Is it okay to lie?

probinson

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I just realized I did not quote you before saying that, and I didn't mean to infer that is what you said, I appologize for that.

No problem. If that's not what you meant, then I believe you and thank you for your apology.

Go back and see when the ad hominem first started Pete, you will find that maybe you are part of the problem as well? No, you'll most likely deny it. ^_^

That's good advice.

Things said by people who think Rahab was wrong for lying (despite scripture commending her for it, twice ;));

Post #14: "Weak character"
Post #76: "Looking for an excuse for lying"
Post #110: "weak in faith"
Post #116: "not much faith left, it seems..."
Post #125: "I feel like I am explaining this in a 'bar' where there are people who never knew our God ... "
Post #204: "guess in some churches all they hear is about how you get rich being a Christian... no sacrifice... their message is take up your stock portfolio and follow ..."
Post #253: "who do we want to be like? (please don't answer... some of you I have seen would answer in a way that grieves)"

If you'd like, you're free to do the same and go compile a list of my ad hominem attacks.

:cool:
 
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probinson

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In searching the net for information on Corrie Ten Boom, I ran across this blog;

The Life and Times of the Mangine Many: We didn't lie to the Nazis

This demonstrates some very real life consequences of discussions like this one. These people are helping tons of kids, and I am believing that the story with this abused girl is not over yet and God will deliver her.

:cool:
 
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Svt4Him

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Love the story on that link:

That question comes to mind often: Would it have been okay to lie to the Nazis about hiding Jews?

Corrie ten Boom's sister Nollie never lied. Ever. Corrie tells the story of how Nazi's came into their home and asked Nollie if a specific girl was a Jew. Nollie - true to character said yes, she was a Jew. Everyone thought she was nuts? Why didn't she lie to the Gestapo about AnnaLiese?

Corrie wrote: "How could she sing when she had betrayed another human being?"

Nollie sent a message to Corrie. She said, "No harm will come to the girl because I obeyed God." And within 6 days, there had been a jail break where Annaliese was being held, and she was one of those that escaped. She didn't go in to Germany.

Gwenn, I cannot promise you that no harm will come to this precious girl. I cannot promise that she will soon be in your home for good. And if you get tired of me saying these things I understand. =D You showed a little girl love. You did what God told you to do. GOD alone is the defender of the defenseless. He ALONE is the Father to the Fatherless. HE takes care of the widow and the oppressed...and sometimes he blesses us with that particular job.

you couldn't save her, because she was never in your hands. She is in God's hands...and He has a plan and reason for bringing her into your home.

Rebekah
 
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murjahel

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I understand that many fear a time of having to choose between a lie and the death of a loved one... These would seldom come, and most of you probably have never come to such a time....

I enjoyed refreshing my memory, and learning a few new things about Corrie Ten Boom... she had to lie once, thinking the lives of some of the Jewish people hiding in her home would die if she did not.

They had prepared for that kind of event, having many answers ready for questions that would not be lies, but would spare the ones in hiding.

A young boy who knew of the hiding ones, was captured, and they realized that he was not strong enough to keep the secret... Suddenly the Nazis were at the door, she did utter a lie, feeling awful about it... the Nazis knew already about the hiding place, so the lie saved no one...

Corrie and her father, and others were arrested with all the Jewish who were hiding... she felt awful.. she saw her lie had not helped, she repented and determined never to lie again...

She spent some days being interrogated, and with wise answers never had to lie, but did win the interrogator to the Lord... later, one of the other ones arrested was released and shipper Corrie a package... under the postage stamp she sent a message, in code... the message let Corrie know that none of the Jewish people that had been arrested in her house were still captive ... God had gotten them free...

A lie had not worked... she repented... she found ways to not lie, still not cause anyone to be in jeopardy, and God did miracles...

We need not lie... Jesus is the Truth, He will lead us into truth, bless us for the truth... do miracles to bless those who speak the Truth in love...

does God want or make it right to lie? ever? NO, He does not, NEVER !
 
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murjahel

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the phrase has been used of 'ad hominem' attacks...
thought I would clarify what is being asserted by that wording...

got this off the internet, it makes that 'charge' to be more understandable,
as to what they are charging....

There are three major forms of Attacking the Person:
  • Ad hominem (abusive): instead of attacking an assertion, the argument attacks the person who made the assertion.
  • Ad hominem (circumstantial): instead of attacking an assertion the author points to the relationship between the person making the assertion and the person's circumstances.
  • Ad hominem (tu quoque): this form of attack on the person notes that a person does not practise what he preaches.
Examples:
  • You may argue that God doesn't exist, but you are just a fat idiot. (ad hominem abusive)
  • We should discount what Steve Forbes says about cutting taxes because he stands to benefit from a lower tax rate. (ad hominem circumstantial)
  • We should disregard Fred's argument because he is just angry about the fact that defendant once cheated him out of $100. (ad hominem circumstantial)
  • You say I should give up alcohol, but you haven't been sober for more than a year yourself. (ad hominem tu quoque)
  • You claim that Mr. Jones is innocent, but why should anyone listen to you? You are a Mormon after all. (ad hominem circumstantial)
now, back to the discussion of whether it is ever right to lie...
 
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murjahel

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Rahab became a great woman of God
I am sure she was not proud of not trusting God
while she was hiding the spies

Our faith should be great... we claim to be Spirit filled...
the Spirit gives us 'power', dunamis power...

God never wants us to 'lie' to see His power...
The words we are told to speak are 'rhema' words,
not 'lying words'..

if we are intimidated, made to fear,
that we think a lie is the best answer,
that is not the feeling coming from God...

we are to have faith, trust in the Lord...
we should have 'faith and miracles'
not 'lies and consequences'...

the devil is called the 'father of lies'...
and the fear it takes to 'lie' is no where
as glorious as the 'faith that brings miracles....

Rahab was blessed for her hiding the spies on the roof...
the lie she added to that good thing
she did is never blessed by God...

it is time we realize we are further along
in our spiritual lives
than she was at that moment,
and we need to show it in our actions...


selah !
 
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mammut

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wow this is a big dispute ... I'm on post #116 however it gave me a lot to think about ...

in case it hasn't been said yet ...

remember that of all sins - God is looking at what happened in the heart of the person who committed the act to determine if it's a sin ...

"usually" the sin could be defined as being done from the heart - for the sinners personal gain

in the case of Jesus healing the sick on Sabbath ... he was doing someone a favor ... also he said that he was the Lord of the Sabbath; since the word said he hasn't sinned so he was either justified or the sin wasn't counted as a sin or the commandmants are not a full revelation of the law (think love law) ... and maybe the sin has to be committed from the heart with the intention of someone's personal profit

Also note that God is the final judge ... doesn't the scripture say: eye for eye and life for life ... yet when David killed Uriah ... God did not nor anyone else required David to die ... instead the penalty was "moved" to the next generation and David even tried to get it forgiven ...

Simply certain things are not counted as sin. However for 99% of uses without the law there would be chaos.

Remember the people who unintentionally murdered someone ... the 100% law follower who doesn't have a witness proving the "guilty" innocent - he would look to stone a "murderer"; however God provided some ways of escape for such people from "justice"

So I would be more inclined to the law of love and to the final Judge who knows better than we do (he knows more and looks into the heart). Just in case if in doubt ask for forgiveness so that your conscience doesn't keep you from the throne room of God (since like in the case of Paul talking about eating food offered for idols ... event if it's not a sin someone conscience can isolate that someone from God and his provision)
 
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JimB

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wow this is a big dispute ... I'm on post #116 however it gave me a lot to think about ...

in case it hasn't been said yet ...

remember that of all sins - God is looking at what happened in the heart of the person who committed the act to determine if it's a sin ...

"usually" the sin could be defined as being done from the heart - for the sinners personal gain

in the case of Jesus healing the sick on Sabbath ... he was doing someone a favor ... also he said that he was the Lord of the Sabbath; since the word said he hasn't sinned so he was either justified or the sin wasn't counted as a sin or the commandmants are not a full revelation of the law (think love law) ... and maybe the sin has to be committed from the heart with the intention of someone's personal profit

Also note that God is the final judge ... doesn't the scripture say: eye for eye and life for life ... yet when David killed Uriah ... God did not nor anyone else required David to die ... instead the penalty was "moved" to the next generation and David even tried to get it forgiven ...

Simply certain things are not counted as sin. However for 99% of uses without the law there would be chaos.

Remember the people who unintentionally murdered someone ... the 100% law follower who doesn't have a witness proving the "guilty" innocent - he would look to stone a "murderer"; however God provided some ways of escape for such people from "justice"

So I would be more inclined to the law of love and to the final Judge who knows better than we do (he knows more and looks into the heart). Just in case if in doubt ask for forgiveness so that your conscience doesn't keep you from the throne room of God (since like in the case of Paul talking about eating food offered for idols ... event if it's not a sin someone conscience can isolate that someone from God and his provision)
IMO, there is some confusion on what the "law of love" is. Can it be love if it is something that is in direct violation of the expressed wilkl of God? How can it be if it doesn't flow to and from God? Jesus (who is "Truth," John 14.6) said that if we loved Him we would obey His commands (John 14.15-24; 15.10) and I have listed in posts #'s 27 & 28 some 100 scriptures that tell us how God feels about truthfulness and lying. And, please note, there is not one scripture--not one!--that directly and unambiguously tells us that God, who does not lie (Titus 1.2), in any way approves of lying (and I have asked for a such scripture several times in this thread). That's because there is no scripture that tells us that God allows us to lie and, in fact, in Eph. 4.25 we are told clearly, "Therefore, putting away lying, let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor."

~Jim
 
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murjahel

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That's because there is no scripture that tells us that God allows us to lie and, in fact, in Eph. 4.25 we are told clearly, "Therefore, putting away lying, let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor."

~Jim
very true...

and examples they use to justify the lies
do not hold up...
Corrie Ten Boom lied once...
it did no good, the ones in her home
were arrested...
God miraculously got them released instead of killed,
and then, truth telling, speaking wisely but truthfully
led to the salvation of her interrogator...

lying would have let that soul go to hell...

but her truthful, but wise answers led to her
captor being saved...

she regretted greatly that one lie...

conscience is fantastic..
some get greatly agitated
trying to convince themselves more than they
are trying to convince others...

Jesus is our example of how to live,
how to answer those hypothetical situations
presented... speak as He would...
i.e. truthfully, wisely...

wise as serpents, harmless as doves
 
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mammut

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If that were true, why did the OT have to sacrifice for sins someone didn't now they did? If their heart didn't even know they sinned, by that reasoning they would simply be forgiven without a sacrifice?

I don't think that the backwards reasoning works here in this case .... If you have sinned it doesn't matter if you know know it or not (in that case if you don't know it then your heart is stubborn and hard or you simply missed it). According to God's word every sin needs to be paid for.

So if "their heart didn't even know they sinned" doesn't mean that they would be forgiven because if they sinned then they are guilty if they know it or not ..

doesn't it make biblical sense ? it seems kind of easy ...
 
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brinny

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I understand that many fear a time of having to choose between a lie and the death of a loved one... These would seldom come, and most of you probably have never come to such a time....

I enjoyed refreshing my memory, and learning a few new things about Corrie Ten Boom... she had to lie once, thinking the lives of some of the Jewish people hiding in her home would die if she did not.

They had prepared for that kind of event, having many answers ready for questions that would not be lies, but would spare the ones in hiding.

A young boy who knew of the hiding ones, was captured, and they realized that he was not strong enough to keep the secret... Suddenly the Nazis were at the door, she did utter a lie, feeling awful about it... the Nazis knew already about the hiding place, so the lie saved no one...

Corrie and her father, and others were arrested with all the Jewish who were hiding... she felt awful.. she saw her lie had not helped, she repented and determined never to lie again...

She spent some days being interrogated, and with wise answers never had to lie, but did win the interrogator to the Lord... later, one of the other ones arrested was released and shipper Corrie a package... under the postage stamp she sent a message, in code... the message let Corrie know that none of the Jewish people that had been arrested in her house were still captive ... God had gotten them free...

A lie had not worked... she repented... she found ways to not lie, still not cause anyone to be in jeopardy, and God did miracles...

We need not lie... Jesus is the Truth, He will lead us into truth, bless us for the truth... do miracles to bless those who speak the Truth in love...

does God want or make it right to lie? ever? NO, He does not, NEVER !

Did Rahab lie?
 
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brinny

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rahab was, when this happened a harlot, the Bible tells us that... she was still just hearing about God,
after Jericho fell, she was blessed to travel with Israel, settle down, become part of the lineage of Jesus...


but... what she was when she lied is what I am discussing...
that is not downgrading Rahab as a person, for what she became...
surely, she deserves to be in the list of those with faith...

but that does not justify her sins of harlotry or of lying... that is what I am showing...


David belongs in that list too, he was a man after God's own heart... but that does not make his sin of adultery and planning the death of a woman's husband to be good and all right for us to imitate...


she is now forgiven and in heaven...
and likely still ashamed she lied to try to help a God Who needed no help..

well, the Bible speaks of Moses' sin, David's,
Peter's, Paul's... and we don't take those sins and glorify them as being all right, because
those men of faith did them...

it is just here with rahab, in order to validate and condone lies some want to justify, they use her sinful, heathen times as their proof it is all right....


it is not all right ...

Jesus is the One we are to be like,
not Rahab in her heathen time...

Abraham lied.
 
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Svt4Him

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I don't think that the backwards reasoning works here in this case .... If you have sinned it doesn't matter if you know know it or not (in that case if you don't know it then your heart is stubborn and hard or you simply missed it). According to God's word every sin needs to be paid for.

So if "their heart didn't even know they sinned" doesn't mean that they would be forgiven because if they sinned then they are guilty if they know it or not ..

doesn't it make biblical sense ? it seems kind of easy ...

Weird, you seem to be saying two different things even though I agree, it does seem kind of easy. And I agree, something is backwards herre.

Remember that of all sins - God is looking at what happened in the heart of the person who committed the act to determine if it's a sin ...
 
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mammut

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IMO, there is some confusion on what the "law of love" is. Can it be love if it is something that is in direct violation of the expressed wilkl of God? How can it be if it doesn't flow to and from God? Jesus (who is "Truth," John 14.6) said that if we loved Him we would obey His commands (John 14.15-24; 15.10) and I have listed in posts #'s 27 & 28 some 100 scriptures that tell us how God feels about truthfulness and lying. And, please note, there is not one scripture--not one!--that directly and unambiguously tells us that God, who does not lie (Titus 1.2), in any way approves of lying (and I have asked for a such scripture several times in this thread). That's because there is no scripture that tells us that God allows us to lie and, in fact, in Eph. 4.25 we are told clearly, "Therefore, putting away lying, let each one of you speak truth with his neighbor."

~Jim

I agree with you. The scripture against lying is abounding.

However as the bible says we don't have the full revelation ... plus the bible said that Jesus fulfilled the law (never sinned against it), yet he was healing during the Sabbath or he even told the healed men to carry his bed ... so from the strict point of view (human point of view) he did seem to break the commandment. However yet we are told he did not.

So I agree with you with a possible exception that we might not have the full revelation. God is the final judge and we do know that we don't have the full knowledge of Him and his ways. That's why we are to walk by faith ... follow him and commune with him daily and not just have the set of rules to substitute God and the relationship with Him.

So here it's 50/50 in those "special" situations ... I am not God (so I don't know the answer) however I prefer not to close my mind by accepting the 100% solution since the bible shows us sometimes a few exceptions - that we are blind and do not always see clearly.

However thank God even though we might make mistakes and sin he has provided for the sin...

-----

like someone cited before from Revelations ... all the liars will be cast to hell...
Jesus also said that if someone denies him in front of the people ... he will also deny the person in heaven ...

yet clearly we see that Peter denied him and yet he was forgiven; so the 100% logic cannot be applied here; and God/Jesus cannot lie so we simply did not get the full revelation when He spoke that verse ... that you can be forgiven ... or if you repent then you will be forgiven as he said before

now if you are stuck denying the Lord all your life then good luck to you...

----

I'm just saying lets be open for things that agree with the word ... the Bible is not condoning lying as a way of life and that's pretty clear to everyone ...
 
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brinny

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I agree with you. The scripture against lying is abounding.

However as the bible says we don't have the full revelation ... plus the bible said that Jesus fulfilled the law (never sinned against it), yet he was healing during the Sabbath or he even told the healed men to carry his bed ... so from the strict point of view (human point of view) he did seem to break the commandment. However yet we are told he did not.

So I agree with you with a possible exception that we might not have the full revelation. God is the final judge and we do know that we don't have the full knowledge of Him and his ways. That's why we are to walk by faith ... follow him and not just have the set of rules instead of a God.

So here it's 50/50 in those "special" situations ... I am not God and I will not close my mind to a 100% solution since the bible shows sometimes exceptions - that we are blind and do not always see clearly.

However thank God even though we might make mistakes and sin he has provided for the sin...

-----

like someone cited before from Revelations ... all the liars will be cast to hell...
Jesus also said that if someone denies him in front of the people ... he will also deny the person in heaven ...

yet clearly we see that Peter denied him and yet he was forgiven; so the 100% logic cannot be applied here; and God/Jesus cannot lie so we simply did not get the full revelation when He spoke that verse ... that you can be forgiven ... or if you repent then you will be forgiven as he said before

now if you are stuck denying the Lord all your life then good luck to you...

----

I'm just saying lets be open for things that agree with the word ... the Bible is not condoning lying as a way of life and that's pretty clear to everyone ...

Aah, yes, looking to the "heart" of God and "Who" He is. He is the epitome of justice, mercy, and defending the defenseless. It's written all throughout His Word. This verse is the epitome of His heart:

"And above all things have fervent love among yourselves: for love shall cover a multitude of sins." ~1Peter 4:8
 
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mammut

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Would God put us in that position? No. Would evil human beings put us in that position? Perhaps.

Please consider the following, which I repost from before, and answer the question that follows:

Let's say that you are a Christian living in Nazi Germany. You learn that there is a family of Jews that has taken up residence in a hidden compartment in your neighbor's home. One day, a German soldier comes knocking at your door and says, "we have received information that there may be Jews hiding in your neighbor's home and that you know if this information is true." As far as I can tell, you have three choices:

(a) Tell the soldier "yes, the tip you received is true."
(b) Say nothing or attempt to evade the question, or
(c) Tell the soldier a lie.

Which is the morally best answer to this question? (And remember, since the illustration assumes that you know the truth, "I don't know" would still be a lie).

I would like to point out that depending on the circumstances both Yes and No might be correct answers:

a) from the Bible we know that God allowed for Jews to fall into enemy hands because of their own ways and that they did not repent; the fact of Nazi Germany shouldn't hardly be exception from this ... it's not the first time ...

Just imagine that God told Abraham that his offspring will be slaves in Egypt because of something ... or that there was a famine because Saul killed Gibeonites that deceitfully made a coventant with Jews ...

so it could be the correct answer would be "YES" if God allowed them to be punished

b) even if (a) would be true we know that God is a merciful God and based on the previous promises He would not destroy the Jews completely so if it were these were chosen to be speared "NO" would be the right answer

c) finally if the circumstances did not happen because of their sin and God allowing them to eat the punishment (eg: simply enemy the devil tried to destroy them without a reason) ... or maybe if they somehow atoned with God (got "a deal") then the right answer would be "NO" since God in that case would want to spare them

c1) or maybe not ... as someone said if God wants to spare he can do so without our help BUT we see in the Bible that many times he uses us to carry his will without the supernatural

So now you have it... I do not believe it's just black and white but we have to be tuned in and flow with Him. I also believe in all those circumstances we probably would do according to His will anyways ... since we know he can influence the heart (as in Pharaoh and Moses)

So the point is to be righteous in Christ and become more like Him and not just following the letter.
 
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dustyf

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Why would such a question about lying be in the heart? You know it's wrong or you would not ask. God is not a man such that He would, or even could lie. What is He if not a man? He is Spirit, The Supreme Spirit Being! What is man? He is defined by His Father as spirit.

The Bible says good overcomes evil. Not in the worldly viewpoint. Since good is the highest expression of the kingdom of God, a spirit realm, and lying should be put away from us, where else can we settle as His children but lying is a fruit of darkness, not good. The Holy Ghost uses our situations to expose the content of the heart. If we miss the experience as coming from Him we will fail to respond and get free. What response? "Yes Lord I see the issue and I give you full access to bring change. If You do or don't I leave this with You." Then allow no further thought. There are not accidents, every situation we experience is designed and orchestrated by Him.
 
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