Is it ever ethical for a youth leader to hang out outside of church with a student?

[RDKirk]

There's nothing to forgive you for, but I just could not disagree more with your posts here & I certainly hope the OP doesn't follow your advice. Now, for one thing, let's just stop and think about how the 16 year old girl who reached out for friendship with the 18 year old girl would feel if that was denied on account of the tiny age difference & "authority" between them. Sounds like they're both in roles at their church. All she's wanted was friendship, doing the most innocent of things like fishing. It's just not right to discourage that. That's not being kind. It's being absurdly legalistic. Honestly it has the risk of making that 18 year old girl come off as haughty or full of herself, which would be really sad & unfortunate. That's just how others in the youth ministry could very well see it. We're talking about 2 teens of the same gender hanging out socially together. Now if the OP was 48 then sure, that would be inappropriate, but 18 and 16 makes them peers. The only sense in bringing the difference in 1 being legal & the other not is if they were doing anything at all where that was relevant, and they're not. We're not talking about this girl having sex with the other girl, we're talking about them going fishing, building up a good friendship. Hopefully the 2 would strengthen 1 another in their spiritual walk. It ought to be encouraged.



Really? Between 18 & 16 year olds of the same gender doing things like going fishing together?? If what you're saying is the truth, that's extremely bizarre & should not be considered normative or a reason to base advice off in normal circumstances.

If we were talking about two people we knew had renewed minds conformed to the will of God (Romans 12), you'd certainly be correct.

Moreover, if that were the case, their ages would be irrelevant, whether 16 and 18 or 16 and 30 or 16 and 60.

But the fact that even you are forced to recognize the age factor suggests that you, too, know it's all too likely that we can't depend on everyone with the title "leader" in the congregation has a renewed mind.

Moreover, if the congregation really operated scripturally, all leaders would be "deacons" and selected as such according to 1 Timoth 3 and Titus 1. If you're going to claim scripture, you have to do it right--half-stepping doesn't work with the Holy Spirit.

If selections are not made according to scripture, then you're relying on nothing but the worldly instincts of both parties.

 

[“Paisios”]

Really? Between 18 & 16 year olds of the same gender doing things like going fishing together?? If what you're saying is the truth, that's extremely bizarre & should not be considered normative or a reason to base advice off in normal circumstances.

Yes, I've heard of 18 year old assistant youth leaders have romantic relationships with 15 year old youth members, including alleged sexual intercourse, destroying the 15 year old's trust and belief in realationships, initiated by friendship activities, in the case where the 18 year old was an unindentified wolf (proven by several other inapproprate relationships unrelated to youth group). I never want to see even allegations of similar things happen again. Not normative, but I feel extremely protective of my "kids", and try toto protect them, at least from those within the church.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I recognize my bias based on previous experience, but feel it is prudent to build a protective fence.

I don't object to friendly activities...just want clear transparency and accountability to avoid all kinds of damage.

 

[Go Braves]

Yes, I've seen 18 year old assistant youth leaders have romantic relationships with 15 year old youth members, including alleged sexual intercourse, destroying the 15 year old's trust and belief in realationships, initiated by friendship activities, in the case where the 18 year old was an unindentified wolf (proven by several other inapproprate relationships unrelated to youth group). I never want to see even allegations of similar things happen again. Not normative, but I feel extremely protective of my "kids", and try toto protect them, at least from those within the church.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I recognize my bias based on previous experience, but feel it is prudent to build a protective fence.

I don't object to friendly activities...just want clear transparency and accountability to avoid all kinds of damage.

Have you seen an 18-year-old youth leader who isn't gay have a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender who is 15 and also not gay? The OP is a girl talking about having a friendship with another girl who is a tiny bit younger. I see no reason to use your example to pollute that.

 

[Go Braves]

If we were talking about two people we knew had renewed minds conformed to the will of God (Romans 12), you'd certainly be correct.

Moreover, if that were the case, their ages would be irrelevant, whether 16 and 18 or 16 and 30 or 16 and 60.

But the fact that even you are forced to recognize the age factor suggests that you, too, know it's all too likely that we can't depend on everyone with the title "leader" in the congregation has a renewed mind.

Moreover, if the congregation really operated scripturally, all leaders would be "deacons" and selected as such according to 1 Timoth 3 and Titus 1. If you're going to claim scripture, you have to do it right--half-stepping doesn't work with the Holy Spirit.

If selections are not made according to scripture, then you're relying on nothing but the worldly instincts of both parties.

The Bible has got a lot of good to say about friendships. That's what we're talking about here. 2 teenage girls being friends with 1 another.

 

[“Paisios”]

Have you seen an 18-year-old youth leader who isn't gay have a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender who is 15 and also not gay? The OP is a girl talking about having a friendship with another girl who is a tiny bit younger. I see no reason to use your example to pollute that.

The example I used was a straight male with a gender confused female, who now trusts no one. I am not trying to pollute anything, and agree that there is bias in my response. However, I don't see that the situation would be different if either party had a same sex attraction, or that misinterpretations and hurt feelings, with all sorts of damaging results. But I am willing to see my experiences as an extreme example, and back off with warnings of what could happen as a cautionary tale. I don't pretend to have all the answers or have any authority over the OP.

I'm all for friendship, just keeping it all in the open and transparent.

 

[Go Braves]

The example I used was a straight male with a gender confused female, who now trusts no one. I am not trying to pollute anything, and agree that there is bias in my response. However, I don't see that the situation would be different if either party had a same sex attraction, or that misinterpretations and hurt feelings, with all sorts of damaging results. But I am willing to see my experiences as an extreme example, and back off with warnings of what could happen as a cautionary tale. I don't pretend to have all the answers or have any authority over the OP.

I'm all for friendship, just keeping it all in the open and transparent.

Well thank goodness what you're writing about is pretty dang uncommon instead of what's normal.

 

[“Paisios”]

Well thank goodness what you're writing about is pretty dang uncommon instead of what's normal.

Amen!

ETA: I'm not a particularly legalistic fellow...but very protective of my youth. Just want the best and to protect all of them, in leadership or student roles...can't stand to see them hurt. In fact, I don't think my "kids" would say I am particularly strict - perhaps to their detriment - but I do my best to provide as many defenses as I can for them.

 

[Go Braves]

Amen!

ETA: I'm not a particularly legalistic fellow...but very protective of my youth. Just want the best and to protect all of them, in leadership or student roles...can't stand to see them hurt. In fact, I don't think my "kids" would say I am particularly strict - perhaps to their detriment - but I do my best to provide as many defenses as I can for them.

Well I think being THAT protective is more likely to cause hurt than prevent it. I sure do hope the OP just builds up the friendship with the girl and they're both enriched by it.

 

[Mare Liberum]

I'm 18 years old, female, I've been a youth leader for a couple of months. I'm sorry if this is something I should already know by now, I just wanted to be clear on this issue so I don't make a mistake. One of the students in my youth group-almost 16 years old-keeps talking about how her love language is quality time and how she wants me and her to go fishing, etc. She doesn't drive yet so I'd have to be in a car with her alone, which is another thing that might not be appropriate either. She hangs out with the new youth pastor-22 years old-a lot, they're practically best friends. The student is a junior worship leader and an honorary member of the church staff, so I guess she doesn't consider herself a student? I've spent time with youth leaders outside of church when I was in youth, but I was a senior at the time, and plus there was more of an objective most of the time opposed to just leisure. I don't want to hurt her feelings but I also don't want to cross any boundaries, as well as make exceptions for certain kids. Is hanging out outside of church and driving in the same car ever okay, and if so under which circumstances?

You should make friends with her, while you've got time to make friends. Instead of looking at her like you're her surrogate or babysitter - you're basically the same age - go be girls together or something. Give her somebody to be with, besides 22 y/o pastor. (22 and he's preaching? Who is he, Athanasius?)

 

[RDKirk]

Have you seen an 18-year-old youth leader who isn't gay have a romantic relationship with someone of the same gender who is 15 and also not gay? The OP is a girl talking about having a friendship with another girl who is a tiny bit younger. I see no reason to use your example to pollute that.

How much do you truly know about the sexual activities of the individuals you're talking about?

 

[RDKirk]

You should make friends with her, while you've got time to make friends. Instead of looking at her like you're her surrogate or babysitter - you're basically the same age - go be girls together or something. Give her somebody to be with, besides 22 y/o pastor. (22 and he's preaching? Who is he, Athanasius?)

That actually sounds like a congregation that isn't paying attention to what's going on.

All of the youth leaders and youth pastors ought to be in worship group specifically for them, supporting one another in prayer and getting prayer and guidance from older leaders.

The fact that the OP came here instead of going to them indicates they're not paying attention.

 

[Go Braves]

How much do you truly know about the sexual activities of the individuals you're talking about?

I know enough to think it's just about as silly & melodramatic as you can get to want to discourage a friendship of two Christian girls who a breath apart in age.

 

[RDKirk]

I know enough to think it's just about as silly & melodramatic as you can get to want to discourage a friendship of two Christian girls who a breath apart in age.

Except it's not just a simple friendship. A congregation leader is a person who Christ holds specially accountable.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account -- Hebrews 13

 

[Go Braves]

Except it's not just a simple friendship. A congregation leader is a person who Christ holds specially accountable.

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account -- Hebrews 13

Gracious. We're talking about two teen girls, both are leaders in the youth ministry at their church, being friends.

 

[Mare Liberum]

That actually sounds like a congregation that isn't paying attention to what's going on.

And how can you expect a congregation, split up into microcosmic life stage, or "worship groups" as you define them, to pay attention to every imaginable detail of church social life? The op isn't even certain there's a problem outside her own head.

All of the youth leaders and youth pastors ought to be in worship group specifically for them, supporting one another in prayer and getting prayer and guidance from older leaders.

A 22 year old pastor isn't going to share guidance worth a laugh, with a 16 year old girl. His brain's barely developed, and he's spent 18 years of life in class rooms. Give me a break.

The fact that the OP came here instead of going to them indicates they're not paying attention.

Or the op isn't taking initiative to solve her own problems, nor to ask an older pastor for guidance.

 

[“Paisios”]

@NeedtoSurrender98 - I'm sorry there seems to be little agreement or clarity here in response to your question. I hope at least that some of the concerns and possible issues have been brought to light, and that through prayer, thought, and common sense that you can find an answer which will work for you. My apologies if I have made your confusion worse - forgive me.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You're talking about folks who are in the same age range. I don't see a problem with an 18 year old and 16 year old hanging out, or them hanging out with a 22 year old. Just use common sense about it.

The age issue wouldn't (or shouldn't) be concern; I think the issue isn't about age, it's about the leadership dynamic. Outside of that, I agree with you, an 18 year old and a 16 year old hanging out as friends is definitely not a problem.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Go Braves]

The age issue wouldn't (or shouldn't) be concern; I think the issue isn't about age, it's about the leadership dynamic. Outside of that, I agree with you, an 18 year old and a 16 year old hanging out as friends is definitely not a problem.

-CryptoLutheran

Well from how I'm reading it, both of the girls are in leadership positions in their youth ministry. Sounds more like a Sr class president & Jr president being buddies than boss to employee.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well from how I'm reading it, both of the girls are in leadership positions in their youth ministry. Sounds more like a Sr class president & Jr president being buddies than boss to employee.

It's possible I was misunderstanding the OP, if that's the case then I agree.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[JCFantasy23]

It depends. They are probably just a person who really wants to get involved in a persons life and make the best impression they can, some are like that.