Is it Biblical to separate the moral law from the other parts of the Law?

[Steve Petersen]

Salvation has national overtones in the Jewish world. Individual salvation is a component of that.

Hello Ken.

I need some clarification from you.

Are you saying that the text (Romans 9:27) should be translated as below?

Romans 9
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will RETURN (be saved)."

Salvation - Wikipedia

 

[ToBeLoved]

Paul said you >>WERE<< a gentile and you want to show people you ARE a gentile. You are at odds with Scripture.

What verse are you speaking about?

You cannot accuse me of being at odds with scripture when we are not even talking about, nor do I know what scripture you are even referencing.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I didn't say anything about DNA....

Then ALL people are God's chosen people, not Hebrews.

Then Christians have as much right to the promises God made to all the patriarch's. The land, all of it, which would make the promised land a promise to everyone even the US. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Der Alte]

Sweetie, I got this off of Biblehub.
I'll link the pages so you know it's not just 'my' thinking but actually Biblical/Bible. Please follow the 'links' so you can see for yourself. This might be a good way for you to study from now on so I will show you.
Go to this page/link
Isaiah 10:22 Interlinear: For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, A remnant doth return of it, A consumption determined, Overflowing with righteousness. (Hebrew of Isaiah 10:22 )
detail on the link for this word. The word, šə·’ār (not the nuber 7605) Note the (e) in parentheses
7605 [e]

šə·’ār
שְׁאָ֖ר
[yet] a remnant
Noun
That will take you to this page Hebrew Concordance: šə·’ār -- 8 Occurrences
Now, notice on the left side that the original word šə·’ār — 8 Occurrences, while on the left side is the root word as well as all the forms of the root word, which is Strong's Hebrew 7605 26 Occurrences

I happen to have Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon one of, if not, the most highly accredited lexicons. Just for fun here is the definition of the word in question from BDB.. The dagger symbol † before the head word indicates the definition includes every occurrence of the word in the Bible.

†שְׁאָר S7605, 7606 TWOT2307a, 3013 GK8637 n.m. Is 16:14 rest, residue, remnant ( = יֶתֶר, especially Is. and late; on form Kö. 1, 141 NöBeitr. z. Sem. W. 30);—שׁ׳ abs. Is 14:22 +, cstr. Is 10:19 +;—rest, residue, remainder, of trees Is 10:19, silver 2 Ch 24:14, city 1 Ch 11:8, territory Est 9:12; שׁ׳ דִּבְרֵי שְׁלֹמהֹ 2 Ch 9:29 (יֶתֶר in || 1 K 11:41, and usually in like phrase, v. p. 451 f.); of men 1 Ch 16:41; Ezr 3:8; 4:3, 7; Ne 10:29; 11:1, 20; Est 9:16; of Moab Is 16:14; Aram 17:3 ( = last remnant), archers of Kedar 21:17; = posterity, שֵׁם וּשׁ׳ וְנִין וָנֶכֶד Is 14:22 (of Babylon); שׁ׳ הַבַּעַל Zp 1:4, i.e. Baal, to the last remnant, vestige (so We al.; שֵׁם, cf. Schwally Now GASm); term. techn. = purified remnant of Israel (GieBeiträge 37 f.) Is 10:20 (|| פְּלֵיטָה), v 21(), 22; 11:11, 16; 28:5.—וּשׁ׳ רוּחַ לוֹ Mal 2:15 is obscure; read וַיַּשְׁאֵר ר׳ לָנוּ We Now, cf. GASm.
Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. (1977). Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (p. 984). Oxford: Clarendon Press.​

 

[Open Heart]

Is it Biblical to separate the moral law from the other parts of the Law (like ceremonial laws, etc.)?

And discuss.


...

Certainly the Israelites made no separation.

In my humble opinion, the separation between moral law and ceremonial law is simply one that Christians make FOR CONVENIENCE. They don't want to be bothered by ceremonial law, so they just get rid of it.

Now there are some laws that can't be kept. We can't make a peace offering anymore because there is no temple. But that doesn't mean you can't keep the other laws.

A much better question is WHO are those laws for? The answer is ISRAEL. Over and over, it is written, And the LORD said, "Speak to the Children of Isreal, saying..." It does NOT say, "Speak to the World," or "Speak to the Nations." So I really don't think that a Gentile Christian needs to worry about keeping the Sabbath or avoiding shrimp.

But there are indeed some laws that are universal. We are required to love our neighbor as ourselves. That means no murder, no adultery, no stealing, etc. These universal laws are largely spoken of in the NT, or they may be reasoned out.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Certainly the Israelites made no separation.

In my humble opinion, the separation between moral law and ceremonial law is simply one that Christians make FOR CONVENIENCE. They don't want to be bothered by ceremonial law, so they just get rid of it.

Now there are some laws that can't be kept. We can't make a peace offering anymore because there is no temple. But that doesn't mean you can't keep the other laws.

A much better question is WHO are those laws for? The answer is ISRAEL. Over and over, it is written, And the LORD said, "Speak to the Children of Isreal, saying..." It does NOT say, "Speak to the World," or "Speak to the Nations." So I really don't think that a Gentile Christian needs to worry about keeping the Sabbath or avoiding shrimp.

But there are indeed some laws that are universal. We are required to love our neighbor as ourselves. That means no murder, no adultery, no stealing, etc. These universal laws are largely spoken of in the NT, or they may be reasoned out.

But there are ceremonial laws that do not apply anymore. The Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, not eating unclean animals, and animal sacrifices, etc. are not a part of the New Covenant. Knowing the three part division of the Law helps us to understand that many of the OT's laws that do not apply anymore are ceremonial. This is not to say there are no ceremonial laws under the New Covenant. There is baptism and the keeping of the Lord's supper (done in remembrance of Him).


...

 

[Steve Petersen]

But there are ceremonial laws that do not apply anymore. The Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, not eating unclean animals, and animal sacrifices, etc. are not a part of the New Covenant. Knowing the three part division of the Law helps us to understand that many of the OT's laws that do not apply anymore are ceremonial. This is not to say there are no ceremonial laws under the New Covenant. There is baptism and the keeping of the Lord's supper (done in remembrance of Him).


...

Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void

 

[ToBeLoved]

I happen to have Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon one of, if not, the most highly accredited lexicons. Just for fun here is the definition of the word in question from BDB.. The dagger symbol † before the head word indicates the definition includes every occurrence of the word in the Bible.

†שְׁאָר S7605, 7606 TWOT2307a, 3013 GK8637 n.m. Is 16:14 rest, residue, remnant ( = יֶתֶר, especially Is. and late; on form Kö. 1, 141 NöBeitr. z. Sem. W. 30);—שׁ׳ abs. Is 14:22 +, cstr. Is 10:19 +;—rest, residue, remainder, of trees Is 10:19, silver 2 Ch 24:14, city 1 Ch 11:8, territory Est 9:12; שׁ׳ דִּבְרֵי שְׁלֹמהֹ 2 Ch 9:29 (יֶתֶר in || 1 K 11:41, and usually in like phrase, v. p. 451 f.); of men 1 Ch 16:41; Ezr 3:8; 4:3, 7; Ne 10:29; 11:1, 20; Est 9:16; of Moab Is 16:14; Aram 17:3 ( = last remnant), archers of Kedar 21:17; = posterity, שֵׁם וּשׁ׳ וְנִין וָנֶכֶד Is 14:22 (of Babylon); שׁ׳ הַבַּעַל Zp 1:4, i.e. Baal, to the last remnant, vestige (so We al.; שֵׁם, cf. Schwally Now GASm); term. techn. = purified remnant of Israel (GieBeiträge 37 f.) Is 10:20 (|| פְּלֵיטָה), v 21(), 22; 11:11, 16; 28:5.—וּשׁ׳ רוּחַ לוֹ Mal 2:15 is obscure; read וַיַּשְׁאֵר ר׳ לָנוּ We Now, cf. GASm.
Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. (1977). Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (p. 984). Oxford: Clarendon Press.​

That is the one I used also.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Luke 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void

Jesus was talking about the Law AND the prophets.
He was referring to the whole of Old Testament Scripture.


...

 

[Open Heart]

But there are ceremonial laws that do not apply anymore. The Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, not eating unclean animals, and animal sacrifices, etc. are not a part of the New Covenant. Knowing the three part division of the Law helps us to understand that many of the OT's laws that do not apply anymore are ceremonial. This is not to say there are no ceremonial laws under the New Covenant. There is baptism and the keeping of the Lord's supper (done in remembrance of Him).


...

I understand where you are coming from. I was raised with this POV.

What I'm saying, which I think is more honest, is that the three point division is artificial. Jews don't have it. The reason Christians don't immerse after menstruation, avoid shrimp, and offer animal sacrifices is for one simple reason: they are GENTILES and these laws were given to Israel.

 

[Soyeong]

Is it Biblical to separate the moral law from the other parts of the Law (like ceremonial laws, etc.)?

And discuss.


...

No, morality is based on God's character, we ought to live according to God's character, and all of God's Law instruct us how to live according to His character, so they are all inherently moral laws. It is always immoral to disobey any of God's commands.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Jesus was talking about the Law AND the prophets.
He was referring to the whole of Old Testament Scripture.


...

Which includes the Law...

 

[Ken Rank]

Hello Ken.

I need some clarification from you.

Are you saying that the text (Romans 9:27) should be translated as below?

Romans 9
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will RETURN (be saved)."

Yes... if you'll notice, the Romans verse starts with, "Israel cries concerning Israel" and then we go into quotes, Paul is quoting Isaiah now.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.

Isaiah 10:22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Paul is quoting something written in Hebrew and he either writes it in Greek or Paul's words are translated into Greek. Either way, we have the origin (Isaiah) in Hebrew and the repeat of the verse in Greek which means we have taken one language into another. The Greek uses sodzo which is usually "saved" or "delivered" but the Hebrew being quotes uses a form of shuv (y'shuv - יָשׁוְּב ) which means to return or turn back. Now, since Paul is also quoting Hosea in the previous verses which is speaking about the punishment of Israel (the Northern Kingdom) and their promised return...

Hosea 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God.
Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.'
Hosea 1:11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel Shall be gathered together, And appoint for themselves one head; And they shall come up out of the land, For great will be the day of Jezreel!

They go from "not my people" to "sons of the Living God." A promised return, first spoken in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

My point... the context is speaking of a return and the language in Isaiah is speaking of a return. When Isaiah go quoted and taken into another language they used the closest word possible which when taken into English, tends to mean "saved" above "return." So we translate it "saved" when clearly it should be return.

 

[Ken Rank]

What verse are you speaking about?

You cannot accuse me of being at odds with scripture when we are not even talking about, nor do I know what scripture you are even referencing.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands--
Ephesians 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

So, once a gentile in the flesh, at that time without Christ, an alien of the Commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise who also had no hope.... HAVE NOW been brought near... and NOW:

Ephesians 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

"Aliens of the Commonwealth of Israel" is now "fellow citizens with the saints." We WERE gentiles, we are now part of Israel.

 

[Ken Rank]

Then ALL people are God's chosen people, not Hebrews.

Then Christians have as much right to the promises God made to all the patriarch's. The land, all of it, which would make the promised land a promise to everyone even the US. Is that what you are saying?

Salvation is a heart condition, period. There is a plan for Israel and to deny that is to deny a great deal of prophesy. But in the end, genetics are not what saves us, a heart turned toward God is.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Ken.

You may have missed the point of what Paul is saying.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.

Isaiah 10:22 For though your people, O Israel, be as the sand of the sea, A remnant of them will return; The destruction decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Paul is quoting from Isaiah, this chapter of Isaiah is talking about the return of Israel to her homeland after captivity. This quotation in Isaiah is but the shadow of the latter fulfillment in Christ.

Shadow (return) in the Old Testament becomes fulfillment (salvation) in the New Testament.

 

[Ken Rank]

Hello Ken.

You may have missed the point of what Paul is saying.

Paul is quoting from Isaiah, this chapter of Isaiah is talking about the return of Israel to her homeland after captivity. This quotation in Isaiah is but the shadow of the latter fulfillment in Christ.

Shadow (return) in the Old Testament becomes fulfillment (salvation) in the New Testament.

I agree with you on everything but the last sentence you shared. That is a fine Christian way of making sense of this but when God promises to bring Israel home... when He promises to punish them and scatter them into the nations and then call them to "return," you're right, that is a form of salvation and I can show the word "saved" being used that way in many places. But... that doesn't change the fact that Israel was promised to and will... return.