Is it OK to be Lutheran and believe in the Rapture?

[DaRev]

How were you using the phrase "the Church Triumphant"? Were you saying that those from your church whom are deceased have gone to be with Jesus in Heaven? If so, how does that square with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 (NASB):

"15For this we say to you (A)by the word of the Lord, that (B)we who are alive and remain until (C)the coming of the Lord, will not precede (D)those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord (E)Himself (F)will descend from heaven with a (G)shout, with the voice of (H)the archangel and with the (I)trumpet of God, and (J)the dead in Christ will rise first."

It sounds to me, and I could be wrong here, wouldn't be the first time, that when we die, we sleep and remain asleep until the second coming of Jesus and it is at that time that we are raised to life in Him and go to be with Him forever in Heaven.

Scripture teaches us that those who pass on in the faith are at rest with their Lord. The passage in Revelation 7 is but one example. (Time prohibits my expounding on this ad nauseum.)

The events of 1 Thess 4 occur on the Last Day. This is the Resurrection of the dead, which we declare in the Creed. Those who are at rest with the Lord spiritually are resurrected with a glorious body and spend eternity with our Lord on the New Earth.

Scripture absolutely does not teach "soul sleep" that the Adventists teach.

 

[LutherNut]

Should we also note that most interpretations of Revelation are actually based on translations of Erasmus' text which comes from a single Alexandrian manuscript and some backtranslating from Latin?

Marv

We should also note that Revelation is one of the disputed books of the early Church, one of the 7 books of the NT "antilegomena." No doctrine of the Church is based solely on the "antilegomena."

 

[Zecryphon]

"Scripture teaches us that those who pass on in the faith are at rest with their Lord."

Okay, we're at rest. What does the word rest mean? Is it a synonym for sleep or does it mean we are at peace with the Lord in His house?

"The passage in Revelation 7 is but one example. (Time prohibits my expounding on this ad nauseum.)"

You can always email me and expound ad nauseum to your hearts content.

"The events of 1 Thess 4 occur on the Last Day. This is the Resurrection of the dead, which we declare in the Creed. Those who are at rest with the Lord spiritually are resurrected with a glorious body and spend eternity with our Lord on the New Earth."

Okay.

"Scripture absolutely does not teach "soul sleep" that the Adventists teach."

So what did Jesus mean by asleep in the following passages?

51When He came to the house, He did not allow anyone to enter with Him, except Peter and John and James, and the girl's father and mother.

52Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep."

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

52Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep."

We don't die. We rise again in a glorious new body. Just a minor transition like "asleep in Jesus".

That one word is the basis of whole belief in "soul sleep"? That's reaching.

 

[Edial]

to Zecryphon ...

Scripture absolutely does not teach "soul sleep" that the Adventists teach.

So what did Jesus mean by asleep in the following passages?

51When He came to the house, He did not allow anyone to enter with Him, except Peter and John and James, and the girl's father and mother.

52Now they were all weeping and lamenting for her; but He said, "Stop weeping, for she has not died, but is asleep."

MK 5:37 He did not let anyone follow him except Peter, James and John the brother of James. 38 When they came to the home of the synagogue ruler, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39 He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep." 40 But they laughed at him.
After he put them all out, he took the child's father and mother and the disciples who were with him, and went in where the child was. 41 He took her by the hand and said to her, "Talitha koum!" (which means, "Little girl, I say to you, get up!"). 42 Immediately the girl stood up and walked around (she was twelve years old). At this they were completely astonished. 43 He gave strict orders not to let anyone know about this, and told them to give her something to eat.

In v.39 Christ presented that she was not dead, but asleep.

Don't you think that be saying that she is not dead, the argument of a soul-sleep is moot, since soul-sleep argument is revolved around being in a state of death?

"Asleep" could mean many things.

But in this case it definitely does not mean being dead.

Am I missing something?
Did you mean something else?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Zecryphon]

We don't die. We rise again in a glorious new body. Just a minor transition like "asleep in Jesus".

That one word is the basis of whole belief in "soul sleep"? That's reaching.

"We don't die."

Everybody dies. It's just that some of us are resurrected to eternal life with Jesus and some are not.

"We rise again in a glorious new body."

When? On the last day or immediately after we die?

"Just a minor transition like "asleep in Jesus"."

Hmm, that sounds alot like the New Age stuff I used to be into.

"That one word is the basis of whole belief in "soul sleep"? That's reaching."

I'm not saying it's the whole basis for soul sleep. I'm saying that I'm taking the word "asleep" literally. How are you taking it and why are you taking it that way? What does asleep mean to you in this passage?

 

[Zecryphon]

"In v.39 Christ presented that she was not dead, but asleep."

I know that. My question is/was after we die, do we go to be with Jesus or are we asleep, possibly in a state of suspended animation if you will, but not dead, until the resurrection on the last day?

"Don't you think that be saying that she is not dead, the argument of a soul-sleep is moot, since soul-sleep argument is revolved around being in a state of death?"

I didn't bring the term soul sleep into this conversation. I used the term asleep, this soul-sleep term is new to me as of today.

"Asleep" could mean many things."

It could mean many things yes, so why can it not mean to be asleep until the resurrection on the last day?

"But in this case it definitely does not mean being dead."

I never said it did equal death. I asked a question about what happens when we die. Do we simply fall asleep until the last day or are we taken to Heaven in spirit form and then given new bodies on the last day?

"Am I missing something?"

I think you believe I am interchanging the terms soul sleep and death and that I believe they mean the same thing. Dead is dead. Those who are dead will remain in the grave and those who are asleep in Christ will be raised to eternal life in new incorruptible bodies. The question still remains what happens at the moment of death and where do we go immediately after death?

 

[Jim47]

Moderator post.

I was just made aware of nother post that was quite rude. May I suggest reading the rules again?

Is it too mch to ask that you use the same manners in church as you would here in this forum? Remember the goldened rule and show a little love to others. We have visitors here who may very well be looking into the Lutheran teachings and become one of our own.

If there are any more rude posts in this thread I will close it.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Jesus use the same venacular when He anounced the death of Lazarus
John 11:11These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.


From Kretmann's Commentary:

After quieting the fears of His disciples as to His own safety, Jesus thought the time fitting to make His important announcement. He told them that Lazarus, their friend, was lying asleep, was even now sound asleep. That is the Lord's manner of speaking of death, as of a sleep. He knew of the death of Lazarus by His omniscience, and He wanted to impart this knowledge to the disciples in a form with which they should have been familiar from the Old Testament manner of speaking. It is a great comfort for the believers that the Lord Himself speaks of the death of His disciples as a falling asleep; it is a quiet and secure rest in the interval between this life and that of the Kingdom of Glory. Jesus also stated His intention of going to Bethany for the purpose of awaking Lazarus from his sleep, of bringing him back to this life for a season. But the disciples, with their usual denseness, did not understand the Lord's speech, but thought only of physical sleep. Their immediate inference is that a quiet sleep in severe sickness usually points to a quick recovery, and that therefore they need not take the dangerous step of returning to Judea. Jesus therefore told them in plain, unmistakable words that Lazarus had died. He had permitted His friend to die. And Jesus was glad on their account that He had not been present in Bethany at the time of His friend's dying. He had the purpose of strengthening their faith by a miracle which He intended to perform shortly, the greatest of all His miracles, in a manner of speaking. He wanted to start out for Bethany at once, in order to realize His object. It was at this point that Thomas, called Didymus (twin), showed His misunderstanding of the entire situation. He thought that Jesus was deliberately walking to His death, and he urged the other disciples to go along. He felt equal to the ordeal of going into death with his Master, for the love which he now felt for Him. The love of Christ puts divine courage into the heart of the most timid Christian.

http://www.kretzmannproject.org/JOH/JOH_11.htm

 

[Melethiel]

There is a verse in one of the Epistles that states that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." To me, that seems to effectively rule out the idea of soul-sleep.

 

[Edial]

to Zecryphon ...

...The question still remains what happens at the moment of death and where do we go immediately after death?

At the moment of death ...

Unbelievers:

They go into Hades (or Sheol of the OT).

That is a World of the Departed Dead where their past Earthly lives are balanced off to reflect the injustices that were inflicted by them while in the body.

It is world where people are much "weaker" "physically", where their past sins are manifesting into real consequences that are plainly felt by them and where they are plainly shamed once they face them for what they are.
The existance "down there" is real.
It is presented that they are roused by new "visitors", they gossip, conversations are often bitter and sad, there is agony for some, and there are flames that were kindled by God's wrath.


Believers:

At the point of death they are immediately brought into the presence of Christ.
They are identified as "souls" that are very much at ease and joy in the presence of the Christ.
They will have real and habitable mansions in heaven, which is the property of the Father.
These mansions are presented as glorious places that will not be much different from the thinking methodology that we have here, but extremely different in their majesty.
The new glorified bodies will not be there yet, since these need to be "made" from the dead Earthly bodies that are in the Earth.
Yet, they will be given certain temporary coverings for their souls that would please them very much.

Both parties will wait for the Great White Throne Judgement.
There, the unbelievers will be judged for their souls and the believers will be judged for their works.

After that, the unbelievers will go into Gehenna, the Burning Lake for eternity.
They will not cease from being, but will encounter a new environment that will reflect their depraved identity.
The discomfort "in there" will be great, but the primary one will be that of bitterness, envy and rage.
And all this time there will be no desire to join God in his holiness.

The believers however, will inherit everything that God has (by that time they will have the glorious and "permanent" bodies).
They will occupy the highest position in the heaven, since they are heirs of God, adopted children of God.
They will oversee entire creation ("promotion" from being given the original authority over the Earth that they passed over to Sata at the Garden).
That creation includes entire Cosmos and Universes (both visible and invisible) and their lifeforms.

I'll provide verses if you need them.
But please ask for verses reflective of specific descriptive points.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[DaRev]

There is a verse in one of the Epistles that states that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." To me, that seems to effectively rule out the idea of soul-sleep.

Sometimes people seem to have a hard time reading the Bible.

 

[DaRev]

Come on DaRev. Are we gonna engage again?

We are if you are going to continue this nonsense.

.
Again you start with "we"?
Gathering the troops?

Actually, YOU started the "we."

How soon you forget...

 

[Edial]

Actually, YOU started the "we."

How soon you forget...

I am talking about "Greek" we.
You are bringing up the "Hebrew" we.

 

[DaSeminarian]

We We We all the way home...

Hey all I have returned as someone else as Spalatin had to go and aid Frederick the Wise. So How are you all?

 

[Edial]

We We We all the way home...

Hey all I have returned as someone else as Spalatin had to go and aid Frederick the Wise. So How are you all?

HA!
"We" are fine.

 

[filosofer]

I'll take a crack at this one...

In Revelation 7:14, the Greek word that is mistakenly translated "have come out" in the NIV is a present activbe participle which indicates a continuous action. The correct interpretation of the Greek text here is "these are the ones who are coming out of the great time of trouble." It is not a past tense, something that has happened prior; nor is it a future tense, a single event yet to come. It is a continuous action, ongoing, which can only mean that the "great time of trouble" is ongoing. It is now.

This is one of the many reasons that we should never base our theology on the NIV.

Just a quick note: I agree completely with the theology of what you write. However participles are used to indicate type of action. And context with other verbs, and especially the main verb, determines how a participle is to be understood. Sometimes, participles in a sequence with an imperative functions as an imperative. So the 'continuous doing" is not supported by the verbal form. Note: doesn't necessarily mean that the conclusion is not correct, but it cannot hang on the verbal form.

In Christ's love,
filo

 

[filosofer]

Should we also note that most interpretations of Revelation are actually based on translations of Erasmus' text which comes from a single Alexandrian manuscript and some backtranslating from Latin?

Marv

This needs a little more qualification, since there is very little back translating (primarily the last few verses of the book), which do not "support a theology". And the "single Alexandrian manuscript" applies only the KJV, since there are more Greek manuscripts of Revelation that have been found.

In Christ's love,
filo

 

[LutherNut]

We We We all the way home...

Hey all I have returned as someone else as Spalatin had to go and aid Frederick the Wise. So How are you all?

Scott? Is that you, my friend??

 

[LilLamb219]

Welcome back, Scott!