Is it better to never have been born then to live with the possibility of going to hell?

Polar Bear Quest

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God told them not to live among them, and in another place he said when you go to war and they surrender to you if their not the ones living near you, you could make a treaty, but if they didn't surrender, put the men to death, I don't remember what he said to do to the women and children.
What God had them do, is what he wanted done.
This wasn't raids the bible said God sent David on. David was running from Saul at this point and living amongst the Philistines. He and his group of 600 men would go raid random villages (I'm not sure if the Gerushites or whatever their names were, were on the kill list or not) and slaughter everyone to ensure they did not go and tell on David's raiding party.
 
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Polar Bear Quest

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Only problem with that kind of thinking son is that one would've never had an opportunity to go to heaven either :).
You're missing the point though. Most people who have ever lived have gone to hell. Even of those saved there is not a consensus of who's going to heaven. There is the faith alone crowd and the "faith without works is dead" crowd.Then there are Catholics and Mormons, some think they'll get into heaven others say no. Some believe in Baptism and repentance, others thinks they're both works, and even others think one is a work and the other is required for salvation.

So even amongst the body of Christ we are not sure how many are going to hell or heaven.
 
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Polar Bear Quest

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nope because I would be suffering from satans attacks on me. maybe I would get used to it eventually. torturers usually kill their victim after their victim starts to take pleasure in the tortures. either that or the victim sees the tormentor as their friend or master.
Hell is an eternal torment, it would fail to be so if people got used to it. Also, Satan is going to be tortured alongside with your, he's not going to be torturing you. If you can get used to the torture that means Satan would eventually as well and defeat the entire purpose of hell.
 
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Polar Bear Quest

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You indicate that you are non-denom. I'm guessing that is a Christian designation. You can erase all your misinterpretations, misapplications, doubts, fears, disgust, in short, every question you could ever ask, with one confession.

Ready?

Romans 10:8-13, Romans 8:1, Ephesians 2:8-9, John 5:24, John 3:16-17.

You're home free!!!
This is one point I don't think most Christians get. There isn't just one camp in Christianity. Some Christians believe salvation by faith alone. Others believe salvation requires faith and works. One side says doing works negates your salvation, while the other says without works you cannot be saved.

There is also the problem with Mormons and Catholics. Some think they are saved, others say no. To add to that there's the question about baptism and repentance. Some think both are required, some say neither, others say only one is required. There are a lot of people wrong and those people may be damned for hell depending on who's right.

So upon closer examination even most Christians don't know for sure if they'll be saved, and we know all the atheist and those of other religions won't be saved, so is it better to have never been born then to live with the possibility of going to hell?
 
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Polar Bear Quest

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Edited (fixed typos and added a few more things)
A couple of things:

1) We're saved by grace, not faith (it's through faith, slight difference). Eph 2:8-10
2) However, we're justified by faith (two types).
a) We're justified before God, and that's through our faith in Jesus Christ which is the first type.
b) We're also justified by works (see James) but that justification is before men. How is that? It's our works which prove (or demonstrate) our faith before the secular world. Otherwise how will they know that we are truly God's children unless they see us do what are "truly" Christian works which will glorify God? As James so succinctly puts it, "show me your faith without your works and I'll show you my faith by my works (KJV)".
3) As we are told, "there is none righteous, not one" who is without Christ. We are made righteous by the blood of Jesus, not by our own works or deeds, but by "the righteousness of Christ", The Righteous One.
4) I don't believe that anyone is really "predestined for hell". That's a lie of the devil to make us lose hope (and thereby our faith).
5) "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". Heb 11:1
We lose hope, the devil has us so don't be deceived by him. It is God's desire that all men would be saved.
1 Timothy 2:1-8 (KJV) 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.


As for the original question, that's a difficult one to answer (perhaps why all these other questions have been popping up). All I can say is, if what I just stated is true, then it becomes a matter of faith. If we truly believe (and belief includes trust), do we trust God will do what's righteous, and just and even if it's something beyond our comprehension, are we willing to trust that all will be well for us?

We hear some much about how so "cruel" he was in the New Testament and how he allows this wicked world to exist under these circumstances but can we really comprehend all? He gives us so much information in the Bible (for those of us who read it) but there's much I'm sure we're lacking.

I do know when those in the Old Testament were destroyed by the Jews, they were heathen nations who were against God, and were attempting to destroy the Jews who were His chosen people. Those same people were sacrificing their own children to Molech on molten altars and practicing many Satanic rituals. In those instances God chose to use His people to perform the task and in others (Sodom & Gomorrah for example) he chose to destroy them Himself (with fire and brimstone).

Perhaps they'd be wise enough to figure it out and turn to the One True God, Jehovah and stop their persecution of the Jews (the same way he shows the rest of the world today when they attach Christians and Jews). It's no accident that America has come to such prominence in the world although that is dwindling as America moves further and further away from God.

Personally, I'd think twice about trying to mistreat Christians if I were of some other religion or group of people (those who consider Christians and Jews to be infidels or bastards).

And I can't believe how so many put down David, who although he committed two horrendous acts, was a brave and great man and who paid the price for what he did:
1) had his first child die during childbirth
2) had one of his sons rape his half-sister
3) had his favorite son (Absalom) turn against him and start a rebellion in his kingdom and
4) had that same son (whom he loved in spite of his rebellion) killed in battle.

David lived a life of misery after he committed that egregious act with Bathsheba and suffered for it the rest of his entire life. I think that death would have probably been less painful for him just as his sin was so painful for God, he being the only man in the Bible being called "a man after God's own heart".

There's no doubt that God loved David dearly (and that loved God dearly as well which can be evidenced by his writing most of the psalms, after his sin and all the punishment he took from God) but God is a righteous God, He is Holy, He is just and He must Judge (judgement is probably God's strangest work).

In the case where God used the Jews to perform the task of judgement I believe it was for the purpose to demonstrate His power through them in hope of showing them that the Jews were His people and that they should leave them alone.

The added benefit might be that they would recognize that the Jewish God was their creator and would instead turn from their false gods and start to follow Him instead of those false gods they were religiously following which were all satanic in nature.
Thanks for the response. Great amount of detail in that post. God bless.
 
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Polar Bear Quest

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Yes, if hell is an eternal state (as opposed to a temporary state, as some believe) then it would be better if you were never born. In fact Christians who believe in a state of eternal damnation probably shouldnt have children. Theres just too too much of a risk that one or more of your children could end up in hell.
I had the exact same thoughts. But the bible does say "be fruitful and multiply." Also, people are programmed to naturally want children and don't often enough think of preparing for their children's future on Earth, let alone the potential of their eternal damnation. I appreciate your honesty btw.
 
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mukk_in

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You're missing the point though. Most people who have ever lived have gone to hell. Even of those saved there is not a consensus of who's going to heaven. There is the faith alone crowd and the "faith without works is dead" crowd.Then there are Catholics and Mormons, some think they'll get into heaven others say no. Some believe in Baptism and repentance, others thinks they're both works, and even others think one is a work and the other is required for salvation.

So even amongst the body of Christ we are not sure how many are going to hell or heaven.
Don't think so my friend. Most of us in the Holy Spirit are absolutely certain we're going to heaven and have His assurance as well. God bless :).
 
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DarkSoul999

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You're missing the point though. Most people who have ever lived have gone to hell. Even of those saved there is not a consensus of who's going to heaven. There is the faith alone crowd and the "faith without works is dead" crowd.Then there are Catholics and Mormons, some think they'll get into heaven others say no. Some believe in Baptism and repentance, others thinks they're both works, and even others think one is a work and the other is required for salvation.

So even amongst the body of Christ we are not sure how many are going to hell or heaven.

which makes all of life hopeless and worthless. If God can't give us a clear answer then what is this other than a cruel cosmic game?
 
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Polar Bear Quest

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Better to have been born with the possibility of going to Heaven.

We know the path to heaven is narrow and there are few who find it. But when you consider the billions of people who have lived since creation, the few who find it make up “a great multitude, which no man can number”.

I believe God is merciful and loving to all his creations but he is also just. He warned the human race (Adam) what would happen if out of their perfect free will they chose to sin. As a just God the sentence of death (eternal & physical) was passed to all living creatures on this planet when Adam sinned. Now God could have ended Adam and Eve both spiritually and physically on that day but out of His mercy and love he allowed them to physically live in and enjoy His creation albeit they were dead spiritually; being cast out of the garden and from God’s presence. The world was also sin cursed so we also have to deal with tragedy and sorrow.

We see God’s justice and mercy again in Deut 25:2-3 where He says the number of lashes must fit the crime. He also limits the max to 40. Such a God would not torment a person for eternity.

As for eternal fire God gave us the example of Sodom & Gomorrha in Jude 1:7 saying how they would suffer the “vengeance of eternal fire” The cities were indeed destroyed by fire but it is not burning today. Eternal fire is all consuming meaning they would die and never live again. They were annihilated and totally forgotten as if they never existed. Which is tragic because they (we) had the promise of eternal life at creation.


So, isn’t it better to live with the possibility that God wrote your name in the Lambs Book of Life before the foundation of the world and there is a chance you may get into heaven rather than to never have existed at all? In the case of the unsaved, they got to live and enjoy life and maybe have a loving family and amazing experiences while dealing with troubles of the world we all have to experience. The difference is that the saved live with Christ for eternity and at the unsaved cease to exist and are forgotten.

So I believe it is better to have been born.

Regarding David, he was indeed saved but he also had a sinned cursed physical body that lusted after sin (Paul describes this battle between the soul and body in Romans 7). One of the many things we learn from David’s life is that once God saves an individual that person has received eternal life and will not loose his salvation. It is not conditional. But that person may be chastised even more than an unsaved person in this life. In Psalm 51 we see how terrible David felt when he sinned against God. If we are saved this is how we should react to our sin.
Here's where we differ. The bible is clear imo and very clear on the existence of hell and it being eternal.

Revelations 20
13And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelations 14

Also, hell is what this entire discussion hinges on because if those who do not make it into heaven just die then no biggie really, they came from nonexistence and returned back to it. Eternal damnation and torment is the issue. And because Hell is clearly biblical, most people go there, would you rather never be born with that knowledge or would you still want existence with the possibility of hell?
 
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Polar Bear Quest

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I found a video that I think explains a good deal of your questions

What Made It Okay for God to Kill Women and Children In the Old Testament? | Desiring God



I would like to go on to say that I think that it would certainly be "better" in the eyes of a flawed human being to have never lived, rather than suffer the torment of hell as your eternity. But, I also do not see how that lack of existence glorifies God in any way. And I can see with my own eyes how the death of my wife has eventually led to Glorifying the Almighty Yeshua Jesus Christ in my own life and the lives around me. I also imagine that had David not listened to everything The Lord told Him to do, the sin of Jericho would have multiplied into a world work of abomination far too early.
Thanks for the response. One thing I want to point out is that I was not condemning David, the point of mentioning David (as I went on to say) was to point out we cannot help where we're born, to whom, and in what time period. We could be born Gerushite (those David killed) or in modern times with little to no major worries.

If we're born to Christians that's a huge advantage as opposed to Eskimo's or Hindu's. We don't know how long we're going to live or have no control of what talents we're going to have.

With that in mind and knowing that not even Christians can agree on what path to take to salvation, would you rather have never lived then live with the risk of going to hell? Hell is forever. Most people are going to Hell after all the path is "narrow" and "few find it." Isn't life a HUGE risk.
 
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Polar Bear Quest

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which makes all of life hopeless and worthless. If God can't give us a clear answer then what is this other than a cruel cosmic game?
I don't think life is hopeless or worthless I just don't know all the answers, so that's why I'm asking. These are questions that I'm surprised more Christians don't think about or ask about. I used to be an atheist myself until I discovered flat Earth, and then found God.
 
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DarkSoul999

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which makes all of life hopeless and worthless
I don't think life is hopeless or worthless I just don't know all the answers, so that's why I'm asking. These are questions that I'm surprised more Christians don't think about or ask about. I used to be an atheist myself until I discovered flat Earth, and then found God.

uhhhh you discovered Flat Earth? I just got finished talking to a very nasty 9/11 Truther atheist on Facebook and that alone made me question if God created this stupid place....
 
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SkyWriting

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I agree that all men know on some level there is a God a creator but they do not know which one instinctively I'd argue.

I do disagree with your interpretation of John 15. Jesus was talking about the Jews not the modern people of today, he was saying now they have no excuse because he's literally done miracles in their faces.

John 15:24-25 proves this.



Jesus specifically says it was to fulfill what was written in "their law." This shows he was talking specifically about the Jews. If the Jews didn't reject Jesus we wouldn't have an opportunity to come in.


Hmmm. When I quote that passage, I am focusing on
" If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin."

This says specifically that "sin" is dependant upon one hearing God, and rejecting His message.
But you don't seem to be challenging that. I don't see how being a Jew is relevant.
 
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SkyWriting

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My intention wasn't to slander anyone, especially someone who died thousands of years ago it was only to make a point, and use that point to pose a question, that question being, is it better to live with the possibility of going to hell or to have never lived at all. Do you have an opinion?

Much better to have the choice, than not.
 
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SkyWriting

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uhhhh you discovered Flat Earth? I just got finished talking to a very nasty 9/11 Truther atheist on Facebook and that alone made me question if God created this stupid place....

Yes, God created this stupid place. Any more questions?
 
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Rajni

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Don't think so my friend. Most of us in the Holy Spirit are absolutely certain we're going to heaven and have His assurance as well. God bless :).
While that sounds good on the surface, it also lacks a certain empathy for those one believes are, essentially, out of luck.

(Note that I don’t think anyone is ‘out of luck’ given that I believe God has everyone’s back in the soteriological department; my above statement is in reference to the worldview that distinguishes between ‘saved’ and ‘unsaved’ folks.)

which makes all of life hopeless and worthless. If God can't give us a clear answer then what is this other than a cruel cosmic game?
I have an answer to that, but it’s beyond the scope of what is allowed to be expressed in this sub-forum.
 
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mukk_in

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While that sounds good on the surface, it also lacks a certain empathy for those one believes are, essentially, out of luck.

(Note that I don’t think anyone is ‘out of luck’ given that I believe God has everyone’s back in the soteriological department; my above statement is in reference to the worldview that distinguishes between ‘saved’ and ‘unsaved’ folks.)

I have an answer to that, but it’s beyond the scope of what is allowed to be expressed in this sub-forum.
The world view doesn't matter my friend. God knows His people. There is a difference between those that are confused, angry and anxious, and those that are enemies of God. People may not be sure they're saved, but God knows them and they're indeed saved. Peace in Christ :).
 
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2tim_215

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One thin I've heard about hell from more than one preacher is that hell is actually "eternal separation" from God which stands to reason as it is designed for those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ. God is so merciful I suppose that he wouldn't do the injustice of bringing someone to heaven that does not want to be with Him. And how does He do this. He says that the spirit for the person goes back to Him. It's a man''s soul that gets cast into hell, his spirit returns to God from whence it came (Eccles 12:7)..
 
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Rajni

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One thin I've heard about hell from more than one preacher is that hell is actually "eternal separation" from God which stands to reason as it is designed for those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ. God is so merciful I suppose that he wouldn't do the injustice of bringing someone to heaven that does not want to be with Him. And how does He do this. He says that the spirit for the person goes back to Him. It's a man''s soul that gets cast into hell, his spirit returns to God from whence it came (Eccles 12:7)..
Yes, I’ve read about there being a distinction between soul and spirit, though I always end up conflating the two anyway. ツ

That said, I can see where the soul might be a person’s egoic identity, which ultimately gets burned up (metaphorically speaking). Painful yet liberating for the spirit, given what a burden the egoic mind can be.

As for the concept of separation from God, I can’t wrap my head around that given that I believe God is omnipresent – there is nowhere that He is not. So there would be no escape from His presence, imo.

In the end, though, if not believing in/loving God is a punishable offense, I don’t see why He would need a separate location where people could be spared the torment of His presence, if torment is supposed to be the goal in any case.

In fact, if He’s going to be that considerate of the nonbeliever’s comfort-zone, He could just as easily heal their spiritual blindness so that they're free to love Him back, rendering His presence a joy to them rather than torment. Banishing them for eternity with their blindness unhealed seems beneath Him, somehow.

One concept that I find intriguing is that of the Eastern Orthodox church, which believes that both heaven and hell are the same place – God’s presence – and that for those who love Him, it’s bliss, while for those who don’t, it’s blech (though I don’t think the EO call it “blech” •‿•)


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