Is it Ethical to be fired for stating Christian beliefs

Halbhh

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Paul is the one who speaks of the bible verse that Folau mentions. In fact Folau used it in a similar way to Paul. he was asked by another Christian a question on the subject and Folau responded with the bible verse. Just as Paul was speaking to Christians in Galatia.
Basically we don't search for nor ever trumpet whatever specific sins other individuals are supposed to be doing, did, might do, etc, as the way we show Christ in the world.

Instead, we testify about Christ saving anyone and everyone, including us, from sins.

All sins, no matter what unknown ones, that everyone has -- human sinfulness that is universal.

Not 'we're good, you're not', but
"Look!, Christ saved me, from my sins! Imagine what He could do to save you...anyone!"

...
Just realized, this is exactly what Paul did, writing he was "foremost among sinners", or the worst.

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a trustworthy saying, worthy of full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the worst.

!

Hallelujah!
 
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Halbhh

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I was really hoping - Just for once, that you and other Christians would see the wrong in this. To see the silence in response to his ridiculous claims, and outright reject it. To state that even though he has said it in a church and posted it on youtube, that it is utterly wrong and obnoxiously errant to cite the poor women who had to opt for abortion and the gay community are all to blame for so much death and destruction.

I'm really shocked that your answer and other Christians isn't simply - yes - that was rubbish and he shouldn't be spreading such lies in the name of Christianity.

This has been my experience with Christianity and why I ultimately opted to not call myself a Christian anymore - I just can't stomach this hate and vitriol that's wrapped in the cloak of piousness.
Look just above (post 841) for a mainstream Christian view you could get from hundreds of millions, perhaps billions.

Seriously though, not only does everyone need Christ in the end, in reality, but the world is full of Christians of the kind you'd like to see.
 
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Zoii

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Don't we use the label "Christian" too widely?
Hi
I used the term - Christian backers
When this all started with him peddling hate speech whilst representing Australian as an international rugby union player, he was warned by his employer to stop it - But he insisted in telling the public, fellow players, kids, that they were all so evil (because they drank alcohol, or were gay, or were of another religion - the list goes on) that they would burn in hell forever. Folau continued to do it so he had his 15 million dollar cancelled. The Christian community rallied behind him giving him 18 million to mount legal challenge.

The matter was eventually settled out of court and no-one knows the details of it - except that Rugby Union and Rugby League and AFL will not allow him to play in Australia ever again - He is viewed as the spreader of hate.

AND now he still continues - he's wealthy - You know he's actually a nice guy - But this is how he chooses to practice Christianity and he is heavily backed. He doesn't spread the word inviting people in - his style is more how we are all so terrible and we will burn in hell and everything bad that occurs is the result of some scapegoat group.
 
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Zoii

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Seriously though, not only does everyone need Christ in the end, in reality, but the world is full of Christians of the kind you'd like to see.

Thanks for your answer. Ive gone down the path of looking at the religion. My experiences have been terrible - just terrible.

Still I choose to come here and engage in discussion - But even here I see so much hate and bigotry and abandonment of science and..... I rarely see love here. So I choose to go with my parents to our Buddhist monastery and keep my distance from the church.
 
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Halbhh

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But even here I see so much hate and bigotry and abandonment of science and..... I rarely see love here.
Wow, you should have (or could!) read more of my posts :), and I'm not the only one among of having both strong faith and also valuing science (enough to have spent thousands of hours since college just keeping up with exciting discoveries in some fields, especially astrophysics). Really, there are more than just a few of us that enjoy the sciences a lot! Funny you mentioned that, since I'm one of the people to talk to about that kind of thing.
 
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Zoii

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Wow, you should have (or could!) read more of my posts :), and I'm not the only one among of having both strong faith and also valuing science (enough to have spent thousands of hours since college just keeping up with exciting discoveries in some fields, especially astrophysics). Really, there are more than just a few of us that enjoy the sciences a lot! Funny you mentioned that, since I'm one of the people to talk to about that kind of thing.
Please dont take offence - My comment is not directed at any individual - its was my general observation and personal experiences when I walked the road of a Christian journey
 
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Halbhh

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Thanks for your answer. Ive gone down the path of looking at the religion. My experiences have been terrible - just terrible.

Still I choose to come here and engage in discussion - But even here I see so much hate and bigotry and abandonment of science and..... I rarely see love here. So I choose to go with my parents to our Buddhist monastery and keep my distance from the church.
CF doesn't represent all Christians, but....in terms of having plenty of people to articulate a point of view, I think CF only well represents about 1/4th-1/2 of commonplace Christian viewpoints. That leaves at least a good half or more you couldn't get very often, in mass, here. I'm not sure if my viewpoint is that well represented, but I have found a couple of dozen often saying things that I can totally agree with, day after day. (yes, we aren't the dominate view, but we definitely are representative of hundreds of millions of believers out there).
 
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Tinker Grey

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Steve seriously. Sounds like you concur with Folaus view that the deaths and carnage of the fires were due to gays n abortion. Very disappointing if not ill informed
It's astonishing that some don't understand just how dangerous Folaus' opinions are. How long before someone kills a gay person in the attempt to appease their god?

It's been done before. It's not merely expressing an opinion; it's a call to action; it's a call to violence.
 
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bekkilyn

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Thanks for your answer. Ive gone down the path of looking at the religion. My experiences have been terrible - just terrible.

Still I choose to come here and engage in discussion - But even here I see so much hate and bigotry and abandonment of science and..... I rarely see love here. So I choose to go with my parents to our Buddhist monastery and keep my distance from the church.

Some forms of Christianity seem to be very attractive to sociopaths. It can be very easy to hide deviant behavior behind the guise of religion.
 
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Halbhh

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Some forms of Christianity seem to be very attractive to sociopaths. It can be very easy to hide deviant behavior behind the guise of religion.
My theory is that there is sort of very on the right (maybe far right) where there is an urge for a fixed, clear identity, that is stable, and one totally has a place, knows one's place, and all is under control. Unchanging.

It's thus very traditional minded. They want the stable old way things were in some own-idealized idea of how things were, in the past. So, any old institution is a potential candidate means to gather around, for a tool.

It could be monarchy.

Or some kind of special nationalism. Say the Confederate Flag/South Will Rise Again, or such.

Or an old religion they have known of in youth. (but any! whatever that religion happened to be, back then)

The old thing is just a....surface to operate on. Like a projection screen or a table.

There, they can use it to agitate for a rigid authoritarian social system where disorder and change are held at bay. But more important, where they have a clear strong place, and can establish their order, how they feel is right -- Order.

Just a theory. Probably somewhat true, and no doubt missing some things/aspects.

Now, it's not that the "right" is evil by nature. Human nature tends towards things like power lust. It can happen on the "left" also, like under Mao in China, or the Khmer Rouge for instance. So, for instances like Germany in the 1930s, one could also point to China especially after 1958, the 'Great Leap Forward' for instance, but the Cambodian example is more extreme...and that lust for power isn't itself part of left or right, but human nature unbalanced. (or without God as the one in the position of being God fully enough (more totally); I'm not sure about this last, but at least that if God is the one in top position, then...when one's preferences (like xenophobia) contradict what God says, like about refugees, when God is really on top, we will accept God's instruction: love those foreign refugees as our true neighbors, love them as ourselves)
 
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stevevw

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I was really hoping - Just for once, that you and other Christians would see the wrong in this. To see the silence in response to his ridiculous claims, and outright reject it. To state that even though he has said it in a church and posted it on youtube, that it is utterly wrong and obnoxiously errant to cite the poor women who had to opt for abortion and the gay community are all to blame for so much death and destruction.

I'm really shocked that your answer and other Christians isn't simply - yes - that was rubbish and he shouldn't be spreading such lies in the name of Christianity.

This has been my experience with Christianity and why I ultimately opted to not call myself a Christian anymore - I just can't stomach this hate and vitriol that's wrapped in the cloak of piousness.
Yeah I disagree with linking the fires to people sinning. It is not connected and especially at a time when so many are suffering. But it is not too dissimilar to the Greens senator Adam Bandt blaming our PM Scott Morrison for the devastation of the fires.

It is also not too dissimilar to the modern the Greta Thonberg "How dare you" movement which blames the past generation for they lifestyle of waste and excess and how this has destroyed the earth for future generations. She was condemning people for the way they lived and carried on like it was so evil because they are to blame for the disasters caused by climate change such as the fires, floods (sea level rises) and big storms.
 
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stevevw

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Obviously people pushing things like hate,violence, child abuse, marital abuse, genocide, torture, discrimination and a cart full of other evils have no problem quoting the bible to support their position. When people do this they need to be called out and made to face the consequences of their choices to abuse the truth. just like when you take that sentiment and twist it into the suggestion that no one will be allowed to quote the bible needs to called out.
Whose doing the abuse. I am not sure where your coming from. Folau doesn't promote any of those things. Why would we call out people and make them face consequences for expressing their beliefs in a private setting. This calling out people and making them face consequences sounds awe-fully like the same thing people are saying about what Folau is doing.

People can express their views on things as a private citizen, that is the beauty of a free Democratic society. If we start policing people in their private place to not be able to say certain things and then make then face consequences this begins to sound like the Nazi Gestapo.
 
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stevevw

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Not that I am condoning what Folau said and how he made the link with the bush-fires but people have once again twisted what Folau said. He was preaching about how modern society like Sodom and Gomorrah were sinning and how God judged and punished them. This is especially prophesied in revelation about how there will be disasters reined upon the earth in the end time. He did not just single out gays again but mentioned a range of sins which once again the bible states.

He was preaching in a church and that is where that kind of stuff happens. The question is am asking and what I have been predicting is can Christians be allowed to preach about these things in their own church. Will society ban religious belief and preaching and quoting the bible.
 
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Halbhh

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modern society like Sodom and Gomorrah were sinning and how God judged

Perhaps you agreed 100% with post #841...

And while it's fine to try to warn a society generally about sin, such will not at all seem to single out just 1 sin chosen as if (even by appearance even) just a prejudice, because it's not just 1 thing. As if the person has an ax to grind about something, like gambling, or sabbath keeping, or some political thing. Right? Well, that's true!.... But. There is a but. Because something else is happening here instead of that I think.

But if a person believes in God, instead of only using God....

then they should...-- perhaps not 'should', but...will -- they will want to know what He said, more He said -- not just a list of doctrines they got from random chance, not just their own preferences or those of their (chance) pastor they happen to have (or far worse would be if that pastor was picked for political views, but let's hope not! Let's assume it's far less error than that)....

So, wanting to know what God said, then a person would read more.

More.

They would read more. If they really believe. Unless they have an unusual fear of just reading, or instance. Or maybe some odd fear that they have to go to a bible study (which we might help them learn is merely optional, and usually best 2nd, not 1rst; first one should just read more of the Bible, with pure reading to hear the big lessons).

So, then, in time, a person could learn "how God judged" Sodom and Gomorrah, or "Sodom and her daughters" as the Bible words it (I suppose many never have read that even....)... and then, instead of being just our notions (errors, prejudice, wrongness), we'd instead have the real thing about how God judged.

The Word, instead of our random doctrinal idea.

Since I'm older and have read, and found the direct answer, I'm going to bring it here just to illustrate this bigger principle.

First, people usually think, reasonably, that they already know.

For instance, something like: Sodom was destroyed because the Lord sent the two angels, and then "all the men of the city young and old" came and wanted to rape them (and possibly worse).

That was certainly a major and serious level of sin itself, already, and also showed, more importantly, that the evils, whatever all they were, were very complete in the city, since it was "all" the men, both young and old. It was a total cultural takeover by evil.

Already, it feels justified to intervene and wipe out the city. Just from the very partial information, the famous know passage, in Genesis.

But what were those evils? What all caused the "outcry" mentioned in Genesis?

20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

Kinda what many already know. (some may not even know this famous passage, but many would.)

But it's not were we learn what all the evils in "Sodom and her daughters" were.

And, that's why it's so bad to hear Sodom mentioned in such a way that people are just left with a vague impression of mere bigotry/prejudice!!

Regardless of precisely what was said, somehow "Sodom" got mentioned, and now it looks like mere 'bigotry', which is about the same level of wrong, itself, as racism.

It's as if 'Christians' are merely like racists. Evil people.

But, if one had learned why Sodom and her sister cities were destroyed, then that error of bringing up Sodom would not have happened to begin with!!

!

And the huge damage to Christianity's name among the lost by making Christianity appear merely about like racism would not have happened.


So, one learns the actual, real reason for why Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed in Ezekiel chapter 16, which is best, like any thing in the bible, read in at minimum as a full passage, and here that's simply the chapter as a whole.

It's actually one of the most...gripping and surprising chapters in the Old Testament, in a way, and invaluable to know about, to understand why God punished Judah so severely -- they had done worse than Sodom.

And Sodom had done worse than most people have read and learned. By far.

Ezekiel 16 NIV

Because some people (among the many that will read this post) just can't bring themselves to read anything, I'll offer a summary of a kind --

Zero charity (!)
Arrogance
Haughtiness even (an aggravated form that is more than only arrogance alone).
Detestable acts -- here one could put the attempt to rape the 2 visitors, but that would only be one instance of detestable acts, of which we can guess there are many, and Jewish sources also list things like burning one young woman in fire for trying to feed a hungry visitor. (* see footnote)

"49“ ‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me."

Evil had taken over in a very total way.

Australia isn't really like this...is it?


------------------
footnote
More about Sodom from other Jewish sources:
"The Sodomites were notorious for their wickedness. They had no consideration for the poor, nor for the passing stranger to whom they offered no hospitality; nor would they even sell him any food or water. Once they had found out that Plitith, Lot’s daughter, had secretly given food to a stranger who was near starvation, and they burned her in public. Another time, when they discovered that a young girl had fed a starving beggar, they smeared honey all over her and placed her upon the city wall, so that she died from the stings of the bees attracted by the honey."
The Destruction of Sodom
 
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Zoii

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He was preaching in a church and that is where that kind of stuff happens

Heck Steve - You say you don't condone it - then you give a long answer why its excusable - He was preaching it to a congregation who spread the word and put it on the internet - What ALL Christians should have done was to have the integrity to stand up at that point and go - WHOA - That's not what we Christians think - They should have denounced that statement that he or someone from his congregation thought to push more widely via the internet.

But NO - The Christian community was silent - It colluded. Even you Steve - your answer really should be - That was vitriol and unfounded - But you don't - you find excuses for him for his spread of scapegoating.
 
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Cis.jd

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Heck Steve - You say you don't condone it - then you give a long answer why its excusable - He was preaching it to a congregation who spread the word and put it on the internet - What ALL Christians should have done was to have the integrity to stand up at that point and go - WHOA - That's not what we Christians think - They should have denounced that statement that he or someone from his congregation thought to push more widely via the internet.

But NO - The Christian community was silent - It colluded. Even you Steve - your answer really should be - That was vitriol and unfounded - But you don't - you find excuses for him for his spread of scapegoating.

Have you had any chance to see the theology forums and just see how crazy, unintelligent, and just immoral so many of them are over there?

They think they are the "real christians" because the way they shell themselves is "well, the ones are not of christ can't see unlike me"...I can give you names (on PM of course) but imagine trying to stand up to christians, and one of them is amongst the crowds and calls you "of this world guy" and contradicts the damage control.

I guess it's best to just be silent. Just walk away...

in a new response to this thread, i think it's understandable/ethical to fire Christians for their beliefs depending on what it is. If I see an colleague who is physically abused by her spouse and some christian rebukes her thoughts of separation because of Bible nonsense (yes, there are ton of people here)then, yes, fire that person and tell him/her to pray for his bills to be paid.
 
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stevevw

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Heck Steve - You say you don't condone it - then you give a long answer why its excusable - He was preaching it to a congregation who spread the word and put it on the internet - What ALL Christians should have done was to have the integrity to stand up at that point and go - WHOA - That's not what we Christians think - They should have denounced that statement that he or someone from his congregation thought to push more widely via the internet.

But NO - The Christian community was silent - It colluded. Even you Steve - your answer really should be - That was vitriol and unfounded - But you don't - you find excuses for him for his spread of scapegoating.
I already said I disagree with what Folau said. But me saying that people have a right to express their religious beliefs does not mean I condone what Folau said. You are confusing two separate issues with each other. He said this as a preacher inside a church. If someone decided to put that on social media that is not Folau's fault. Plus how do you know what the person wrote was correct. People are basing what he said and the context on misinformation.

By me trying to explain the reasoning behind what Folau said was to help people understand religious thinking which has been with us for thousands of years. Why do people get so outraged when they already know this is what some religions believe and have done for a long time. This is part of the outrage culture that condemns people in the same way they are accusing Folau with hatred and vitriol. Why isn't anyone saying something about this.

What Folau has done has been done by religious people and preacher for 100's of year., its nothing new. It just seems that people are more outraged nowadays. Folau wasn't just speaking about a single group of people but rather a number of sins but people once again twist the truth to make it sound worse.
Besides what about Greta Thonberg and others who claim that my generations lifestyle has caused the bush-fires and and are responsible for those who died. the destruction of the earth. That is an attack on many peoples way of living but they are not going crazy over it but rather except it as part of freedom of speech.

You keep forgetting this was said in a private setting in a place that people expect those sort of things to be said. Why so surprised. Yes I disagree with the way Folau preaches but I support the right for him and Greta to express their beliefs even if that may offend some. Here is a question for you to consider.

Are you proposing that we police what believers say in their own church and groups.
 
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Zoii

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He said this as a preacher inside a church. If someone decided to put that on social media that is not Folau's fault

Yes, Steve - Not in private but in a public forum - what exactly is he trying to incite. This is how gays get bashed and women stabbed as she tries to enter a family planning clinic - Some insane ranter like Folau sprays hate and incites someone to act on his recommendations.

Plus how do you know what the person wrote was correct.

What are you talking about? - Didn't you listen to the video?

By me trying to explain the reasoning behind what Folau said was to help people understand religious thinking which has been with us for thousands of years. Why do people get so outraged when they already know this is what some religions believe and have done for a long time. This is part of the outrage culture that condemns people in the same way they are accusing Folau with hatred and vitriol. Why isn't anyone saying something about this.

What Folau has done has been done by religious people and preacher for 100's of year., its nothing new. It just seems that people are more outraged nowadays. Folau wasn't just speaking about a single group of people but rather a number of sins but people once again twist the truth to make it sound worse.
Besides what about Greta Thonberg and others who claim that my generations lifestyle has caused the bush-fires and and are responsible for those who died. the destruction of the earth. That is an attack on many peoples way of living but they are not going crazy over it but rather except it as part of freedom of speech.

And there you go again - You say you don't condone it - then fill the rest of your post with a thousand reasons why it's OK really -

You keep forgetting this was said in a private setting in a place that people expect those sort of things to be said

No it wasn't - it was said in a church

Greta to express their beliefs

What on earth - Greta is is reiterating what Every single science agency in the world is advising - AND the UN consensus of climate scientists. SHE isn't telling people that gays and women are to blame. You now - you have such a hide trying to deflect this onto someone else - If you wanna talk about this stick to Folau because this is what the topic is about.

Are you proposing that we police what believers say in their own church and groups.

No, he can say what he wants - clearly, he's telling all Christians to blame bushfires, deaths, houses burnt etc on gays and women who have an abortion. And you seem to think that's OK. So no - he can say what he wants - free country - what gets me is the absolute hypocrisy of Christians who do not have the testicles to stand up against this unfounded hate speech. The silence of Christians on this matter is collusion.
 
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Paidiske

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I think that last line's going a bit far, Zoii.

I could spend my entire life running around refuting every stupid and harmful thing said by others (and in fact, Folau is not even a Christian, even by the definition on CF, as he denies the Trinity). And I do have to do a bit of that, especially as those stupid and harmful things directly harm people with whom I am in contact.

But mostly, I have positive things to be doing and saying. I have my own tasks and relationships to tend to. And in the way that I do that, hopefully I will convey my disagreement with this sort of sentiment, without having to be making speeches or posts about every single thing that hits the media.
 
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Zoii

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I think that last line's going a bit far, Zoii.

I could spend my entire life running around refuting every stupid and harmful thing said by others (and in fact, Folau is not even a Christian, even by the definition on CF, as he denies the Trinity). And I do have to do a bit of that, especially as those stupid and harmful things directly harm people with whom I am in contact.

But mostly, I have positive things to be doing and saying. I have my own tasks and relationships to tend to. And in the way that I do that, hopefully I will convey my disagreement with this sort of sentiment, without having to be making speeches or posts about every single thing that hits the media.
Yes, I am going too far - I'm annoyed and taking it out on poor Steve and everyone else.

I need to take a deep breath. Folau actually is a nice guy on so many levels - yet he is a symptom of radicalisation and fundamentalism that chooses an evangelistic path that isn't about bringing out the best in people, but rather scapegoating and identifying the faults in everyone and telling them how terrible they are.
 
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