Is it okay to lie?

[JimB]

The Government made a law against speeding and state that those who break the speed limit will be ticketed and then eventually lose their right to drive if they get too many tickets.

Does it make the Government liars because they allow exceptions for ambulances and polices vehicles and might even wave the ticket for an individual who had exceptional circumstances ?

Did God lie about commanding us to keep the Sabbath ? Do you keep the Sabbath ? The same ten Commandments that command us against false witness also command us to keep Sabbath .




Does it make God a liar if he allows some to not keep Sabbath and does not count it as sin ?




Can't have one without the other. If we are going to be legalistic about lying , then we need to be legalistic about all of God's commandments.

You certainly are stretching the point to find justification for lying. Telling the truth is not being legalistic, it's being like Jesus Christ (who never lied), and He, not you, is our Great Example. If following Christ's example is legalism to you, then I don't know what else to say.

~Jim

 

[probinson]

Pete, you are so quick to accuse me of lying

Actually, I'm accusing you of bearing false witness against people you seem to disagree with.

and so quick to accuse others of using strawman arguments.

When you make statements completely out of left field implying that somewhere I've said that Bible contains the "suggestions" of God when I've said no such thing, then I will call you on it. Every time.

My example is specific to this statement. So I will not address everything else.

Of course you won't. I showed you a very straightforward unambiguous scripture, which says that rebellion against established authority is tantamount to rebellion against God. That's why I asked, and you've yet to answer, if it was against the established authority of the country where the woman in your example was smuggling Bibles. That's extremely relevant to this discussion.

So let me focus on this if I may becaues that's where I see your strawman. I do beleive the word of God as being the Bible.

I believe the words of God are recorded in a book we call the Bible, but I believe the Word of God is a Person, has existed from the beginning, was made flesh to dwell among us, and now lives inside of each and everyone of us.

That is why I beleive if God tells you something that goes against the word of God, you judge it by the Bible to determine if it is in fact the Word of God. The Bible is the plumb-line you use to weigh all words you hear inside you.

Can I ask if you simply agree to this or not?

I think we'd all agree to that, but clearly, even though you believe you're weighing everything against the Bible, and I believe I'm weighing everything against the Bible, and we can both use scripture to make our points, there's more to it than that, or else we'd all just agree all the time.

I long ago stopped arguing that I was the one following the Bible while others weren't, because that is perhaps one of the most pride-filled statements a person can make. It fails to recognize that we see though a glass dimly, and that we don't have all the answers. It demeans and diminishes other people who see things a bit differently.

The fact is, each and everyone of us who uses the Bible as a "plumb line" does so with our own biases, experiences and agendas clouding the absolute Truth contained in those scriptures. That's why we need the Holy Spirit (not dogmatic, legalistic rules) to lead and guide us into all the Truth, not only contained in Scripture, but also the Truth spoken to us every single day.

 

[JimB]

*****

I am with others on here that would lie to save someone's life.

This is not about what you would do, this is about what is the right/righteous thing to do. Would God lie to us? Did Jesus ever lie? In fact, Jesus told his disciples plainly that they would "drink of the cup I drink from" if they continued to follow Him. He did not lie to save their lives; He told them the truth.

~Jim

 

[probinson]

One of the things about this issue that makes it difficult to relax about it is that the mindset and attitude being portrayed in this thread is what many would consider to be , the worst of the worst of Christianity. Meaning , that some have reduced The bible and even God himself to a set of dogmatic and legalistic rules. Even to the point of having more concern for their legalistic rules than they do for the oppression of humans held as slaves or people being killed and tortured.

This is pretty much how much of the world sees Christianity. As an intolerant religion that is full of pride and judgement and sets it's rules above people. In other words , it is a religion that claims that it is all about love but in reality it chooses another agenda over love almost every time. This is the accusation that many level at the church on the basis of interacting with Christians.

I don't think that it gets any more basic than this discussion. Given a choice between love and rules , some choose love and some choose rules. Some have pretended to not understand the points being made and twist it into something else. But it really is that simple. Love or rules ?

I've abbreviated this post in responding to it, but it is all EXCELLENT! Reps!

 

[probinson]

to use a 'heathen harlot' on the verge of converting
is not a great choice to admire..
​

And yet, of all the many examples of faith in the Bible, very few were chosen for what we often call the "hall of faith" in Hebrews 11. Yet Rahab made that very list, along with;

• Abel
• Enoch
• Noah
• Abraham
• Sarah
• Isaac
• Jacob
• Joseph
• Moses
• Rahab
• Gideon
• Barak
• Samson
• Jephthah
• David
• Samuel

Of all of the great men and women of faith in scripture, only 16 people are named by name in the Hebrews 11 "hall of faith", and Rahab, the "heathen harlot", is counted among those.

While some seem to have a very negative and damning opinion of Rahab, I think Hebrews 11:6 sums it up pretty nicely;

Hebrews 11:6b (NIV)
Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 11:39a (NIV)
These were all commended for their faith
​

 

[Svt4Him]

Of course you won't. I showed you a very straightforward unambiguous scripture, which says that rebellion against established authority is tantamount to rebellion against God. That's why I asked, and you've yet to answer, if it was against the established authority of the country where the woman in your example was smuggling Bibles. That's extremely relevant to this discussion.

In Ukraine right now you are allowed to run a church. The churches there now are being harassed by the police as they want them to shut down. There is no law that says they can't have church, and the police actions are random and political in nature, and vary from officer to officer. My uncle prints a copy of the Ukrainian Bible, is he breaking the law or lying as he gives it to Ukrainian people? The answer to this question is the same as the answer to the lady in my example.

I believe the words of God are recorded in a book we call the Bible, but I believe the Word of God is a Person, has existed from the beginning, was made flesh to dwell among us, and now lives inside of each and everyone of us.

Wow. And I believe if I say you can call the Bible whatever you like, I'm not inferring you've called in anything.

I think we'd all agree to that, but clearly, even though you believe you're weighing everything against the Bible, and I believe I'm weighing everything against the Bible, and we can both use scripture to make our points, there's more to it than that, or else we'd all just agree all the time.

Again this is not correct. I have said that the Character of God is truth, and a lie goes against the very nature of who God is, that is why it's wrong, and I still stand by that.

I long ago stopped arguing that I was the one following the Bible while others weren't, because that is perhaps one of the most pride-filled statements a person can make. It fails to recognize that we see though a glass dimly, and that we don't have all the answers. It demeans and diminishes other people who see things a bit differently.

The fact is, each and everyone of us who uses the Bible as a "plumb line" does so with our own biases, experiences and agendas clouding the absolute Truth contained in those scriptures. That's why we need the Holy Spirit (not dogmatic, legalistic rules) to lead and guide us into all the Truth, not only contained in Scripture, but also the Truth spoken to us every single day.

Great, that's what Joseph W Smith thought as well. I personally believe that is why we need to study to show ourselves approved. But I aslo think we will never see everything the same, but that's a different topic.

 

[Svt4Him]

To make the analogy actually fit , my son who was speeding would have been driving an ambulance bringing a dying person to the hospital. As a judge , I would throw the case out of court and if it were in my power to do so , I would charge the police officer who cost the person their life in order to issue a speeding ticket to an ambulance ...

No, my analogy is specific to love and judgment, not subjective speed situations which get into different areas of law. If you need me to change the analogy let's say he murdered someone, and I'm a judge...etc etc...

So do I understand you correctly that you think God would count it as a sin that the dying man disrupted a church service and violated 1 Corinthians 14:40 by collapsing on the floor dying ??

Nope, I think that with Jesus there is life, without the wrath of God. If the man knew Jesus he's in heaven. I don't really see this going against the character of God.

 

[Svt4Him]

And yet, of all the many examples of faith in the Bible, very few were chosen for what we often call the "hall of faith" in Hebrews 11. Yet Rahab made that very list, along with;

• Abel
• Enoch
• Noah
• Abraham
• Sarah
• Isaac
• Jacob
• Joseph
• Moses
• Rahab
• Gideon
• Barak
• Samson
• Jephthah
• David
• Samuel

Of all of the great men and women of faith in scripture, only 16 people are named by name in the Hebrews 11 "hall of faith", and Rahab, the "heathen harlot", is counted among those.

While some seem to have a very negative and damning opinion of Rahab, I think Hebrews 11:6 sums it up pretty nicely;

Hebrews 11:6b (NIV)
Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

Hebrews 11:39a (NIV)
These were all commended for their faith
​

Please show me a damning opinion of Rahab in this thread. Otherwise this sounds like that false witness thing you were talking about.

 

[probinson]

In Ukraine right now you are allowed to run a church. The churches there now are being harassed by the police as they want them to shut down. There is no law that says they can't have church, and the police actions are random and political in nature, and vary from officer to officer. My uncle prints a copy of the Ukrainian Bible, is he breaking the law or lying as he gives it to Ukrainian people? The answer to this question is the same as the answer to the lady in my example.

Huh?

A simple "yes" or "no" to the question "Was it illegal to bring a Bible into the country?" would have sufficed, but I'll interpret all these verbal gymnastics as a "no".

Wow. And I believe if I say you can call the Bible whatever you like, I'm not inferring you've called in anything.

Sure you have. Here, I'll show you;

...And if you chose to call the Bible the suggestions of God, or whatever else you want to call it, that's fine, I'll stick with the Word of God...

Source

That's a pretty clear implication toward me there, which you'll undoubtedly deny.

Again this is not correct. I have said that the Character of God is truth, and a lie goes against the very nature of who God is, that is why it's wrong, and I still stand by that.

Yes, lying is wrong. Yet Rahab lied to save the spied and was commended for it in scripture, twice.

Great, that's what Joseph W Smith thought as well.

Really? Now you're comparing me to Mormon cult leader, Joseph Smith? Nope, no negative implications there.

Honest and respectful discourse seems to be a lost art with many people in this forum.

Ah well...

 

[probinson]

Please show me a damning opinion of Rahab in this thread. Otherwise this sounds like that false witness thing you were talking about.

This coming from the guy who just said I think like Joseph Smith.

All throughout this thread, we've been told that Rahab was a "heathen harlot" and people have looked down at her, said that she is an invalid example, etc. If you haven't seen it, then I can only conclude that you need to attend that reading seminar that was advertised earlier in this thread yesterday.

 

[brinny]

To defend one from oppressive forces of evil, i would lie, just as Corrie Ten Boom did as she hid the Jewish ones from the Nazi's, and as Rahab did when she hid the apostles, and lied about their whereabouts.....no hesitation.

 

[probinson]

To defend one from oppressive forces of evil, i would lie, just as Corrie Ten Boom did as she hid the Jewish ones from the Nazi's, and as Rahab did when she hid the apostles, and lied about their whereabouts.....no hesitation.

And you would be promptly condemned by many people in this thread for doing so. Ironically, it is a good portion of the Christian community that would accuse you in such a situation.

Sad, ain't it? That people would rather you adhere to a rigid set of rules rather than helping people escape from evil oppression is sad commentary on the state of much of the church.

 

[brinny]

And you would be promptly condemned by many people in this thread for doing so. Ironically, it is a good portion of the Christian community that would accuse you in such a situation.

Sad, ain't it? That people would rather you adhere to a rigid set of rules rather than helping people escape from evil oppression is sad commentary on the state of much of the church.

Aah, my brother, maybe so, but hey, what'cha think takin' up one's cross means?

 

[murjahel]

11. Yet Rahab made that very list, along with;

• Abel
• Enoch
• Noah
• Abraham
• Sarah
• Isaac
• Jacob
• Joseph
• Moses
• Rahab
• Gideon
• Barak
• Samson
• Jephthah
• David
• Samuel

Noah got drunk and lay in his tent naked and exposed...
Abraham lied to pharoah and brought God's judgment...
Sarah laughed at hearing the promise of a child...
Isaac wanted to give the birthright to Esau, though
God has said it should go to Jacob,
Moses killed an Egyptian, and struck the Rock twice against
God's direction...
Samson failed many times with Delilah...
was judged, blinded, and died in his final repentant battle...
David failed in adultery with Bathsheba,
and had her husband killed...

and now..
Rahab... she, at least, did her lying and harlotry before
coming to God...

because we find these names in God's hall of faith fame...
we don't make all their sins to be good...

some here want to make Rahab' lying good...
were the sins of the others all good now, since they are
in the list

NO​

 

[Yitzchak]

To defend one from oppressive forces of evil, i would lie, just as Corrie Ten Boom did as she hid the Jewish ones from the Nazi's, and as Rahab did when she hid the apostles, and lied about their whereabouts.....no hesitation.

I would too. I also would have lied to defend those escaping slavery through the underground railroad....

 

[Svt4Him]

This coming from the guy who just said I think like Joseph Smith.

All throughout this thread, we've been told that Rahab was a "heathen harlot" and people have looked down at her, said that she is an invalid example, etc. If you haven't seen it, then I can only conclude that you need to attend that reading seminar that was advertised earlier in this thread yesterday.

Moving from strawman to shifting the burdon of proof?

8th article of faith: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;

Sounds pretty similar if you ask me. The last part goes like this:

we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

 

[Svt4Him]

That's a pretty clear implication toward me there, which you'll undoubtedly deny.

I just realized I did not quote you before saying that, and I didn't mean to infer that is what you said, I appologize for that. I meant it similar to saying something like "If you choose to believe in Santa it doesn't mean he exists" like I would post on a topic about the power of belief, but I can see how it would be taken wrong. If you choose to believe me that's fine, but it doesn't change my intent. Oh, stop the press! Using the same logic you've applied, I just inferred you choose to believe me. Granted I think it's intuitively obvious to a casual observer that I haven't, I think it's weird that rules of interpretation seem to change depending on the mood someone's in.

But it doesn't take away from the fact that I did think I quoted your post, sorry.

Honest and respectful discourse seems to be a lost art with many people in this forum.

Ah well...

Go back and see when the ad hominem first started Pete, you will find that maybe you are part of the problem as well? No, you'll most likely deny it.

 

[murjahel]

rahab was, when this happened a harlot, the Bible tells us that... she was still just hearing about God,
after Jericho fell, she was blessed to travel with Israel, settle down, become part of the lineage of Jesus...


but... what she was when she lied is what I am discussing...
that is not downgrading Rahab as a person, for what she became...
surely, she deserves to be in the list of those with faith...

but that does not justify her sins of harlotry or of lying... that is what I am showing...


David belongs in that list too, he was a man after God's own heart... but that does not make his sin of adultery and planning the death of a woman's husband to be good and all right for us to imitate...


she is now forgiven and in heaven...
and likely still ashamed she lied to try to help a God Who needed no help..

well, the Bible speaks of Moses' sin, David's,
Peter's, Paul's... and we don't take those sins and glorify them as being all right, because
those men of faith did them...

it is just here with rahab, in order to validate and condone lies some want to justify, they use her sinful, heathen times as their proof it is all right....


it is not all right ...

Jesus is the One we are to be like,
not Rahab in her heathen time...

 

[murjahel]

There have been many mentions of Corrie Ten Boom, and she did 'once' lie that she had no jews in hiding... it saved no one, for they already knew the Jews were in the home, they were all arrested... later the Jews escaped, God worked a miracle to save them, the lie did not help...
she felt horrible about the lie, and determined to never lie again... it did not help...

Read from this from The Hiding Place, by David Wallington...

here is an excerpt about the next time she was questioned... it shows what she had learned from her 'lie', and how she determined to no longer be that way...

"The hearing
However, there was still the hearing to come, when Corrie would be questioned by a Gestapo officer. This could be terrible. Torture was often used to gain information. Every prisoner was afraid that they might give some of their friends away.
Corrie was called for her hearing one chilly morning in May.

"Lord Jesus," she prayed, "you were once questioned too. Please show me what to do."

The German officer began in a very friendly way.
"I would like to help you, Miss ten Boom. But you must tell me everything."

Corrie and her co-workers in the underground had often practised answering questions. For an hour the German officer questioned her, and she managed to avoid giving away anything vital. He specially wanted to know how the ration cards had been stolen. Corrie was glad she really did not know!

"And now tell me about your other activities, Miss ten Boom."

"Other activities? Oh yes, about the girl's clubs and my work for the mentally handicapped."

Of course, the German officer did not mean this, but Corrie eagerly told him all about it, and he listened in amazement.

"But that is a waste of time," he said.

"Oh no," said Corrie, "God loves everyone, even the weak and feeble. You see, the Bible tells us that God looks at things very differently from us."

"That will be enough for today," the officer snapped.

But the next day, when the hearing continued, the officer asked Corrie more and more about God and the Bible. It turned out that he hated the work he had to do. Also he was very worried about his family in Germany, because their town was being bombed every night. Corrie was able to tell him about the peace and forgiveness which Jesus Christ can give if we ask Him.

From then on, the officer actually helped Corrie all he could. He gave her a chance to see her relations when her father's will was read out. But he diappeared from a crack in the floor.


During the four months that Corrie was alone in her cell, she spent much of her time reading and re-reading the four Gospels that the hospital nurse had given her.

The life and suffering of Jesus became more real to her than ever before.
She even began to see that all her suffering might have a purpose"


So, the lie did not help...
the truth she learned to tell... won souls...
God loves illustrated lessons...

 

[probinson]

8th article of faith: We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;

Sounds pretty logical to me, no matter who said it. I suspect you even agree with that statement.

Sounds pretty similar if you ask me. The last part goes like this:

we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Thanks for the information.