Is it better to never have been born then to live with the possibility of going to hell?

[DarkSoul999]

Yes, God created this stupid place. Any more questions?

uhhh yea did he put any thought into this place whatsoever? Supposedly certain things were "good" and "very good" but the standard was clearly never very high....

 

[SkyWriting]

uhhh yea did he put any thought into this place whatsoever? Supposedly certain things were "good" and "very good" but the standard was clearly never very high....

Oh this lpace is not the creation covered in Genesis. That was the creation of the Garden Paradise.
But then:
23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guardthe way to the tree of life.

 

[DarkSoul999]

Oh this lpace is not the creation covered in Genesis. That was the creation of the Garden Paradise.
But then:
23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guardthe way to the tree of life.

Well that much is obvious. This place is a pile of crap and I hate it with a passion.

 

[SkyWriting]

Well that much is obvious. This place is a pile of crap and I hate it with a passion.

Does that help you? What is good for you when hating it?

 

[DarkSoul999]

Does that help you? Do you get benefits from hating it?

Does it matter? Our species is a hopeless mess and so is the planet.

 

[SkyWriting]

Does it matter? Our species is a hopeless mess and so is the planet.

So how is this view helping you?
I assume you are not trying to make things worse for yourself.
So how is this making your life better? There must be some benefits.

 

[DarkSoul999]

So how is this view helping you?
I assume you are not trying to make things worse for yourself.
So how is this making your life better? There must be some benefits.

I have zero control over my life. The universe is governed by forces that we can't even understand let alone control. The things that have true meaning to me are entirely unreachable at this time and only random fortune may bring them into fruition.

I consider myself to be a very cold person but it absolutely amazes me how people can simply ignore how utterly hellish this place is! They laugh and relax like everything is ok...

The only benefit is that I'm motivated by anger. I never sit idle.

 

[SkyWriting]

I have zero control over my life. The universe is governed by forces that we can't even understand let alone control. The things that have true meaning to me are entirely unreachable at this time and only random fortune may bring them into fruition.

I consider myself to be a very cold person but it absolutely amazes me how people can simply ignore how utterly hellish this place is! They laugh and relax like everything is ok...

The only benefit is that I'm motivated by anger. I never sit idle.

So how is this anger helping you?
I imagine you're not cutting yourself right now.
This presumption on my part says you are at least
working in your own self interest. I realize this is a
pollyanna view. You may be swallowing poison
as I type this. I assume your ability to type means
the blood is not flowing over the keys and the poison
is not frothing from your face.

You don't have a shotgun pointed at the monitor or
at yourself at this moment? My brother did that and
is no longer with us.

"Zero control" would indicate horse tranquilizers. Good friends
of mine have done that. Unable to even speak for hours.

So how does this view of the world improve your well being?

 

[DarkSoul999]

So how is this anger helping you?
I imagine you're not cutting yourself right now.
This presumption on my part says you are at least
working in your own self interest. I realize this is a
pollyanna view. You may be swallowing poison
as I type this. I assume your ability to type means
the blood is not flowing over the keys and the poison
is not frothing from your face.

You don't have a shotgun pointed at the monitor or
at yourself at this moment? My brother did that and
is no longer with us.

"Zero control" would indicate horse tranquilizers. Good friends
of mine have done that. Unable to even speak for hours.

So how does this view of the world improve your well being?

Eventually I am going to die and be totally forgotten and the world will continue to be filled with unending misery, cruelty, and destruction. There is almost nothing good in this world and we can never really be sure if Jesus will accept us into heaven. In order to not contemplate the obvious reality I have to drink an obscene amount of alcohol which is exactly what I'm going to do tonight. Fortunately I am a "happy drunk" but it takes a considerable amount of poison to get there. It is more of a habit now because I can't fall asleep without it.

To answer your question: no none of this helps me...and neither does anything else. At least when I'm angry I feel more alive.

 

[SkyWriting]

To answer your question: no none of this helps me...and neither does anything else. At least when I'm angry I feel more alive.

Good! Anger makes you feel more alive.
Why is that? Does anger help you accomplish more?
Do you accomplish less when not angry?

 

[DarkSoul999]

Good! Anger makes you feel more alive.
Why is that? Does anger help you accomplish more?
Do you accomplish less when not angry?

That's actually a really good question! I'll need to reflect on that for a bit.

 

[2tim_215]

 

[Strong in Him]

Eventually I am going to die and be totally forgotten

We will all die one day, and eventually we may be forgotten by those we love, while others will simply never have known us.
But that day may not be for many years yet; there is still time to make a difference.

and the world will continue to be filled with unending misery, cruelty, and destruction.

Some - maybe most - of it might be, but it might not.

There is almost nothing good in this world

There is much that is good in this world - the beauty of nature, sunsets, the changing seasons; the many, many charities that exist and people who give their time, free of charge, to those charities and helping those less fortunate than themselves. And even though there is war, senseless violence, car crashes etc which cause horrific and life-changing injuries, there are people who have vowed not to let their disabilities define them, and have learnt to walk again, taken up a sport or whatever and achieved against all the odds.
I find many signs of hope, good and new life in this world.

and we can never really be sure if Jesus will accept us into heaven.

Maybe you don't have that assurance yet; many of us do.

In order to not contemplate the obvious reality I have to drink an obscene amount of alcohol

Well actually, no you don't - plenty of people exist and get through this life without drinking.
Maybe you have to now, in the sense that you are hooked on it. But it's possible to have a great ife without any alcohol at all.

Fortunately I am a "happy drunk" but it takes a considerable amount of poison to get there.

That's sad.

To answer your question: no none of this helps me...and neither does anything else. At least when I'm angry I feel more alive.

Anger, in one sense, can be good; people have been so angry about poverty, slavery, women's rights etc etc, that they've been motivated to fight for change.
Anger turned inward is depression, and some people become so angry with/full of hatred for themselves that they stop eating/overeat, self harm, take drugs - which is what alcohol is - or worse.

Cruel dictators, despots, terrorists, drug barons and those who withhold food and aid from others, are worthy of our anger. If you don't fall into any of those categories, you are not.

 

[BrotherDave]

"Possible" isn't very good. Some people get to live with the constant doubt about their own salvation which makes a relationship with God impossible. That lack of faith can damn them forever. So Hell in this life AND Hell in the next....

Well, that’s the problem. God says be anxious about nothing. We need to pray often, spend time in scripture and trust in the Lord. If he wills it we will be saved. Once saved we will have no or very little doubt about our salvation because we will have a very strong inner desire to live for God and find joy in reading the bible. One of the biggest indicators of salvation is a change in focus from things of this world to a drive for understanding scripture along with and an intense hatred of sin. When a truly saved individual falls into a sin he will know it and feel terrible, like David did.

Rather than be consumed with thoughts or Hell and punishment we should be striving for life eternal with Christ.

 

[BrotherDave]

Nonexistence is far less painful than eternal conscious torment.

True. But it remains that the loss of a soul is terrible. The individual will not consciously feel anything or realize the shame of his sin. But, recall how Jesus takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and even wept over Jerusalem. Everyone was created for such a glorious life we cannot even imagine and most just throw it away.

 

[BrotherDave]

How is it just to create someone knowing in advance that that person will end up in endless torment one day?

It is not. That’s why the idea of eternal torment does not jive with everything the Bible says about God’s love, mercy and justice. Remember the punishment for sin is death. Death means that’s it. Game over. You return to the dust of the earth until the earth and all sin and wickedness is destroyed forever by fire – just like Sodom & Gomorrah. There is no way an unsaved person will ever ever ever have a chance at life again.

How can God be just and bring a new life into the world only to take that life in death only days after birth and subject that soul to never ending punishment? Or on the flip side, how is it fair that a person can live life full of sin and then be saved moments before death, like the thief on the cross?

It may seem cruel to us mere mortals but we are His creation. God’s glory is witnessed by all his other creations (or principalities and powers) from everlasting past. He created us in His image. Gave us “conditional” perfection. We constantly fail by choosing to sin (remember even a single lustful thought dooms us to death) and yet he chose to come and assume the punishment for those He chose to save so we can live with Christ forever as originally intended. He even allows this world to turn so all the unsaved in some way help to show His glory and his mercy by allowing them to live until they die. Then end.

 

[Rajni]

It may seem cruel to us mere mortals but we are His creation. God’s glory is witnessed by all his other creations (or principalities and powers) from everlasting past. He created us in His image. Gave us “conditional” perfection. We constantly fail by choosing to sin (remember even a single lustful thought dooms us to death) and yet he chose to come and assume the punishment for those He chose to save so we can live with Christ forever as originally intended. He even allows this world to turn so all the unsaved in some way help to show His glory and his mercy by allowing them to live until they die. Then end.

While annihilationism is a smidge more humane than ECT, it still doesn’t give God enough credit for His ability and desire to heal that which needs healing.

How is it just to create someone knowing in advance that they will never enjoy eternal life in heaven? Knowing in advance that all the people who consider that person their loved one will never have the joy of spending eternity with them in heaven, and yet God, knowing this, creates that person anyway and lets others become attached to them knowing that in the end that person will be annihilated. How is it even sensible?

It’s as though Jesus’ sacrifice had little effect.

-

 

[Strong in Him]

How is it just to create someone knowing in advance that they will never enjoy eternal life in heaven?
-

If they were created pre-programmed to go to hell, it wouldn't be just, or loving. Which is why I don't believe that people are born with "one way ticket to hell" stamped on their foreheads.

We all have a choice; whether to seek God - seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened - or not. Whether to accept Jesus' words and claims about himself - I am the way, no one comes to the Father except through me - or not. Whether to receive eternal life - whoever has the Son has life, whoever does not have the Son, does not - or not.

Hell is eternal separation from God; never being able to repent, be forgiven and receive his love.
If someone has constantly and continually rejected God and the Gospel while they are alive - and I believe that a person has to know the Gospel before they can decide whether to reject it; when they die, God honours the choice they made. If someone died hating God and having completely rejected him, how would they enjoy heaven? For them, hell would be having to spend eternity in his presence, and in a place where he is constantly worshipped, praised and served.

Knowing in advance that all the people who consider that person their loved one will never have the joy of spending eternity with them in heaven, and yet God, knowing this, creates that person anyway and lets others become attached to them knowing that in the end that person will be annihilated. -

Scripture teaches about hell, not complete annihilation.
If everyone was going to be completely obliterated after death, we might as well just live exactly as we want to. Christian, atheist, humanist, JW, Mormon, good person, wicked terrorist; who cares, if once you die you are obliterated and completely forgotten?

 

[Rajni]

If they were created pre-programmed to go to hell, it wouldn't be just, or loving. Which is why I don't believe that people are born with one way ticket to hell stamped on their foreheads.

I agree. However, I'm not talking about about being pre-programmed, but rather something slightly different, yet just as bad, imo: God is creating them in spite of His already knowing—with His omniscient ability to see the end from the beginning—that they will never make it. I’m questioning the justice in that.

Hell is eternal separation from God; never being able to repent, be forgiven and receive his love.

Since God is omnipresent, I don’t believe one can be separated from Him.

If someone died hating God and having completely rejected him, how would they enjoy heaven? For them, hell would be having to spend eternity in his presence, and in a place where he is constantly worshipped, praised and served.

Here's the thing, though: If it would be hell anyway for them to be in God’s presence in heaven, why not just let them be in heaven? The goal is their torment, after all, so sending them to a separate location for that seems unnecessary.

Incidentally, I think the Eastern Orthodox might be on to something on this point, given that they believe that heaven and hell are the same location, and therefore it's one's disposition toward God that determines whether it'll be heaven or hell for them.

Scripture teaches about hell, not complete annihilation.

As we can see from this thread alone, not all Christians agree with that. Personally, I find both ECT and annihilation distasteful when placed alongside (my perception of) God’s character.

If everyone was going to be completely obliterated after death, we might as well just live exactly as we want to. Christian, atheist, humanist, JW, Mormon, good person, wicked terrorist; who cares, if once you die you are obliterated and completely forgotten?

An Annihilationist would be better able to answer that question. I don’t have an answer for that, given that I don’t believe in it.

Interestingly enough, however, it's a question that has been raised in objection to all 3 post-mortem scenarios: Annihilation, ECT, and universal salvation.


-

 

[Strong in Him]

I agree. However, I'm not talking about about being pre-programmed, but rather something slightly different, yet just as bad, imo:
-

Ok, sorry.

God is creating them in spite of His already knowing—with His omniscient ability to see the end from the beginning—that they will never make it. I’m questioning the justice in that.
-

If heaven was something that a person achieved by their own efforts, and he knew in advance that some just wouldn't be good/hardworking enough; maybe.
But none of us deserve heaven.
When Adam disobeyed God, mankind's relationship with God was broken and we have never, and will never, be able to do anything to mend it. Years ago, God gave the sacrificial system; if people sacrificed their valuable animals, their blood would atone for their sins. The problems were that a) people sinned more often than they could sacrifice animals, and b) people didn't always follow God and so didn't obey this command.
So God sent Jesus to die for us. Jesus is the only way to the Father, John 14:6, and the only way we can be saved, Acts 4:12. It is only through Jesus that we can be reconciled to God, Romans 5:12, 2 Corinthians 5:20. So it's not a matter of "making it" to heaven; it's a question of accepting Jesus, choosing to follow him, accept his teachings and sacrifice on the cross.

Yes, God creates people who he knows, even at the point of birth, will reject him. But would it be just of him to say, "I will only let live people who are going to believe in me"? If it were possible for an unfertilised egg to say to God, "why did I have no chance of life?" and God were to say, "because I knew that the person you became wouldn't have believed in me, so it was better to deny you a chance at all,", how would that be either just or loving?
If that were the case, why couldn't he have created Adam without the ability to choose, and therefore sin by making the wrong choice?

Since God is omnipresent, I don’t believe one can be separated from Him.-

Not geographically; sin separates us from God spiritually.
A Christian and a non Christian could both be in God's presence. The difference is that the Christian would know God, know that their sins were forgiven, know, and be thankful for, what God had done for them; the non Christian would know beyond any doubt that God was real and may have been able to forgive their sins, if they'd believed and asked him too. For a non believing/atheist, unforgiven Christian to be permanently in God's presence, knowing that he would never have any forgiveness for his sins, would be, I believe, hell.

Here's the thing, though: If it would be hell anyway for them to be in God’s presence in heaven, why not just let them be in heaven?

It wouldn't be heaven for them.
Jesus said that his Father's house had many mansions. If a non believer was in a place filled with mansions, and all those mansions were full of people who praised, worshipped, spoke about, served and honoured God constantly, not to mention cherubim and seraphim who worship God 24/7 - would that unbeliever say that they were in heaven?

Incidentally, I think the Eastern Orthodox might be on to something on this point, given that they believe that heaven and hell are the same location, and therefore it's one's disposition toward God that determines whether it'll be heaven or hell for them.
-

I believe that could be the case.
I formed this opinion several years ago, with no idea whether anyone else believed it. I may still be wrong, but I could/can find no other answer to the question, "If hell is supposed to be somewhere God isn't and he is everywhere; how can hell exist?"

As we can see from this thread alone, not all Christians agree with that. Personally, I find both ECT and annihilation distasteful when placed alongside (my perception of) God’s character.
-

Same.
God is love. I cannot conceive of God creating someone with the intention of sending them to an eternal place of torment for not believing in him, when he didn't give them that choice in the first place. That's not love. Any human father who did something like that would be locked up, not nominated for Father of the year.
So how could our perfect heavenly Father behave that way?