Is it Morally Wrong to Hunt and Kill an Elephant for Sport?

[grasping the after wind]

Wild elephants are dangerous exciting game. When LaPierre did this it was legal, not endangered species. Now they are poached for ivory which is not right. We have seen a lot of carnage and have taught to fear a lack of natural species presence. I would never shoot an elephant or deer now. I went through that stage of life. It is morally wrongonly because it is against the international law most places.

Disagree. Morality dosen't have to be tied to legislation or international agreements. Morality is an individual's judgement of what is right an or wrong. One's morality can be tied to whatever one decides to tie it to but for most people it is not a matter of waiting for a committee or an international panel to decide for them.

 

[Bradskii]

Emotional animals? All animals are "emotional" animals yet have always been eaten as food. They have a social dynamic, even if you don't understand what that dynamic is.

I raised cows and they're nothing but great big dogs, including giving you "kisses" and running to meet you when they "miss" you or think you may have food or a treat. ..

Yet, we kill them for food regularly. Most animals have a social dynamic and are, as such, emotional animals.

So the ones we do eat are, or at least should be, treated with some respect. Whether they are chickens, cows, dogs or elephants. I can't see anyone who would think that it was morally correct to allow people to 'hunt' cows for sport even if we were going to eat them. Same with elephants.

 

[grasping the after wind]

But there are almost an infinite number of acts that you could do that might be considered right or wrong to some degree. And a very finite number of things that are actually scripturally covered. And for those there are different interpretations held by different people.

I'm assuming that each of those people make a personal decision as to whether their particular interpretation is correct. As they do on the multitude of every day scenarios that they encounter when they have to make a moral decision which isn't covered by scripture.

Do you do the same as they do? Do you feel that your interpretation is correct?

Every action imaginable is covered by scripture. Not by a detailed list of what particular action is or isn't allowable , but with general principles that can be applied to any situation.

 

[Bradskii]

Every action imaginable is covered by scripture. Not by a detailed list of what particular action is or isn't allowable , but with general principles that can be applied to any situation.

What size is morally acceptable for a caged animal?

 

[grasping the after wind]

So the ones we do eat are, or at least should be, treated with some respect. Whether they are chickens, cows, dogs or elephants. I can't see anyone who would think that it was morally correct to allow people to 'hunt' cows for sport even if we were going to eat them. Same with elephants.

I can see how someone could think that. I just don't see how I could.

 

[Hazelelponi]

So the ones we do eat are, or at least should be, treated with some respect. Whether they are chickens, cows, dogs or elephants. I can't see anyone who would think that it was morally correct to allow people to 'hunt' cows for sport even if we were going to eat them. Same with elephants.

I don't guess I know what you mean by "with respect"...

I suppose if it means to dispatch an animal quickly and with as little pain as possible then yes... I agree.

They are living beings so their death should be humane, and when eaten for food we should always give thanks to God for the food He provides us.

 

[Unqualified]

Disagree. Morality dosen't have to be tied to legislation or international agreements. Morality is an individual's judgement of what is right an or wrong. One's morality can be tied to whatever one decides to tie it to but for most people it is not a matter of waiting for a committee or an international panel to decide for them.

The Bible is not telling you hunting for sport is immoral. The laws of the land are not telling you it’s immoral. Your conscience is and that’s ok. To me what shooting that elephant was ok. But I wouldn’t do it either. Don’t judge until you know all the details. I’m not judging it immoral in this case. The extermination of the species is to me though. What control do I have over it?

 

[EmethAlethia]

But there are almost an infinite number of acts that you could do that might be considered right or wrong to some degree. And a very finite number of things that are actually scripturally covered. And for those there are different interpretations held by different people.

I'm assuming that each of those people make a personal decision as to whether their particular interpretation is correct. As they do on the multitude of every day scenarios that they encounter when they have to make a moral decision which isn't covered by scripture.

Do you do the same as they do? Do you feel that your interpretation is correct?

There are 2 Methodologies out there which account for 99% of the beliefs out there. If you are Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Baptist, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic ... any belief group or variation of beliefs within them, you can all know you have the truth and believe the truth if you do the following and get absolute assurance that you and your belief group have and believe the truth. Here's what you do:

1.) Gather everything you can “use” to prove what you “want to believe” to be truth.


2.) Accumulate all evidence you feel might prove all opposing views incorrect.

3.) Since, no matter what belief group you are in, your beliefs are unquestionable truth, you interpret everything so it supports, or at least not negate, your beliefs. No valid interpretation of valid data contradicts the truth, right? All “valid” data, must support … or at least not negate, your infallible beliefs.

4.) You ignore, discredit, invalidate … anything that doesn’t seem to fit with your views. Your beliefs are “Fact”, right? Valid data interpreted correctly can’t contradict the facts.

5.)gYou Gather all the other experiences, feelings, data … to solidify your beliefs such as signs, wonders, spiritual gifts or facts about your belief group. Things like: we have a burning in the bosom, we speak in tongues, we perform signs or wonders, a statue of Mary came to life and told us our belief groups views are correct, we have prayed to God for the truth and received “feelings” or even signs from heaven. Or, on a more concrete level: Our belief group is the oldest, largest, fastest growing, wealthiest, has the most experts with doctorates… Include anything that adds assurance that your views and belief group have the most truth.

Why do belief groups use this Methodology? It works for everyone, and the more you use it the more hardened into whatever belief group you are in you become. Look at those things in Methodology One above. If you gather gather more proof you beliefs are true, how long before you discover they are wrong? Answer: You can never find out. you are not gathering and examining that data. How long before you find out a different belief might be right? Answer you can't. It closes our eyes and ears to ever even considering that we might be wrong and something else right. Here's a passage that describes the process above:

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Methodology One, those 5 things above, allows us to believe everything under the sun to be absolute unquestionable truth, or the exact same things to be unquestionable lies depending on the positions we start with and the data we gather and collect. But those that use it can only hold fast to "what they want to believe" "as" truth. They can never get to the truth using it.

If you want truth you need a different Methodology:

So, what do we do if you want the truth on this issue, or any issue?

1.) We Avoid “Methodology One”(Mentioned prior): Proving your beliefs true and holding fast to them, is not the same as, “Proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life, and holding fast to what is good/true.” Look at that 2Th. 2:10-13 passage. Paul said that the lost in the end times failed, and Paul used the same standard and judged that those he was writing to were held to the same standard but passed the test and received a love of the truth and were true Christians making this a timeless truth.

2.) Open-mindedness: We remain open-minded to altering any, or all of our beliefs in the light of the fullness of the word of God rightly divided. All belief groups believe in being open minded … “until” you accept their beliefs. Then they believe in being as closed as possible. If you love truth, you will continually remain open-minded to altering any or all of your beliefs in the light of the fullness of the truth, when everything that “might” pertain to the topic at hand is rightly divided. How many passages are there about closing your eyes and ears lest you see or hear. Look at Methodology One again. What is it designed to do?

3.) Habitual ongoing Labor/ Getting Every Piece of Data that Might Pertain: If you Love Truth, you, personally, must become a manual laborer and keep on gathering every fact anyone thinks might pertain to every topic at hand. Then gather all the data that “might pertain” no belief group gathers because they can’t use that information to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false. Yes, that’s every piece of data that proves all your current beliefs false that the opponents to your beliefs have gathered, and every fact that might prove beliefs you believe to be wrong to be truth on that topic as well. We are commanded to be habitual, ongoing, never stopping laborers who are approved by God and won’t stand ashamed before Him. How do we determine what that outcome will be? We habitually “Cut-straight” every single piece of the word of God that “might” apply to the topic at hand. This is way different than looking for passages of scripture to prove true what we want to teach on a topic.

CONSISTENCY IN INTERPRETATION: If God, God’s word, and God’s people are not consistent in what they say and do and DON’T SAY AND DON’T DO, then looking for truth in the bible is a waste of time. Holding to consistency includes:

4.) Consistency with Background Context: Pick a meaning that fully aligns with the historical, legal, architectural, agricultural … context.

5.) Consistency of Meaning of words/root words/figures of speech: Hold to a meaning for all words, root words, and figures of speech consistent with their usage throughout the Old and New Testament. We have a Greek Old and New Testament and a Hebrew Old Testament, pick a meaning fully fitting everywhere the same word, root word, and figure of speech is used.

6.) Consistency with the Surrounding Discussion: Hold to a meaning consistent with the entire discussion surrounding the verse or passage being considered, hold to the flow of thought, flow of arguments, meaning of points made …

7.) Consistency with conscience: Example: If your interpretation would be a sin if a man did likewise and your interpretation results in believing God does what would be sin for us, your interpretation is wrong. i.e., there are no illustrations in the Bible where God says He commits adultery. If your chosen meaning for the word adultery would make God an adulterer, and by His own admission, you picked the wrong meaning for the word.

8.) God, God’s People and God’s Word are 100% consistent: Pick an interpretation for all the data that makes God, God’s people and God’s word 100% consistent in “all” they say and do and “all” they don’t say and don’t do. Any inconsistencies, are proof of incorrect beliefs/definitions.

9.) Always apply logic, reason, and rational thinking: Pick an interpretation fully fitting with all logic, reason, and rational thinking. (i.e., if the writer spent a whole chapter saying all gifts are equal and necessary, that none are greater than any others, … do not choose an interpretation for the very next verse that would command us to desire what God spent the previous 30 verses saying doesn’t exist, and that you can’t get, period, regardless of your desire. “Earnestly desire the greater gifts”, contradicts everything prior. Look for the “other” possible meaning. Note: There is one.

10.) Start with the Easiest/Clearest … data on the topic: Interpret the clearest, easiest understood, most straightforward data/passages first—then the more complex or difficult passages. The complex, convoluted, and difficult passages are easy to distort to fit beliefs.

11.) It ALL fits together: Pick a meaning for the parts that fully fit with the whole of the data that might pertain without adding meaning, subtracting meaning, or distorting anything to force it to comply with your beliefs. If everything gathered (#3 above) does not fully fit with everything in #4-10 above, you have the wrong meaning, and you are forcing the scriptures to fit what you want to believe “as” truth.

12.) Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and never stop … and hold fast to what is good/true. Getting to truth is an ongoing process that never ends. One single verse, one fact you missed, one slight change in interpretation … can force a complete reevaluation and even a complete a change of beliefs. That is, if you love truth, and obey what God commands all His people to be continuously doing for and by themselves. If not …

13.) It’s all on You! Trusting others to get to truth “for” you, is like trusting others to have a relationship with your wife / husband / kids “for” you. It cannot be done. Your failure to keep on habitually doing as God commands all His people to keep on habitually doing, proves you have gathered enough using Methodology One to hold fast to what you want to believe and fall short of 2Th. 2:10-12

I always tell everyone: Understand, “Agreement with me might only make us both wrong.” Why? Because it's true. It only takes one verse I missed, in context, cut straight, to change my beliefs.

Getting to truth, establishing the lines of morality where God sets them, is work. For those happy with their beliefs, usually the groups religious leaders and experts have already done all that work for them. But me getting to truth for someone else is like asking me to have a relationship with your spouse "for" you. Everyone tells us what they love, truth or their beliefs, by the Methodology they habitually use, and their responses. Do they trample your pearls under foot? If they are using Methodology One they will. Why? Bring up something contrary to their beliefs and interpretations and they will jump to every passage they have gathered to prove their beliefs true, to prove yours false, all the interpetations of their data that fit their beliefs ...; and who in their right mind would ever consider exchanging the absolute truth of their beliefs for what, by definition is a lie. Closed eyes and ears all over.

If you love truth you gather all the data on all sides .... cut it all out straight. You remain open-minded to altering your beliefs. Why? Because you are just as likely to believe lies are truth and truth to be lies as anyone else on the planet. No one on this planet has absolutely infallible beliefs on any issue. Do I believe my beliefs are truth right now? Of course. That's the definition of belief. AM I open-minded to considering that I am wrong on every belief? Of course.

the problem with Methodology One is that even things like God's definition of adultery get changed over time because the truth is molded to fit the beliefs and not the other way around. David had 7 wives before he committed adultery, and at least 10 more after that, and didn't commit adultery again. Solomon had 1000 wives and concubines. How many times does the bible say he committed adultery? Follow the second set of rules, Methodology Two, and you can get to truth... eventually. Use the first and you will believe you have already arrived with absolutely no doubt at all.

 

[Bradskii]

There are 2 Methodologies out there which account for 99% of the beliefs out there. If you are Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Baptist, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic ... any belief group or variation of beliefs within them, you can all know you have the truth and believe the truth if you do the following and get absolute assurance that you and your belief group have and believe the truth. Here's what you do:

1.) Gather everything you can “use” to prove what you “want to believe” to be truth.


2.) Accumulate all evidence you feel might prove all opposing views incorrect.

3.) Since, no matter what belief group you are in, your beliefs are unquestionable truth, you interpret everything so it supports, or at least not negate, your beliefs. No valid interpretation of valid data contradicts the truth, right? All “valid” data, must support … or at least not negate, your infallible beliefs.

4.) You ignore, discredit, invalidate … anything that doesn’t seem to fit with your views. Your beliefs are “Fact”, right? Valid data interpreted correctly can’t contradict the facts.

5.)gYou Gather all the other experiences, feelings, data … to solidify your beliefs such as signs, wonders, spiritual gifts or facts about your belief group. Things like: we have a burning in the bosom, we speak in tongues, we perform signs or wonders, a statue of Mary came to life and told us our belief groups views are correct, we have prayed to God for the truth and received “feelings” or even signs from heaven. Or, on a more concrete level: Our belief group is the oldest, largest, fastest growing, wealthiest, has the most experts with doctorates… Include anything that adds assurance that your views and belief group have the most truth.

Why do belief groups use this Methodology? It works for everyone, and the more you use it the more hardened into whatever belief group you are in you become. Look at those things in Methodology One above. If you gather gather more proof you beliefs are true, how long before you discover they are wrong? Answer: You can never find out. you are not gathering and examining that data. How long before you find out a different belief might be right? Answer you can't. It closes our eyes and ears to ever even considering that we might be wrong and something else right. Here's a passage that describes the process above:

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Methodology One, those 5 things above, allows us to believe everything under the sun to be absolute unquestionable truth, or the exact same things to be unquestionable lies depending on the positions we start with and the data we gather and collect. But those that use it can only hold fast to "what they want to believe" "as" truth. They can never get to the truth using it.

If you want truth you need a different Methodology:

So, what do we do if you want the truth on this issue, or any issue?

1.) We Avoid “Methodology One”(Mentioned prior): Proving your beliefs true and holding fast to them, is not the same as, “Proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life, and holding fast to what is good/true.” Look at that 2Th. 2:10-13 passage. Paul said that the lost in the end times failed, and Paul used the same standard and judged that those he was writing to were held to the same standard but passed the test and received a love of the truth and were true Christians making this a timeless truth.

2.) Open-mindedness: We remain open-minded to altering any, or all of our beliefs in the light of the fullness of the word of God rightly divided. All belief groups believe in being open minded … “until” you accept their beliefs. Then they believe in being as closed as possible. If you love truth, you will continually remain open-minded to altering any or all of your beliefs in the light of the fullness of the truth, when everything that “might” pertain to the topic at hand is rightly divided. How many passages are there about closing your eyes and ears lest you see or hear. Look at Methodology One again. What is it designed to do?

3.) Habitual ongoing Labor/ Getting Every Piece of Data that Might Pertain: If you Love Truth, you, personally, must become a manual laborer and keep on gathering every fact anyone thinks might pertain to every topic at hand. Then gather all the data that “might pertain” no belief group gathers because they can’t use that information to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false. Yes, that’s every piece of data that proves all your current beliefs false that the opponents to your beliefs have gathered, and every fact that might prove beliefs you believe to be wrong to be truth on that topic as well. We are commanded to be habitual, ongoing, never stopping laborers who are approved by God and won’t stand ashamed before Him. How do we determine what that outcome will be? We habitually “Cut-straight” every single piece of the word of God that “might” apply to the topic at hand. This is way different than looking for passages of scripture to prove true what we want to teach on a topic.

CONSISTENCY IN INTERPRETATION: If God, God’s word, and God’s people are not consistent in what they say and do and DON’T SAY AND DON’T DO, then looking for truth in the bible is a waste of time. Holding to consistency includes:

4.) Consistency with Background Context: Pick a meaning that fully aligns with the historical, legal, architectural, agricultural … context.

5.) Consistency of Meaning of words/root words/figures of speech: Hold to a meaning for all words, root words, and figures of speech consistent with their usage throughout the Old and New Testament. We have a Greek Old and New Testament and a Hebrew Old Testament, pick a meaning fully fitting everywhere the same word, root word, and figure of speech is used.

6.) Consistency with the Surrounding Discussion: Hold to a meaning consistent with the entire discussion surrounding the verse or passage being considered, hold to the flow of thought, flow of arguments, meaning of points made …

7.) Consistency with conscience: Example: If your interpretation would be a sin if a man did likewise and your interpretation results in believing God does what would be sin for us, your interpretation is wrong. i.e., there are no illustrations in the Bible where God says He commits adultery. If your chosen meaning for the word adultery would make God an adulterer, and by His own admission, you picked the wrong meaning for the word.

8.) God, God’s People and God’s Word are 100% consistent: Pick an interpretation for all the data that makes God, God’s people and God’s word 100% consistent in “all” they say and do and “all” they don’t say and don’t do. Any inconsistencies, are proof of incorrect beliefs/definitions.

9.) Always apply logic, reason, and rational thinking: Pick an interpretation fully fitting with all logic, reason, and rational thinking. (i.e., if the writer spent a whole chapter saying all gifts are equal and necessary, that none are greater than any others, … do not choose an interpretation for the very next verse that would command us to desire what God spent the previous 30 verses saying doesn’t exist, and that you can’t get, period, regardless of your desire. “Earnestly desire the greater gifts”, contradicts everything prior. Look for the “other” possible meaning. Note: There is one.

10.) Start with the Easiest/Clearest … data on the topic: Interpret the clearest, easiest understood, most straightforward data/passages first—then the more complex or difficult passages. The complex, convoluted, and difficult passages are easy to distort to fit beliefs.

11.) It ALL fits together: Pick a meaning for the parts that fully fit with the whole of the data that might pertain without adding meaning, subtracting meaning, or distorting anything to force it to comply with your beliefs. If everything gathered (#3 above) does not fully fit with everything in #4-10 above, you have the wrong meaning, and you are forcing the scriptures to fit what you want to believe “as” truth.

12.) Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and never stop … and hold fast to what is good/true. Getting to truth is an ongoing process that never ends. One single verse, one fact you missed, one slight change in interpretation … can force a complete reevaluation and even a complete a change of beliefs. That is, if you love truth, and obey what God commands all His people to be continuously doing for and by themselves. If not …

13.) It’s all on You! Trusting others to get to truth “for” you, is like trusting others to have a relationship with your wife / husband / kids “for” you. It cannot be done. Your failure to keep on habitually doing as God commands all His people to keep on habitually doing, proves you have gathered enough using Methodology One to hold fast to what you want to believe and fall short of 2Th. 2:10-12

I always tell everyone: Understand, “Agreement with me might only make us both wrong.” Why? Because it's true. It only takes one verse I missed, in context, cut straight, to change my beliefs.

Getting to truth, establishing the lines of morality where God sets them, is work. For those happy with their beliefs, usually the groups religious leaders and experts have already done all that work for them. But me getting to truth for someone else is like asking me to have a relationship with your spouse "for" you. Everyone tells us what they love, truth or their beliefs, by the Methodology they habitually use, and their responses. Do they trample your pearls under foot? If they are using Methodology One they will. Why? Bring up something contrary to their beliefs and interpretations and they will jump to every passage they have gathered to prove their beliefs true, to prove yours false, all the interpetations of their data that fit their beliefs ...; and who in their right mind would ever consider exchanging the absolute truth of their beliefs for what, by definition is a lie. Closed eyes and ears all over.

If you love truth you gather all the data on all sides .... cut it all out straight. You remain open-minded to altering your beliefs. Why? Because you are just as likely to believe lies are truth and truth to be lies as anyone else on the planet. No one on this planet has absolutely infallible beliefs on any issue. Do I believe my beliefs are truth right now? Of course. That's the definition of belief. AM I open-minded to considering that I am wrong on every belief? Of course.

the problem with Methodology One is that even things like God's definition of adultery get changed over time because the truth is molded to fit the beliefs and not the other way around. David had 7 wives before he committed adultery, and at least 10 more after that, and didn't commit adultery again. Solomon had 1000 wives and concubines. How many times does the bible say he committed adultery? Follow the second set of rules, Methodology Two, and you can get to truth... eventually. Use the first and you will believe you have already arrived with absolutely no doubt at all.

You lost me after 'There are 2 Methodologies...'

 

[EmethAlethia]

You lost me after 'There are 2 Methodologies...'

There are only 2 Methodologies people use to get to what they believe to be truth. Do the first and you can die knowing you have the truth and love the truth and be from any belief group on the planet. Even works for staunch Atheists. Start a discussion with a person with any beliefs from any belief group if they love truth and have truth. The answer is always "Yes". Why? Do you know of an exception?

Ask if they have evidence to prove their core beliefs are fact. Of course they do. Do they have proof all opposing beliefs are false? Yes. Or their experts who agree with them can provide it. Of course all their interpretations line up with the truth. Their beliefs are truth. Of course no valid data contradicts their beliefs. Those things are misinterpreted, were altered by evil monks ... And, of course, speaking in tongues, healings, all prove the Mormons right, the Roman Catholic doctrines right, the Pentecostal bible church's doctrines right ... and the number of experts with their doctorates who are also professors proves that anyone with half a brain knows Atheism is true.

That's the point. God makes sure everyone gets what they need to believe whatever they "want to believe." Do you get this passage?

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

It starts out talking about the lost and deceived in the end times, "But" a contrasting word explaining a comparison with what came before starting in verse 13 says that Paul used the same standard to test those he was writing to in the first century and they passed the test and got belief in the truth.

Some of the groups discussed in more detail are:

1. The non-religious Atheist lost in Rom. 1:18-32 who exchange truth for what they "want to believe".
2. The religious non-Christian lost like the Jews in Rom 10:1-3 who go to scripture to justify their beliefs. And ...
3. Those that believe Jesus is their Lord and Savior and are doing all the same miracles as the real Christians of the day, the "Many on the broad path that leads to destruction" the false prophets/"forth-tellers" (includes teachers and preachers), the "Many", same word, who will say, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy, cast out demons, do many works of marvelous power in Your name..." Who Christ never knew. Those who respond like dogs and pigs in Mat. 7:6.

Look at the symptoms. Closed eyes and ears to other perspectives, absolute assurance that their belief group has the truth and the facts to back it up. Look at all the different beliefs among those that believe they are Christians. Every belief group gathers these things and does these things to hold fast to their beliefs "as" truth. Every belief under the sun does the exact same thing, uses the exact same methods to hold to their beliefs. But that is what we do if we love our beliefs. We use the other Method if we really want truth.

 

[Bradskii]

There are only 2 Methodologies people use to get to what they believe to be truth. Do the first and you can die knowing you have the truth and love the truth and be from any belief group on the planet. Even works for staunch Atheists.

My method is to keep questioning everything I know and test it against people who hold different views. What's yours? You kinda lost me again.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The ideal is to not remove the animal from it's natural environment. Make use of it's produce but allow it to live a life naturally perfecting it's sensitive powers.
There is a model in the bible. Abel's life as a Shepard. He is called a wanderer. He went where the animals he used to live went without disturbing their experience of being.

We have powerful experiences of satisfaction and fulfillment remembered deep in our bones of the hunt. The kill. That's when archetypes of masculinity and feminity that prevail today were formed.

No unnecessary suffering is the guiding moral concept. If we eat more chicken than we need that is causing unnecessary suffering. In as much as the chicken can't fulfill the life of a chicken is unnecessary suffering that we are culpable for in as much as we could prevent unnecessary suffering but don't.
Abel demonstrated the model we need to strive to imitate.

The need to hunt is like an inner demon that protected us as kids but now distort our ability to perceive unambiguous reality.

Satisfaction and fulfillment from the hunt isn't necessary for us anymore.

 

[EmethAlethia]

So...unless 'it is written', how do you personally determine if something is morally objectionable?

How do I determine if smoking is morally objectionable? Drinking coffee? Caffeine in general? Playing cards? Walking more than 500 paces without the proper rest on a High Sabbath? Being able to do as you please to white people who are all born racist because they all deserve it? Whether or not it is wrong not to kill a member of an opposing tribe and bring the body back to the tribe so you can eat him as a cannibal tribe is supposed to do? Whether or not we should drill for oil in the U.S. where the ecological laws are the strictest and the most carefully enforced or close them down as evil here and have third world countries without any rules or regulations do the drilling? Why? So we can save the world wide environment, when more crude oil than the Exon Valdez released naturally seeps into the worlds oceans from natural sources every day?

We make it all up and find:

1.) Reasons why our beliefs are true.
2.) reasons why all other beliefs are false
3.) We interpret our data from the previous 2 steps in such a way that our beliefs are shown to be fact.
4.) We discredit, invalidate, ignore ... anything that doesn't seem to fit and
5.) Come up with whatever other stuff we can to shore up our views and discredit the opposition everywhere we can.

If we do not want to stick to exactly what the scriptures say and mean, make up whatever you want, and use that methodology to put the Jews in concentration camps and exterminate them ... or the white gun owners who vote for Trump in concentration camps.

If you do not want to hold to the truth, and only the truth, and rightly divide all of what is available on all sides of the issues, it really doesn't matter what you believe. But all "Morality" is either exactly what God said and meant with no meaning added, subtracted or distorted, and all of the related facts included and "cut-straight", or it's what men want to believe to believe they are more righteous, holy, correct, ecologically sound ... fill in your other reasons for believing whatever you want to believe "as" truth.
Pick one. All of us do. Can you justify every possible belief, and possibly use some scripture in the process? Of course, every possible belief group can and does using the methodology above, but that just guarantees that you will believe you beliefs to be truth and all opposing views to be false. It can't get anyone to truth. Or all beliefs would converge and we would all end up believing the same things.

 

[Bradskii]

How do I determine if smoking is morally objectionable? Drinking coffee? Caffeine in general? Playing cards? Walking more than 500 paces without the proper rest on a High Sabbath? Being able to do as you please to white people who are all born racist because they all deserve it? Whether or not it is wrong not to kill a member of an opposing tribe and bring the body back to the tribe so you can eat him as a cannibal tribe is supposed to do? Whether or not we should drill for oil in the U.S. where the ecological laws are the strictest and the most carefully enforced or close them down as evil here and have third world countries without any rules or regulations do the drilling? Why? So we can save the world wide environment, when more crude oil than the Exon Valdez released naturally seeps into the worlds oceans from natural sources every day?

We make it all up and find:

1.) Reasons why our beliefs are true.
2.) reasons why all other beliefs are false
3.) We interpret our data from the previous 2 steps in such a way that our beliefs are shown to be fact.
4.) We discredit, invalidate, ignore ... anything that doesn't seem to fit and
5.) Come up with whatever other stuff we can to shore up our views and discredit the opposition everywhere we can.

If we do not want to stick to exactly what the scriptures say and mean, make up whatever you want, and use that methodology to put the Jews in concentration camps and exterminate them ... or the white gun owners who vote for Trump in concentration camps.

If you do not want to hold to the truth, and only the truth, and rightly divide all of what is available on all sides of the issues, it really doesn't matter what you believe. But all "Morality" is either exactly what God said and meant with no meaning added, subtracted or distorted, and all of the related facts included and "cut-straight", or it's what men want to believe to believe they are more righteous, holy, correct, ecologically sound ... fill in your other reasons for believing whatever you want to believe "as" truth.
Pick one. All of us do. Can you justify every possible belief, and possibly use some scripture in the process? Of course, every possible belief group can and does using the methodology above, but that just guarantees that you will believe you beliefs to be truth and all opposing views to be false. It can't get anyone to truth. Or all beliefs would converge and we would all end up believing the same things.

Thanks for your input. You have a nice day.

 

[EmethAlethia]

My method is to keep questioning everything I know and test it against people who hold different views. What's yours? You kinda lost me again.

Look at the second Methodology again. In #3 we have "keep on gathering every fact anyone thinks might pertain to every topic at hand. Then gather all the data that “might pertain” no belief group gathers because they can’t use that information to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false. Yes, that’s every piece of data that proves all your current beliefs false that the opponents to your beliefs have gathered, and every fact that might prove beliefs you believe to be wrong to be truth on that topic as well."

But it's just the facts we want, not the opinions. , in the case of truth/morality that would be all the scriptures that might pertain that anyone from any belief group might use on any side of the issue combined with everything that might pertain that no belief group wants to include because they can't use it to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false.

And number 12

12.) Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and never stop … and hold fast to what is good/true. Getting to truth is an ongoing process that never ends. One single verse, one fact you missed, one slight change in interpretation … can force a complete reevaluation and even a complete a change of beliefs. That is, if you love truth, and obey what God commands all His people to be continuously doing for and by themselves. If not …

So yes, you and I agree, for the most part on those 2. How about the rest?

 

[Eloy Craft]

Truth needs no defense.
Truth exposes error by contrast.

 

[EmethAlethia]

So...unless 'it is written', how do you personally determine if something is morally objectionable?

Apart from the word of God there are no "Moral" imperatives just personal preferences. Is it morally wrong to wear red at a for example? Is it morally wrong to have a black car in Arizona? "Morals" are determined by God. What God says nothing about is left to us to decide... as preferences. To make them doctrines is a problem. Many teach as doctrines the precepts of men ... but then their righteousness is exactly that of the Pharisees.

 

[EmethAlethia]

But there are almost an infinite number of acts that you could do that might be considered right or wrong to some degree. And a very finite number of things that are actually scripturally covered. And for those there are different interpretations held by different people.

I'm assuming that each of those people make a personal decision as to whether their particular interpretation is correct. As they do on the multitude of every day scenarios that they encounter when they have to make a moral decision which isn't covered by scripture.

Do you do the same as they do? Do you feel that your interpretation is correct?

Of course they do. Everyone knows their beliefs are correct, and every person on the planet has exactly what they need to hold fast to their beliefs.

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

"But", just like the contrast set up at the start of verse 13, we do have a choice. If you study how every belief group from the Atheists and Agnostics, to the Jews, Moslems, Roman Catholics, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses ... pick your group ... "Justify" what they believe and reject, you will see a pattern.

They …

1.) Gather whatever they can “use” to prove what they “want to believe” to be truth.

2.) Accumulate all evidence they believe proves all opposing views incorrect.

3.) Assume their beliefs are unquestionable truth, and interpret everything in such a way as to make it all support, or at least not negate, their beliefs. Think about it. If your beliefs are unquestionable truths, all “valid” data, must support … or at least not negate, your infallible beliefs, right?

4.) Reinterpret, ignore, discredit, invalidate … anything that doesn’t seem to fit with their views, Why? Our beliefs are “Fact” Valid data interpreted correctly can’t contradict the facts.

5.) Gather all the other experiences, feelings, data … to solidify their beliefs such as signs, wonders, spiritual gifts or facts about your belief group. Things like: we have a burning in the bosom, we speak in tongues, we perform signs or wonders, a statue of Mary came to life and told us our belief groups views are correct, we have prayed to God for the truth and received “feelings” or even signs from heaven. Or, on a more concrete level: Our belief group is the oldest, largest, fastest growing, wealthiest, has the most experts with doctorates… Include anything that adds assurance that your views and belief group have the most truth.

But these are the things we do "if" we just want to believe what we want to believe, and have reasons for discarding the rest. This process closes our eyes, ears and hearts to even considering anything else. And this process allows all the people from every belief group that believes themselves Christian to believe the gospel is simple, while each of them believes completely different “simple” gospels. Everyone gets what they want. And every belief group knows they love the truth and have the truth using this Methodology.

But these are the things we do "if" we just want to believe what we want to believe, and have reasons for discarding the rest. This process closes our eyes, ears and hearts to even considering anything else. And this process allows all the people from every belief group that believes themselves Christian to believe the gospel is simple, while each of them believes completely different “simple” gospels.

Everyone gets what they want.

 

[Bradskii]

What God says nothing about is left to us to decide... as preferences.

So slavery depends on personal preference?

 

[EmethAlethia]

You typed a lot of things and somehow managed to avoid an answer to the actual question.

I want to ask you, is there something wrong with getting your jollies from killing intelligent creatures for the sake of killing? That's it. Rather than food, or materials, if someone's reason for killing an elephant is that they find joy in taking its life, is there not something morally amiss with this person?

Watch the video. These are wealthy folks. They aren't there because they require nourishment. The glee they seem to experience from the act of killing an elephant is unsettling at the very least.

Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men makes us just as righteous as the Pharisees of Jesus day. They believed it was morally wrong to walk more than 50 paces on a high Sabbath without sitting and resting and taught as such. Teach as "morally wrong" anything not stated in scripture and you elevate yourself to the same position they did. You elevate yourself to the position of deciding good and evil. For me, there is enough in the bible itself without adding in my own doctrines. Is it morally wrong to play cards? Some teach that it is. Is it morally wrong to have a cup of coffee. Some create that doctrine. Is it morally wrong not to get vaccinated? Many believe and teach so.

To teach ANYTHING not taught in the bible is to teach as doctrines the precepts of men, which makes those that do so exactly as righteous as the Pharisees in the bible.

So slavery depends on personal preference?

Slavery is "Taught" in the bible. There are specific "Laws" about how to go about it. Paul calls himself a "Doulos" a Bond-slave of Christ. Slavery is not unbiblical. Most go about it "unbiblically" true. But again, either we make up what is right and wrong for ourselves or we stick to the scriptures on every topic. We either make it up or we go with God.