Is it a Sin to Follow the Law?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Check out 1 Timothy 1:8

why ?
Post what you think it changes .

 

[TheGentileSkeptic]

Jesus died to pay the penalty for our sins in our place, so while we should follow God's Law, we should not enforce a penalty that has already been paid.

So in other words, you think that Christian leaders should disregard the Law God gave to His people?

So what laws should be used, and what principles are used to make up those rules? Are they godly, or is God against godly laws?

I asked this elsewhere - Uganda was considering using Biblical punishments for certain crimes a few years ago. One of those punishments was executing people for homosexual acts. This made headlines around the world, and for the non-religious groups (especially for atheists, agnostics and other secular individuals) this was horrid.

So, for the Christian leaders of Uganda, do you feel that they are sinning by obeying God's commandments and enforcing them as He instructed for them to enforce them?

 

[TheGentileSkeptic]

I'm going to bow out here. Lots of things to read, and lots of things to meditate on Everyone brings up good points, and so I just need time to soak it all in, and pray for wisdom.

God Bless.

It's also a very difficult topic. I've been researching this in concept for a little while now. Christians are in a very difficult position.

On the one hand, they want to obey God in everything. On the other hand, they have Westernized secular values that they grew up with that conflict strongly with the morals found in a book written thousands of years ago by superstitious Middle Easterners.

It's like one of those catch 22 positions where if you admit that God's laws should be followed, then you're looked at by Western society as a fanatic, but if you turn around and comply with secular standards of morality, you've abandoned God just for the sake of pleasing people.

I think this issue needs to be resolved in a clear-cut way. Or else Christianity would seem very illogical to a critic.

 

[TheGentileSkeptic]

8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the gospel concerning the glory of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

"Is it a Sin to Follow the Law? "

Well, what's the alternative ?
Is it a sin to have a false god ?
Is it a sin to practice idolatry ?
Is it a sin to take YHWH'S NAME in vain ?
Is it a sin to defile what YHWH says is holy ?
Is it a sin to shame and to dishonor one's parents ?
Is it a sin to steal ?
Is it a sin to bear false witness ?
Is it a sin to commit adultery ?
Is it a sin to lust after someone else's wife or other of their possessions ?

 

[Soyeong]

So in other words, you think that Christian leaders should disregard the Law God gave to His people?

So what laws should be used, and what principles are used to make up those rules? Are they godly, or is God against godly laws?

I asked this elsewhere - Uganda was considering using Biblical punishments for certain crimes a few years ago. One of those punishments was executing people for homosexual acts. This made headlines around the world, and for the non-religious groups (especially for atheists, agnostics and other secular individuals) this was horrid.

So, for the Christian leaders of Uganda, do you feel that they are sinning by obeying God's commandments and enforcing them as He instructed for them to enforce them?

Even when the Law was originally given to Moses, there was not a single person who was required to obey every single law, and though Jesus obeyed the Law perfectly, not even he was able to obey the laws in regard to a woman's period or to giving birth. Some laws were given to the King, High priest, priests, judges, men, women, children, people living in the land, and strangers living among, and to everyone. Laws also had other conditions under which they apply, such as the Sabbath only applying when it is the 7th day. We also see this in modern laws, such as parking laws that only apply during certain hours or speeding laws that don't apply to cops when they have their siren going. So there is a difference between saying that a law should be disregarded and saying that a law should not be enforced under certain conditions, such as when it has already been enforced.

I do not believe that the leaders of Uganda are acting according to what God's Law requires when they execute gay people, but they nevertheless have the authority to make it a capital crime. Furthermore, the Jews do not have a history of giving the death penalty whenever the Bible prescribed it, but rather they often gave a fine instead. The harshness of the penalty was to show the seriousness of sin, but the lighter penalty was to show the mercy of God. As Jesus said in Matthew 23:23, justice, mercy, and faith are weightier matters of the Law, so if those characteristics are not present in how we enforce the Law, then we are not doing it correctly.

 

[TheGentileSkeptic]

So based on my own research and the responses in this thread, it seems that Christianity's stance is "If you obey the Law, then you are sinning against God!"

While I find that illogical and on the verge of parody, I think that this inconsistency between what the Bible says and what the Christians say should serve as a huge red flag for would-be Christians and present-day Christians not fully satisfied with what modern secular churches are teaching.

Thanks everyone for your input!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So based on my own research and the responses in this thread, it seems that Christianity's stance is "If you obey the Law, then you are sinning against God!"

That is the stance of counterfeit Christianity.... not true Christianity.
True Christians have a new heart, a renewed mind, and a living spirit in union with Jesus and always seek to perfectly DO YHWH'S WORD,
because those who only hear YHWH'S WORD, and do not DO IT, are not justified.

 

[Traveling teacher]

So in other words, you think that Christian leaders should disregard the Law God gave to His people?

So what laws should be used, and what principles are used to make up those rules? Are they godly, or is God against godly laws?

I asked this elsewhere - Uganda was considering using Biblical punishments for certain crimes a few years ago. One of those punishments was executing people for homosexual acts. This made headlines around the world, and for the non-religious groups (especially for atheists, agnostics and other secular individuals) this was horrid.

So, for the Christian leaders of Uganda, do you feel that they are sinning by obeying God's commandments and enforcing them as He instructed for them to enforce them?

I have been to many countries in Africa on mission trips, neighbors to uganda...kenya..ethiopia.....

If Uganda wqnts to execute homosexuals....no its not a sin

But it has to be through the government and not vigilante individuals....

If other countries including America want to execute anyone who rapes chidren....no its not a sin
And I fully support execution for child rape

Uganda told obama to take his homosexual agenda and leave their country....I fully suport Uganda in this decision

PUtin told obama to take his homosexual agenda and leave his country.....i fully support Russia in this decision

Homosexuality and inappropriate behavior with animals are abominations to God
If any country today wants to execute these sins under the laws of their country....I believe it is acording to the righteous law of God......

but there needs to be provisions for youth maybe ages. 18-20 to have some kind of restitution....
Anyone under 18 is rape.........

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Jesus told us in matt 22:37-40, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’c]">[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’d]">[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

And Paul summed this all up perfectly.

Romans 13:8-10, Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not covet,' and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' Love does no harm to its neighbor.

Paul is speaking to depraved, idol worshipping criminals, not mature Christians; taking the position of the "schoolmaster" referred to elsewhere, and reviewing the value of the 'Law'. They weren't ready for the strong meat of the new covenant. Paul often chided the church for their lack of understanding of the deeper things of God.

 

[SkyWriting]

Hi, I'm curious as to what the Christian position is when it comes to Jewish Law.I know most Christians don't want to follow it, but if you did follow it, would it be a sin?

.

 

[SkyWriting]

Hi, I'm curious as to what the Christian position is when it comes to Jewish Law.I know most Christians don't want to follow it, but if you did follow it, would it be a sin?

Only you choose what sin is.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do
and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Only you choose what sin is.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do
and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Many retreat to the Law when they don't want to do what the law actually intends.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Speed limits are not for people who would normally drive at safe speeds even if there were no speed limits, but rather they are needed for people who would otherwise drive at unsafe speeds. In the same way, the Law is not needed for a righteous person because they are already doing what the Law requires, but rather the Law is needed to correct those who are not doing what is righteous. So if someone thinks that obeying the Law is not for them, then they are showing themselves to be precisely someone whom the Law is for.

Great example. The speeding laws are always there if one backslides and speeds. It's like a computer program that's out of sight but always running in the background that will pop onto the screen if you trigger it somehow.

Keeping the law and doing the law are polar opposites, and that's where understanding is lacking. Generosity is the polar opposite from stealing, but is the actual fulfillment of that commandment and is the antithesis of it.

Imagine someone being called "great" in heaven for keeping their hands in their own pockets, or keeping them off their neighbors wife. How silly.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Only you choose what sin is.

James 4:17
So whoever knows the right thing to do
and fails to do it, for him it is sin.

Fortunately we will have many more opportunities to do the right thing so even though we often fail we can redeem ourselves.

 

[Soyeong]

Many retreat to the Law when they don't want to do what the law actually intends.

What do you think the Law actually intends?

Great example. The speeding laws are always there if one backslides and speeds. It's like a computer program that's out of sight but always running in the background that will pop onto the screen if you trigger it somehow.

Thanks.

Keeping the law and doing the law are polar opposites, and that's where understanding is lacking. Generosity is the polar opposite from stealing, but is the actual fulfillment of that commandment and is the antithesis of it.

Imagine someone being called "great" in heaven for keeping their hands in their own pockets, or keeping them off their neighbors wife. How silly.

We can not be doers of the Law without being keepers of the Law and we can't be keepers of the Law without it involving being a doer of the Law, so I would not say that they are polar opposites. Furthermore, commands to not do something can be understood as commands to do the reverse, such as the command not to steal can be understood as the command to be generous, and the command to not commit adultery can be understood as the command to have fidelity towards our spouses or to respect the institution of marriage regardless of whether or not we are married.

 

[ivanpetrov]

Romans 8:7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

We can not be doers of the Law without being keepers of the Law and we can't be keepers of the Law without it involving being a doer of the Law, so I would not say that they are polar opposites. Furthermore, commands to not do something can be understood as commands to do the reverse, such as the command not to steal can be understood as the command to be generous, and the command to not commit adultery can be understood as the command to have fidelity towards our spouses or to respect the institution of marriage regardless of whether or not we are married.

This is exactly what the law intends, but it requires a few hundred years of civilizing the people before they can understand it that way. Israel was a nation of 'ignorant savages' no better than those around them when God took control of them and the law was written. The idea that the law against stealing actually means to be generous never entered their minds. The 'antithesis', of being generous, implies that stealing never enters their minds. It's the element of theft, lying, committing adultery, etc. never entering one's mind that reveals the difference between the law and the true intent of the law. If stealing is what is on one's mind they are under the law, if not, they are not.

What may seem like a fine point is really a very wide chasm, a difference that gets even greater with time.

 

[jayem]

Homosexuality and inappropriate behavior with animals are abominations to God
If any country today wants to execute these sins under the laws of their country....I believe it is acording to the righteous law of God......

Just sayin':

As you should know, according to Biblical law, a death sentence can only be imposed on the testimony of 2 or 3 eyewitnesses. Who are to be the first to cast the stones. And not just homosexuality and inappropriate behavior with animals, but adultery, and worshipping other gods, and a host of others are also capital crimes. If a government decides to follow OT law, then it shouldn't pick and choose, but should follow the law exactly. Don't you think?

2“If there is found in your midst, in any of your towns, which the LORD your God is giving you, a man or a woman who does what is evil in the sight of the LORD your God, by transgressing His covenant, 3and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the heavenly host, which I have not commanded, 4and if it is told you and you have heard of it, then you shall inquire thoroughly. Behold, if it is true and the thing certain that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, 5then you shall bring out that man or that woman who has done this evil deed to your gates, that is, the man or the woman, and you shall stone them to death. 6“On the evidence of two witnesses or three witnesses, he who is to die shall be put to death; he shall not be put to death on the evidence of one witness. 7“The hand of the witnesses shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

Deut. 17:2-7 (NASB)

 

[Traveling teacher]

i am not saying individuals...
i am talking about national governments....

the goverents are apointed by God.....

most gov. have death penalty for
murder and spying...selliinjg nuke info.

many nations have death penalty for rape and child rape

other nations have the death penalty for homosexuality and inappropriate behavior with animals.....

if thats what that gov wants to do....
america should deal with its own problems
of violence drugs and homosexuality...
and leave these countries alone