Is it Morally Wrong to Hunt and Kill an Elephant for Sport?

[Bradskii]

Slavery is "Taught" in the bible. There are specific "Laws" about how to go about it. Paul calls himself a "Doulos" a Bond-slave of Christ. Slavery is not unbiblical. Most go about it "unbiblically" true. But again, either we make up what is right and wrong for ourselves or we stick to the scriptures on every topic. We either make it up or we go with God.

So...personal preference then. In which case how would one argue against it? How could one convince a slave owner that it is immoral?

 

[EmethAlethia]

So...personal preference then. In which case how would one argue against it? How could one convince a slave owner that it is immoral?

The bible does not say slavery is immoral.

So...personal preference then. In which case how would one argue against it? How could one convince a slave owner that it is immoral?

That's the point. Slavery is not contrary to the bible. You can do it biblically, and for biblical reasons, or do it un-biblically, that i the point. Morality is determined by whether or not we follow the teachings of the word of God on the topic. There are over a hundred verses on slavery and how to do it biblically. Do you know them?

This is the root of the problem. We make up our morality rather than do the work to get God's view of things. We are "morally" offended at God's stance, or don't even give a damn about what He has to say and just make it up as we go. Yes, most are offended by God's view of slavery, if they even bother to check out the topic at all. Like I said. Most make up their morality based on their "feelings". It's not about truth but what we "feel". Therein lies the problem.

Be a workman who need not be ashamed ... habitually keep on cutting straight all that the word of God has to say on a topic, keep on proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and hold fast to what is good/true.

 

[Bradskii]

The bible does not say slavery is immoral.
That's the point. Slavery is not contrary to the bible.

I've not seen many posts actually supporting slavery. And presumably accepting that you can even beat slaves if you have any.

Are you sure you don't want to rethink your position? It's not coming across very well.

 

[EmethAlethia]

I've not seen many posts actually supporting slavery. And presumably accepting that you can even beat slaves if you have any.

Are you sure you don't want to rethink your position? It's not coming across very well.

God rarely comes across well to men.

Exo_21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment.
Exo_21:5 "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,'
Exo_21:7 "If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
Exo_21:20 "If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished.
Exo_21:26 "If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye.
Exo_21:27 "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth.
...

If we don't care about God's opinion of things we are free to make up our own "morality" as we see fit. Most do.

 

[Bradskii]

God rarely comes across well to men.

We're not discussing God's opinion on slavery. We're discussing yours. And I have to say that I'm certain that you're not a person who would condone slavery. But you're painting yourself into a corner with your arguments.

Maybe we should start again so that your views don't come across as being so extreme.

 

[EmethAlethia]

We're not discussing God's opinion on slavery. We're discussing yours. And I have to say that I'm certain that you're not a person who would condone slavery. But you're painting yourself into a corner with your arguments.

Maybe we should start again so that your views don't come across as being so extreme.

Actually, I have no problem at all with anything in the bible. Most people do. And you are right. God, and His views are extreme. That's why most professing Christians teach as doctrines the precepts of men and nullify the commandments of God. Most don't want truth. They want to go to scripture to justify what they want to believe "as" truth. Truth is something they cannot stomach. I get it.

Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to justify their own, they do not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

 

[Bradskii]

And you are right. God, and His views are extreme.

Your views are extreme and cannot be excused by biblical interpretation.

We're done. Thanks for your input.

 

[EmethAlethia]

Your views are extreme and cannot be excused by biblical interpretation.

We're done. Thanks for your input.

God is extreme. He offers no excuses. Nor do His people need one.

 

[ViaCrucis]

God is extreme. He offers no excuses. Nor do His people need one.

You mean His extreme love and grace that He has poured out upon the whole world through Christ? Or do you mean the extreme seriousness with which He calls His people to love others even as He loves them, with He Himself becoming the greatest slave, and inviting us to be co-slaves with Him in His service to the world to sinners?

"The greatest among you is your servant, and whoever would be chief among you must be your slave."

"The first shall be last, and the last shall be first."

"Have this same mind in you that was in Christ Jesus, who though being by nature God did not regard equality with God a thing to be exploited, but emptied Himself taking on the form of a slave born in human likeness."

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom to many."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[EmethAlethia]

You mean His extreme love and grace that He has poured out upon the whole world through Christ? Or do you mean the extreme seriousness with which He calls His people to love others even as He loves them, with He Himself becoming the greatest slave, and inviting us to be co-slaves with Him in His service to the world to sinners?

"The greatest among you is your servant, and whoever would be chief among you must be your slave."

"The first shall be last, and the last shall be first."

"Have this same mind in you that was in Christ Jesus, who though being by nature God did not regard equality with God a thing to be exploited, but emptied Himself taking on the form of a slave born in human likeness."

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom to many."

-CryptoLutheran

God does not pull punches. Every last part of the law, even the parts that have been fulfilled, is holy, righteous, pure ... liking or disliking the truth because it is extreme, be it His laws on marriage, his laws on slavery ... or anything else does not change what God calls good, righteous, holy ... just because it doesn't fit with what we want to believe about Him, and His views. It includes everything above, and everything else.

 

[ViaCrucis]

God does not pull punches. Every last part of the law, even the parts that have been fulfilled, is holy, righteous, pure ... liking or disliking the truth because it is extreme, be it His laws on marriage, his laws on slavery ... or anything else does not change what God calls good, righteous, holy ... just because it doesn't fit with what we want to believe about Him, and His views. It includes everything above, and everything else.

And I would invite you to think more deeply on these things, by looking to Christ and how Christ is the telos, the end point, the goal, of the Law (Romans 10:4), how the Law was the paidagogos, the harsh taskmaster until Christ (Galatians 3:24). And that the sum of the Law is comprehended in the Great Commandment, "And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength ... You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Mark 12:30-31)

St. John Chrysostom, the great homilist of the 4th century, writes that if men took the command seriously and implemented it, there would be neither rich nor poor, no slave, no kings,

"Wherefore, having said, 'The first and great commandment is, You shall love the Lord your God,' he added, 'and the second — (He leaves it not in silence, but sets it down also)— is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' And see how with nearly the same excellency He demands also this. For as concerning God, He says, 'with all your heart:' so concerning your neighbor, 'as yourself,' which is tantamount to, 'with all your heart.'

Yea, and if this were duly observed, there would be neither slave nor free, neither ruler nor ruled, neither rich nor poor, neither small nor great; nor would any devil then ever have been known: I say not, Satan only, but whatever other such spirit there be, nay, rather were there a hundred or ten thousand such, they would have no power, while love existed. For sooner would grass endure the application of fire than the devil the flame of love. She is stronger than any wall, she is firmer than any adamant; or if you can name any material stronger than this the firmness of love transcends them all. Her, neither wealth nor poverty overcomes: nay, rather there would be no poverty, no unbounded wealth, if there were love, but the good parts only from each estate. For from the one we should reap its abundance, and from the other its freedom from care: and should neither have to undergo the anxieties of riches, nor the dread of poverty." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 32 on 1 Corinthians

Obviously men do not take it seriously, as "none are righteous" (Romans 3:10), for there is no righteousness to be gained under the Law. And thus we require a righteousness "apart from the Law"; that righteousness which comes as grace, through faith (Romans 3:21-22).

And in this the Church does not recognize slaves as slaves, nor masters as masters; but each are brothers, as St. Paul instructs, "Submit to one another out of reverence to Christ" (Ephesians 5:21), and thus the context of

"Bondservants, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ, not by the way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, rendering service with a good will as to the Lord and not to man, knowing that whatever good anyone does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether he is a bondservant or is free. Masters, do the same to them, and stop your threatening, knowing that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and that there is no partiality with him." - Ephesians 6:5-9

The command is not for slaves to be slaves and masters to be masters; but that the slave is no longer a slave, but a brother; and the master is no longer a master, but a brother. Indeed,

"I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment. (Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me.) I am sending him back to you, sending my very heart. I would have been glad to keep him with me, in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, no longer as a bondservant but more than a bondservant, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord." - Philemon 1:10-16

And also,

"Were you a bondservant when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.)" - 1 Corinthians 7:21

The Apostle was hardly in any position to affect the social rules of the ancient Graeco-Roman world, but he could work to changing the way Christians, in our own relationships with others, no longer think as the world does. A mode of thinking that should eradicate the whole concept of owning a human person as property, people aren't property, people are our brothers and our neighbors made in God's image and likeness. And in Christ we behold one another not according to the station in which we were born in life, or what life has thrown atop us; but to behold one another in the Lord as free brothers, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." (2 Corinthians 3:17) and "For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord" (1 Corinthians 7:22).

In truth, in the early centuries of the Church we see that the institution of slavery actually began to fade, and slavery all but disappeared in the middle ages. The re-institution of slavery began with the enslaving of Africans and indigenous American peoples. For which there is no justification, biblical or otherwise.

Christ is the end of slavery. He who became the slave of slaves has eradicated slavery in His flesh, destroying the distinction between slave and free; even as He has eradicated the dividing wall between Jew and Gentile; that through and in Him there is the one new humanity,

"For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility." - Ephesians 2:14-16

All of this, not to mention what Christ our Lord Himself teaches us, it is He who said, "You have heard it said ... but I say to you".

The Torah allowed for "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" (Leviticus 24:20), but Christ our God has said,

"But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you" - Matthew 5:39-42

This is the Same who said,

"He said to them, 'Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.'" - Matthew 19:8-9

Moses may have been preached in the synagogue (Acts of the Apostles 15:21), but here in the Church we preach Christ and Him crucified (1 Corinthians 2:2).

There is a proper use of the Law, and there is a wrong use of the Law.

The proper and most important use of the Law is that the Law is a mirror that reflects us back at ourselves. And by "us" I definitely mean and include Christians. The Christian stands just as much condemned under the Law as anyone else, because the Christian is very much still a sinful sinner that sins.

The wrong use of the Law is as a means of false righteousness. That is the Opinio Legis, the Opinion of the Law, that age-old heresy that if we just try to be holy we can be holy, if we just try to be righteous we can be righteous.

The Law doesn't allow us to believe such foolish opinions, but man is a sneaky sort, he tricks himself into pride, such as with those certain hostile Pharisees who could say things like, "God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get." (Luke 18:11-12).

Ultimately I guess I should just leave with this: "Technically not illegal" is not a good basis for morality. That the Torah does not explicitly condemn the institution of slavery is hardly a good reason to accept slavery as a morally acceptable thing. It is clear that things permissible in former times are not ipso facto the way and will of God.

Christ, as you will recall from the beginning of this post, is the "end of the Law". The righteousness of the Law summed up in Him, and the curse of the Law condemned in His flesh; the weakness of the Law (sin) being eradicated by the power of God's mercy through Christ, that we might be reconciled sinners. God having ended our hostility toward Himself by His love, thereby granting us His peace.

And now we have the opportunity to go and be peacemakers, bearing this same peace to the world, in love. That is the way of Christ and the will of God.

Pax Christi.
-CryptoLutheran

 

[EmethAlethia]

God gave laws... those are holy, righteous, good ... that includes laws of slavery. Should we not seek to be free? Of course. But even free, we are God's bond-slaves. Is being a bond-slave of God evil? Of course not. Slavery is Christianity. we voluntarily submit to Him in all issues. Slavery, bond-slavery is decidedly a Christian concept. If you aren't His bond-slave you are not His. "He who is frorgiven much loves much." "If you love Me you will keep My commandments."

 

[ViaCrucis]

God gave laws... those are holy, righteous, good ... that includes laws of slavery. Should we not seek to be free? Of course. But even free, we are God's bond-slaves. Is being a bond-slave of God evil? Of course not. Slavery is Christianity. we voluntarily submit to Him in all issues. Slavery, bond-slavery is decidedly a Christian concept. If you aren't His bond-slave you are not His. "He who is frorgiven much loves much." "If you love Me you will keep My commandments."

That God gave laws isn't under dispute by me. It's your (apparent) interpretation of what God giving those laws means that I was arguing against.

Further, I'd suggest you go back and read the Parable of the Prodigal Son, and what the Apostle says in Galatians ch. 4, pay special close attention to verse 7.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[EmethAlethia]

That God gave laws isn't under dispute by me. It's your (apparent) interpretation of what God giving those laws means that I was arguing against.

Further, I'd suggest you go back and read the Parable of the Prodigal Son, and what the Apostle says in Galatians ch. 4, pay special close attention to verse 7.

-CryptoLutheran

Rom_1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
2Co_4:5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.
Gal_1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
Eph_4:3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Php_1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:
Php_2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Col_1:7 just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf,
Col_3:14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
Col_4:7 As to all my affairs, Tychicus, our beloved brother and faithful servant and fellow bond-servant in the Lord, will bring you information.
2Ti_2:24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
Tit_1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Jas_1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.
2Pe_1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
Jud_1:1 Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:
Rev_1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Rev_2:20 'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
Rev_7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."
Rev_11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
Rev_15:3 And they *sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!
Rev_19:2 BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER."
Rev_19:5 And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."
Rev_22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
Rev_22:6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

Doulos = Voluntary slavery if you aren't one you aren't His. Slavery isn't evil unless Christianity is.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Rom_1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
2Co_4:5 For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus' sake.
Gal_1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
Eph_4:3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Php_1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons:
Php_2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Col_1:7 just as you learned it from Epaphras, our beloved fellow bond-servant, who is a faithful servant of Christ on our behalf,
Col_3:14 Beyond all these things put on love, which is the perfect bond of unity.
Col_4:7 As to all my affairs, Tychicus, our beloved brother and faithful servant and fellow bond-servant in the Lord, will bring you information.
2Ti_2:24 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
Tit_1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,
Jas_1:1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.
2Pe_1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
Jud_1:1 Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ:
Rev_1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John,
Rev_2:20 'But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
Rev_7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."
Rev_11:18 "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."
Rev_15:3 And they *sang the song of Moses, the bond-servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvelous are Your works, O Lord God, the Almighty; Righteous and true are Your ways, King of the nations!
Rev_19:2 BECAUSE HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TRUE AND RIGHTEOUS; for He has judged the great harlot who was corrupting the earth with her immorality, and HE HAS AVENGED THE BLOOD OF HIS BOND-SERVANTS ON HER."
Rev_19:5 And a voice came from the throne, saying, "Give praise to our God, all you His bond-servants, you who fear Him, the small and the great."
Rev_22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;
Rev_22:6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

Doulos = Voluntary slavery if you aren't one you aren't His. Slavery isn't evil unless Christianity is.

Well done, you found a lot of passages that use doulos to describe Christians in their service to their Lord, a point I haven't argued against.

I had hoped that the Parable of the Prodigal Son and Galatians 4:7 would have helped bring further dimension to the slave-language of Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gene Parmesan]

It's really no surprise that someone who can't acknowledge that killing highly intelligent creatures simply for the fun of it is immoral is also cool with slavery.

 

[EmethAlethia]

It's really no surprise that someone who can't acknowledge that killing highly intelligent creatures simply for the fun of it is immoral is also cool with slavery.

well ... since God has nothing bad to say about either one, with the exception of the rules and regulations in scripture, I guess we know whose side each of us is on.

 

[Bradskii]

I'm unsubscribing from this thread. I just can't keep reading this sort of stuff.

 

[FireDragon76]

This question is brought on by this story on NPR (includes graphic video):
Video Leaks Of NRA's Wayne LaPierre Missing His Mark On Elephant Hunt

Given that we know that elephants are incredibly social, intelligent, and emotional animals which even mourn the death of fellow elephants, is it okay to kill them for sport?

EDIT: I did a very confusing job with the naming of the thread and poll question. Sorry. I have great shame.

Elephants are also a dwindling species that people are fighting hard to protect. It seems to me highly unethical and crass to hunt them, regardless of whether or not they are sentient (I believe they are, but then I believe a great many other animals are as well).

 

[LeafByNiggle]

There are many factors that could influence this decision. I see that some people have answered the question for elephants specifically, relying on specific features of elephants - their intelligence, the fact that they are endangered. Other people have analyzed the question more generally, so that the issue for elephants is the same as other animals. On balance, I think it is immoral to kill elephants today. I am not so sure if it would be immoral if they were not endangered. If I imagine a world where elephants were numerous - like squirrels - and especially if they were causing damage to crops, it might be moral to kill them then. I don't think it is immoral to shoot a squirrel, or even a deer, if their numbers justify it. In some cases deer hunting actually improves the overall health of the wild herd. The same cannot be said of elephants. The fact that they are endangered means that to kill them to extinction is to fail to be a good steward of creation - something man is charged by by God to do.

Another issue is their intelligence and social structure. To kill an elephant quickly and with minimum suffering may be OK for that one elephant; but if that elephant was the matriarch of a family unit, the remaining members of that unit may very well die a slow death of starvation. Elder elephants know when to migrate and where to go to find water. If they have not yet trained up the next generation (which takes years) those members of the family may never learn the life skills they need to survive. Also the way they behave around dead members of their family is eerily similar to how humans react to their deceased loved ones. Squirrels and deer do not do that. So I am inclined to say it is immoral for that reason as well.

Finally, the fact that it is illegal, as declared by legitimate authorities, who ultimately are empowered by God, makes it immoral as well. So there are my three reasons.