem attacks. ;)

    It is absolutely directed at the inconsistency in the discussion.

    Again, that is very pertinent to the discussion. Some people do seem to be enamored with their theology to me, unable to see that Rahab was not wrong in what she did. People have suggested in this thread that Rahab was wrong for lying, yet scripture says nothing of the sort. Scripture commends Rahab for hiding the spies, period. It does not commend her for hiding the spies, but then tack on a "but she should be ashamed for lying to their pursuers" as some in this thread have intimated. So we see people who are indeed enamored by their theology, adding to scripture to make the situation with Rahab fit inside their theological box, rather than simply reading what it says.

    I don't think you do. Had I just said that people had inconsistent thoughts with nothing to back it up, you might possibly have a point. However, I illustrated what those inconsistent thoughts were as it pertained to our discussion. You don't have to agree, but it is not an ad hominem attack when I point out obvious inconsistency in someone's logic.

    Well, I just explained it, but I doubt that will change your opinion.

    That's a fair observation.

    :cool:
     
  17. probinson

    probinson Legend

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    There is no "silence" in the argument presented. Rahab is directly commended for hiding the spies.

    First of all, no one is attempting to argue that "lying" in general is "permissible". We're not talking about trying to justify lying as a lifestyle, or even as something we do when we think it's the best response, but rather are talking about very specific and extreme circumstances that Rahab found herself in.

    Secondly, the word "hiding" in itself implies deceit. Simply hiding the spies was an act of deceit. Here is the actual account of the situation from Joshua 2;
    Joshua 2:2-7 (NIV)
    The king of Jericho was told, “Look, some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land.” So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.”

    But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. At dusk, when it was time to close the city gate, they left. I don’t know which way they went. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them.” (But she had taken them up to the roof and hidden them under the stalks of flax she had laid out on the roof.) So the men set out in pursuit of the spies on the road that leads to the fords of the Jordan, and as soon as the pursuers had gone out, the gate was shut.

    There's a few things worth noting here; first, Rahab was directly questioned about the spies whereabouts, and blatantly lied about it. She had hidden the spies in an attempt to deceive the king's messengers before she ever opened her mouth.

    Secondly, everyone wants to talk about how Rahab was still a "heathen" and didn't know any better, but what about the spies that Joshua sent who were hiding? These spies were most certainly not "heathens" and they were most certainly complicit in Rahab's lie no matter how you look at it. Further, there is no record that those spies scolded her for lying. Why would they agree to be hidden, and place Rahab in a situation where she would have to choose between surrendering them or lying? Why wouldn't they just surrender themselves in faith and allow God to do a miracle for them as some have speculated Rahab should have done if she'd "known better"? The fact remains that those men of God were complicit in Rahab's lie.

    If this were the end and Rahab were never mentioned again, we'd be left in to speculate on our own about her lie. But it isn't, and scripture is not "silent" on her actions, as we'll see.

    If the account of Joshua 2 were the only account we had, that would be true.

    However in the following 2 scriptures from the New Testament show just how "weak" the argument is that scripture is "silent" on her actions;
    Hebrews 11:31 (NIV)
    By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

    James 2:25 (NIV)
    In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
    A few things to note here as well; first, you'll note that Rahab's harlotry is not what is commended here, so to continue to bring it up is simply an attempt to distract from what is actually stated. James 2:25 specifically says that Rahab was considered righteous "for what she did". What did she do? She gave lodging to the spies, hid them, and sent them off in a different direction. How did she do that? By lying to the king's men and deceiving them.

    Hebrews 11:31 goes so far as to say that Rahab acted by faith because she "welcomed the spies".

    It's a pretty "weak" argument to say that these scriptures do not directly commend Rahab for her actions. We see nowhere that her lie was something she should not have done, nor that she should be ashamed of it. To the contrary, scripture says she acted by faith and was considered righteous. It does not say, "she was a heathen had a long way to go". It says that she was considered righteous because she welcomed the spies, hid them (which clearly involved lying to the king's men) and sent them another way so that they wouldn't get caught.

    :cool:
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2011
  18. murjahel

    murjahel Senior Veteran

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    Hiding them is not deceit, it is not commanded we are not to try to hide
    someone in danger...

    lying is commanded against... it is a separate act...

    she hid them, then she lied...
    God commends the first, silence to the second, for her motive was right, but God still does not condone lying...

    If 'hiding' is deceit' then are clothes hiding our body to be considered 'lying'... no, but they cover what no one has a right to see...
    pulling down the blinds on your windows is not deceit, it is protecting one's privacy...
    those men had no right to take and kill the spies, she was not deceiving, nor sinning by hiding them,
    she hid them, to protect them, that is good, that is all the Bible says..

    silence on the lying is not approval

    Hebrews 11:31 (NIV)
    By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.

    James 2:25 (NIV)
    In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?


    Hebrews 11:31 says that Rahab acted by faith because she "welcomed the spies". Never in the Bible is lying called 'acting by faith'... it is not faitih, it is from its father the devil... and he certainly is not considered an instigator of faith...

    If someone fed some starving children, that is good... if they did it by robbing a bank, that part is bad.... if someone commends the feeding of the children that is what is commended... not the robbing of the bank...

    The Bible is in harmony, it has no discrepancies... it often says that lying is bad... needs repented of, and lying is never condoned by God... and all liars have the same punishment,

    Repentance is more likely for liars, if we don't try to justify lying as being sometimes good... it never is good...

    God commended her action of hiding them, not the lie that followed... God would have saved them if she had not lied...

    As with Corrie Ten Boom there are ways to talk without lying, and without giving away the secret one wants to not divulge.... Most know how to do that... Corrie Ten Boom did...

    What if Rahab had started telling the men there about what she had heard of God's powers ... of the parting of the waters, of the manna in the desert, of the Rock that spilled forth waters, of the enemies that had defeat with God's help... could God have filled them with fear, and they went away not wanting to find the men? I think God would have had more commendation for Rahab then, not less .... she did not need to lie to help God... it was her heathen training still there, that gave her that motivation... Blessedly, she learned to serve God by His laws, or she would have suffered judgment under the law...

    Corrie Ten Boom liked the latter method of changing the subject from what the interrogators wanted to know, rather than lying, by far... she rejoiced in the winning of souls that the method of bragging on God did, over the sorrow and shame, and failure of the one lie she had told had done to her...
     
  19. probinson

    probinson Legend

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    You say that Rahab was right in "hiding" the spies, but to hide the spies, she directly lied to the king's men. Additionally, the spies, men of God, were complicit in that lie.

    There is no "silence". As I've shown from scripture, Rahab was commended twice for acting by faith and considered righteous for what she did.

    What does this have to do with anything?

    Rahab hid the spies by lying to the king's men. Her obvious intent was to deceive them and make them believe that they were not there in response to their direct command for her to bring them out.

    Nor was she sinning by lying to the king's men, at least not according to scripture.

    She protected them by lying, by deceiving the king's men, making them believe that they had been at her house but were now gone.

    Then why were those spies, those men of God, who were hiding complicit in her lie? Why didn't they correct her, like you're trying to do?

    But may in extremely rare and extreme circumstances be the best choice, as the story of Rahab clearly illustrates.

    This is cognitive dissonance. I don't care if someone thinks that's an "ad hominem" or not. Scripture is clear that Rahab's lie was very much a part of how she hid the spies. They are not separate acts.

    100% speculation.

    Besides, if that were the case, the spies shouldn't have hid at all. According to your argument, they must have lacked faith by their complicity in allowing Rahab to lie for them. They should have just come forward and said, "here we are" and let God save them.

    So, coming up with ways to deceive without actually lying? Sounds like a game of semantics to me.

    100% speculation.

    Yes, I know that's what you think, but it's not what scripture actually says. Scripture commends her for helping the spies get away, and she helped the spies get away by lying.

    This completely ignores the spies hiding on the roof, and their complicity in Rahab's lie. These were men of God, not people of "heathen training", who hid and allowed Rahab to lie for them.

    I think it's sad that people are made to feel shame by others for protecting people from evil.

    :cool:
     
  20. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Did the thief on the cross have a "long ways to go"?
     
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