Is it big news when the liberal Lutherans say the early Church was wrong on sex? Why not?

Michie

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Sean611

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I would say what the mainline churches (and their counterparts in Europe and everywhere else) have done in regards to flushing the Bible and their own doctrines down the toilet is a big deal. These actions muddle the faithful Christian witness and they make it that much harder for Christians who remain loyal to Scripture and to the teachings of the church on these matters. It must be said though, that these heresies, or whatever one wants to call them, are a result of these church bodies jettisoning their own doctrine and Scripture. What comes from this departure is simply a symptom of this truth.

I just wish these mainline churches would be honest in who and what they are. They should form one United mainline church and drop the denominational qualifiers (Episcopal/Anglican, Lutheran, etc.). I left the Episcopal Church when it became almost impossible to remain a faithful Anglican. Leadership largely just doesn't care about the canons, constitution, practice, or doctrines of the church anymore. After all, we can't let any of that 'Anglican' stuff get in the way of our modern sensibility and the fact that we are right! <sarcasm>
 
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Michie

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It is completely without proof, either historically and traditionally, biblically, or in the fathers' writings. Completely, one hundred percent contrary, in fact. Completely foreign to the Jewish faith, too. However, it's perfectly valid and reasonable in paganism and secular culture. You and I choose to be wheat; others choose to be chaff because it feels better in the present.
I agree. Reading that stuff though... :eek:
 
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Kenny'sID

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One thing I always find interesting when someone is promoting ways other than Gods, is that those who promote Gods ways are always such terrible people. Terrible as in, hateful, discriminatory, one of my personal favorites "bound by/dependent on the law", lacking in the love of Jesus, and so forth. IOW, if you stick with God, you should feel guilty.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
 
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Kenny'sID

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And yet not totally clear. There is a needed distinction between homosexual acts on one hand and people who do homosexual acts and even same sex attractions. The acts are evil, the actors are people created in the image of God even as they may do evil acts, and the attractions are not acts in themselves. So to say one discriminates against homosexuality needs to be unpacked a bit.

It's a lot simpler than all that to me...a lot.

Matthew 5:27-28King James Version (KJV)
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:


28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.


I can't for the life of me find the following in any search, so not sure where I got it from, but I like the way it's put

If you have done it in you mind, you have done it already.
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Saint Paul wrote a rock solid defense against things like this.

Galatians 1:8 KJV
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 
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Michie

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From the article:
So if the Nashville Statement was big news, then it made sense that--for a few reporters and columnists (including me)-- that the Denver Statement was also news. (Oddly enough, a previous statement on sexuality by the Orthodox Church in America--strikingly similar to the Nashville Statement--made zero news
 
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chevyontheriver

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I can't for the life of me find the following in any search, so not sure where I got it from, but I like the way it's put

If you have done it in you mind, you have done it already.
That is a half-truth. One sins in one's mind, willing it, choosing it, firing the neurons to make the body do it on occasion.

But there are all sorts of thoughts which do not rise to the level of sin. If one sees a beautiful woman, that does not mean one has 'done it in your mind'. There is a spectrum of seeing, of appreciating, of dwelling on, of obsessing. So too for those who react to someone of the same sex as others to the complimentary sex. Not every disordered thought also rises to being a sinful thought. Some do. Some don't. So while your aphorism has grains of truth in it, it is by no means absolute.

Does one discriminate against homosexual acts, homosexual thoughts, homosexuals, homosexual inclinations? In some ways we really should discriminate. It's the right thing to do. In others we should not. You were not clear which was which.

Catholic teaching on homosexuality is partilally but substantially found here: Homosexuality
 
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chevyontheriver

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From the article:
So if the Nashville Statement was big news, then it made sense that--for a few reporters and columnists (including me)-- that the Denver Statement was also news. (Oddly enough, a previous statement on sexuality by the Orthodox Church in America--strikingly similar to the Nashville Statement that created a mini media storm with a statement of some ancient Christian doctrines on homosexuality.
So this Lutheran pastor in Denver opposes the Nashville Statement. I suppose that's news. But the context is the Nashville Statement and the point Mattingly was making was that the context mattered.

What also is news is that Jennifer Roback Morse, the Catholic who is head of the Ruth Institute has signed the Nashville Statement. That statement was by and for Evangelicals, but now is opened up for other Christians. That some Lutherans and others can't abide by it, well, scary I guess.
 
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Kenny'sID

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But there are all sorts of thoughts which do not rise to the level of sin.

You weren't clear then on what you meant. So, no, considering the circumstances, it was not a half truth.

You feel considering Homosexuality as a reality for ones self is not sin?
 
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Kenny'sID

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But there are all sorts of thoughts which do not rise to the level of sin. If one sees a beautiful woman, that does not mean one has 'done it in your mind'.

You honestly don't see the difference in the two?

Did you know one was acceptable in some form, and the other an abomination, and acceptable in no form?

This may be JMO, but accepting anything to do with it, no matter how crafty we are in doing so, is letting it in the door, and once we do that, what next? another crafty move?
 
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chevyontheriver

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You weren't clear then on what you meant. So, no, considering the circumstances, it was not a half truth.

You feel considering Homosexuality as a reality for ones self is not sin?
First, it doesn't fit me at all. But if I did have some same sex attraction, that in itself would not be sin, but deciding to self-identify as homosexual, especially if one is planning on going ahead with doing homosexual acts, now that would be wrong.

Same if I have a complementary sex attraction, which I do. Deciding to self-identify as a playboy, especially as one who plans to live like a playboy, now that is equally wrong.

It's a half-truth. Thoughts that do not rise to the level of dwelling on or obsessing on the thought are not sins. They may be disordered. But not every thought of a sexual nature is sin, even for those who have thoughts of same sex attraction. It's the thoughts that rise to the level of dwelling on and obsessing that are the sins.
 
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chevyontheriver

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You honestly don't see the difference in the two?
Ah, but I do. Big difference between a thought that enters the mind and quickly exits as opposed to one that lingers and festers.
Did you know one was acceptable in some form, and the other an abomination, and acceptable in no form?

This may be JMO, but accepting anything to do with it, no matter how crafty we are in doing so, is letting it in the door, and once we do that, what next? another crafty move?
It's not about crafty moves. It's about thoughts that enter the mind and then pass. Those, no matter who you are, are not sinful. It's when you dwell on them, to disordered ends, that it's sin.
 
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Sean611

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I would just like to add the thought that biblical/doctrinally faithful churches/denominations/synods/communions would do well to issue a statement condemning what has happened with heterosexual marriage and the joke it has become in many non-Catholic churches. If we are to be taken seriously with our biblical and traditional approach to marriage, we must clean up our own backyards. How many of the signers of the Nashville Statement have allowed 3rd, 4th, or 5th marriages in their churches?

I don't agree with every aspect in regards to the way the RCC handles divorce/remarriage, but you can't say that they are not serious about the sanctity of marriage. Personally, I think many faithful non-Catholic churches have a lot we can learn from our Catholic brothers and sisters about marriage.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I would just like to add the thought that biblical/doctrinally faithful churches/denominations/synods/communions would do well to issue a statement condemning what has happened with heterosexual marriage and the joke it has become in many non-Catholic churches. If we are to be taken seriously with our biblical and traditional approach to marriage, we must clean up our own backyards. How many of the signers of the Nashville Statement have allowed 3rd, 4th, or 5th marriages in their churches?

I don't agree with every aspect in regards to the way the RCC handles divorce/remarriage, but you can't say that they are not serious about the sanctity of marriage. Personally, I think many faithful non-Catholic churches have a lot we can learn from our Catholic brothers and sisters about marriage.
We Catholics don't handle marriage all that great. Oh, in theory we do, but the culture has done us great damage too. But it would be good if other Protestants could get back to what we all once believed about marriage. Perhaps together we could make it look like less of a joke.

Now the Nashville Statement is good as far as it goes. Actually great as far as it goes. It could have gone farther, but the good and the perfect should not be enemies. That the Nashville Statement did not consider every single thing about marriage, and didn't even address divorce and remarriage, might be a flaw, but condemning it for that lack would be the perfect condemning the good. I think we should be happy for the Nashville Statement. And then hope for advancement and recovery of Biblical sexuality in it's entirety.

To do that, it would be a smart move for Evangelicals and other conservative Protestants to look to maybe steal some ideas from pope John Paul II's 'Theology of the Body'. Please, steal away. I for one am not going to complain. I'll even help a bit. It is the teaching we should have had to turn the sexual revolution into something truly positive for humanity. Now it's something that can bring us all back from sexual insanity.

In the mean time the Nashville Statement is a start. Just a start.
 
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SolomonVII

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Men having babies and women with penises is the law in Canada now.
Good to see that Lutherans are falling in line with the New Truth.
The truth will make you into good subject of the New Order

There is no God but Marx and Orwell is his Prophet.
Allahu Marx.
 
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