IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

[RickReads]

It is being spoken in the Subjunctive mood.
Mood-Subjunctive

The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and
potentiality. The action described may or may not occur,
depending upon circumstances.

Whether we see or believe it...
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

That`s just isn`t a sound explaination. The Bible says God is not the author of confusion.

 

[RickReads]

Really? Are you saying that we are still in the old covenant now in your view Rick? How do you think John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; Hebrews 8:11-12 and 1 John 2:27; John 1:29; 36 and 1 John 1:9; John 3:16 all connect with Jeremiah 31:34?

Cobbling together an eclectic set of individual verses is probably the most common way bad doctrine is created. I glanced at your verses and it appears you are trying to say an unfulfilled verse is fulfilled because you have a set of verses that are true. I got a passage for you and I only need one. Not a verse, a passage.

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Jeremiah 31:34 is talking about conditions that will exist in the dispensation of the fulness of times.
This is not that time period. What believers have right now is the Holy Spirit as an earnest payment towards our future redemption.

We are saved right now because the price has been paid and to prove it we have been given the Holy Spirit.

But sometimes when you buy something you have to wait a while for the order to be put together.
When the "fullness" is reached He will return for us.

We are in the New Covenant yes. The rest of the world isn`t. That is the difference.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Really? Are you saying that we are still in the old covenant now in your view Rick? How do you think John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; Hebrews 8:11-12 and 1 John 2:27; John 1:29; 36 and 1 John 1:9; John 3:16 all connect with Jeremiah 31:34?

Hi look at the context of chapter 30 and 31. He is not saying Jesus did not bring in the new covenant he is saying the nation of Israel one day will be joined to it. In Chapter 30 it is the day of Jacob's Trouble.

This passage is a latter day passage and talks about the city Jerusalem being built on its own mound at the time David is raised up.

‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

This passage is connected to chapter 31 as it opens with
1 “At the same time,” says the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”
2 Thus says the LORD:
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when I went to give him rest.”
3 The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.
4 Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt,
O virgin of Israel!

Now the verses after the promise of the new covenant God says Israel will not cease to be nation in God's eyes not will He cast of the seed of Israel for all they have done.

The chapter ends with the view of Jacob's trouble

38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

You see this is the time when Israel is saved and is brought into the new covenant and the prophecies in LUKE 1 are fulfilled. At the end of the tribulation those bodies will be there and the city Jerusalem will need rebuilding and David indeed will be raised up.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Really? Are you saying that we are still in the old covenant now in your view Rick? How do you think John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; Hebrews 8:11-12 and 1 John 2:27; John 1:29; 36 and 1 John 1:9; John 3:16 all connect with Jeremiah 31:34?

Your response here...

Cobbling together an eclectic set of individual verses is probably the most common way bad doctrine is created. I glanced at your verses and it appears you are trying to say an unfulfilled verse is fulfilled because you have a set of verses that are true. I got a passage for you and I only need one. Not a verse, a passage.

10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Jeremiah 31:34 is talking about conditions that will exist in the dispensation of the fulness of times.
This is not that time period. What believers have right now is the Holy Spirit as an earnest payment towards our future redemption.

We are saved right now because the price has been paid and to prove it we have been given the Holy Spirit.

But sometimes when you buy something you have to wait a while for the order to be put together.
When the "fullness" is reached He will return for us.

We are in the New Covenant yes. The rest of the world isn`t. That is the difference.

Your contradicting yourself here Rick and only half answered the question that was asked of you. I asked you firstly if you think we are still in the old covenant which you said no we are in the new covenant now for which I thank you. The second part of the question I asked you was how do you think John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; Hebrews 8:11-12 and 1 John 2:27; John 1:29; 36 and 1 John 1:9; John 3:16 all connect with Jeremiah 31:34? The bible is in agreement to itself and not in contradiction right? All the scriptures provided above are in regards to God being our guide and teacher that connect to the subject matter of Hebrews 8:11 and Jeremiah 31:34 so are directly relevant to our discussion as they show as you agree we are in the new covenant and the scriptures provided are a part of God's new covenant promise to be our guide and teacher.

You agree that we are in the new covenant now which I agree which is also what Hebrews 7 to Hebrews 10 confirms. In fact Hebrews 8:10-12 is a scripture quote taken directly from Jeremiah 31:31-34. You claim here however that Hebrews 8:11-12 from Jeremiah 31:34 that says "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." has not happened yet?

Jeremiah 31:31-34 is Gods' new covenant promise so we are either in the new covenant or not in the new covenant. Your claiming in your post we are in the new covenant and not in the new covenant.

You were then provided new covenant scripture from from Jesus and the Apostles showing that in the new covenant God is to be our guide and teacher through His Spirit here....

Hebrews 8:11-12 (from Jeremiah 31:31-34) 11, And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12, For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 7:17 17, If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 8:31-32 31, Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32, And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

1 John 2:27 27, But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

.............

Can you see that the subject matter of all the scriptures provided above show that in the new covenant as part of God's new covenant promise God wants to be our guide and teacher through His Spirit as we seek him and continue in His Word? I would say all the scriptures provided here are directly relevant to Jeremiah 31:34 wouldn't you?

Hope this is helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi look at the context of chapter 30 and 31. He is not saying Jesus did not bring in the new covenant he is saying the nation of Israel one day will be joined to it. In Chapter 30 it is the day of Jacob's Trouble.

This passage is a latter day passage and talks about the city Jerusalem being built on its own mound at the time David is raised up.

‘Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob’s tents,
And have mercy on his dwelling places;
The city shall be built upon its own mound,
And the palace shall remain according to its own plan.
19 Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving
And the voice of those who make merry;
I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish;
I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small.
20 Their children also shall be as before,
And their congregation shall be established before Me;
And I will punish all who oppress them.
21 Their nobles shall be from among them,
And their governor shall come from their midst;
Then I will cause him to draw near,
And he shall approach Me;
For who is this who pledged his heart to approach Me?’ says the LORD.
22 ‘You shall be My people,
And I will be your God.’ ”
23 Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD
Goes forth with fury,
A continuing whirlwind;
It will fall violently on the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD will not return until He has done it,
And until He has performed the intents of His heart.
In the latter days you will consider it.

This passage is connected to chapter 31 as it opens with
1 “At the same time,” says the LORD, “I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people.”
2 Thus says the LORD:
“The people who survived the sword
Found grace in the wilderness—
Israel, when I went to give him rest.”
3 The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.
4 Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt,
O virgin of Israel!

Now the verses after the promise of the new covenant God says Israel will not cease to be nation in God's eyes not will He cast of the seed of Israel for all they have done.

The chapter ends with the view of Jacob's trouble

38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

You see this is the time when Israel is saved and is brought into the new covenant and the prophecies in LUKE 1 are fulfilled. At the end of the tribulation those bodies will be there and the city Jerusalem will need rebuilding and David indeed will be raised up.

see previous post # 584 linked. The question was how do you think John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; Hebrews 8:11-12 and 1 John 2:27; John 1:29; 36 and 1 John 1:9; John 3:16 all connect with Jeremiah 31:34? The word "nation" in the Greek (G1484 ἔθνος ; éthnos | eth'-nos) and Hebrew (H1471 גֹּוי ; gôwy | go'-ee) simply means a massing of people of the same habit. In the new covenant God's Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham, but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith according to the new covenant promise *see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29 and Romans 2:28-29. According to your interpretation of the scriptures we are still in the old covenant which is not biblical.

 

[RickReads]

Your response here...


Your contradicting yourself here Rick and only half answered the question that was asked of you. I asked you firstly if you think we are still in the old covenant which you said no we are in the new covenant now for which I thank you. The second part of the question I asked you was how do you think John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; Hebrews 8:11-12 and 1 John 2:27; John 1:29; 36 and 1 John 1:9; John 3:16 all connect with Jeremiah 31:34? The bible is in agreement to itself and not in contradiction right? All the scriptures provided above are in regards to God being our guide and teacher that connect to the subject matter of Hebrews 8:11 and Jeremiah 31:34 so are directly relevant to our discussion as they show as you agree we are in the new covenant and the scriptures provided are a part of God's new covenant promise to be our guide and teacher.

You agree that we are in the new covenant now which I agree which is also what Hebrews 7 to Hebrews 10 confirms. In fact Hebrews 8:10-12 is a scripture quote taken directly from Jeremiah 31:31-34. You claim here however that Hebrews 8:11-12 from Jeremiah 31:34 that says "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." has not happened yet?

Jeremiah 31:31-34 is Gods' new covenant promise so we are either in the new covenant or not in the new covenant. Your claiming in your post we are in the new covenant and not in the new covenant.

You were then provided new covenant scripture from from Jesus and the Apostles showing that in the new covenant God is to be our guide and teacher through His Spirit here....

Hebrews 8:11-12 (from Jeremiah 31:31-34) 11, And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12, For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 7:17 17, If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

John 8:31-32 31, Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32, And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

1 John 2:27 27, But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

.............

Can you see that the subject matter of all the scriptures provided above show that in the new covenant as part of God's new covenant promise God wants to be our guide and teacher through His Spirit as we seek him and continue in His Word? I would say all the scriptures provided here are directly relevant to Jeremiah 31:34 wouldn't you?

Hope this is helpful.

I don`t contradict myself. You are taking Jeremiah 31 out of context and ignoring what you can`t twist into fitting your belief. In order for Jeremiah 31 to be fulfilled everyone in the entire world has to be saved. Everyone in the entire world has to know the Lord. Everyone in the entire world has to be forgiven.

That isn`t going to happen during this dispensation. It won`t happen until Jesus returns to clean this place up.

 

[Guojing]

I don`t contradict myself. You are taking Jeremiah 31 out of context and ignoring what you can`t twist into fitting your belief. In order for Jeremiah 31 to be fulfilled everyone in the entire world has to be saved. Everyone in the entire world has to know the Lord. Everyone in the entire world has to be forgiven.

That isn`t going to happen during this dispensation. It won`t happen until Jesus returns to clean this place up.

Your view is that the Body of Christ has joined Israel and since it is the true Israel of God currently, they are under the New Covenant in terms of salvation. But she will have to wait until natural Israel is redeemed in the future, for the full benefits of the New Covenant to be realized.

His view is that the Body of Christ has replaced Israel, there is no future redemption of natural Israel, the New Covenant is fully in force now.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I don`t contradict myself. You are taking Jeremiah 31 out of context and ignoring what you can`t twist into fitting your belief. In order for Jeremiah 31 to be fulfilled everyone in the entire world has to be saved. Everyone in the entire world has to know the Lord. Everyone in the entire world has to be forgiven. That isn`t going to happen during this dispensation. It won`t happen until Jesus returns to clean this place up.

Sorry but I respectfully disagree. You have been provided the scriptures that disagree with your teachings so there is no need for me to re-post them again as your response was simply to ignore my posts, questions and scriptures that disagree with you while did not addressing anything in my posts to you accept to deny the scriptures posted that disagreed with you. Scripture does not teach anywhere that the entire worlds will be forgiven. That is not biblical. We are in the new covenant now not the old.

 

[RickReads]

Your view is that the Body of Christ has joined Israel and since it is the true Israel of God currently, they are under the New Covenant in terms of salvation. But she will have to wait until natural Israel is redeemed in the future, for the full benefits of the New Covenant to be realized.

If you are going to explain what my views are to me then get it right. Telling me that I believe "the Body of Christ has joined Israel" is a fabrication, fable, and a false accusation. So is this thing, you say I believe the church is waiting for the redemption of Israel? No.

Do you pay any attention at all to the views of others?

Maybe you should start with Paul. You got a lot of work in that area to do and I think the best thing would be if I say what I believe instead of you saying what I believe.

 

[Guojing]

If you are going to explain what my views are to me then get it right. Telling me that I believe "the Body of Christ has joined Israel" is a fabrication, fable, and a false accusation. So is this thing, you say I believe the church is waiting for the redemption of Israel? No.

Do you pay any attention at all to the views of others?

Maybe you should start with Paul. You got a lot of work in that area to do and I think the best thing would be if I say what I believe instead of you saying what I believe.

Didn't we discuss this a few pages ago? IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

The New Covenant is only made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Hebrews 8:8).

So when you believe the Body of Christ is under the New Covenant, how can that happen without the BOC joining with Israel?

 

[RickReads]

Scripture does not teach anywhere that the entire words will be forgiven. That is not biblical.

It`s right there in your Jeremiah verse that you take out of context and it is repeated in the book of Hebrews.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It`s right there in your Jeremiah verse that you take out of context and it is repeated in the book of Hebrews.

Perhaps you believe Paul is taking it out of context as well in Hebrews 8:10-12 and Hebrews 10:15-18 where he is applying it to Christ and his believers under the new covenant application to Christ sacrifice for the sins of the world once for all (Hebrews 10:10)?

 

[RickReads]

Didn't we discuss this a few pages ago? IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

The New Covenant is only made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah (Hebrews 8:8).

So when you believe the Body of Christ is under the New Covenant, how can that happen without the BOC joining with Israel?

Gentiles are children of Abraham, not Jacob. We are grafted in at the Isaac generation. We do not need to be Israelites to be in the New Covenant.

The New Covenant will be applied to the entire world.

 

[Guojing]

Gentiles are children of Abraham, not Jacob. We are grafted in at the Isaac generation. We do not need to be Israelites to be in the New Covenant.

I agree with you that we are the seed of Abraham, but not Jacob.

But you cannot deny that the New Covenant is only made with Israel, as stated in Hebrews 8:8 correct?

So how can we be included in that? When did God tell us gentile believers in the Body of Christ that he is making a New covenant with us, when we were never under the old covenant in the first place?

 

[RickReads]

Perhaps you believe Paul is taking it out of context as well in Hebrews 8:10-12 and Hebrews 10:15-18 where he is applying it to Christ and his believers under the new covenant application to Christ sacrifice for the sins of the world once for all (Hebrews 10:10)?

argumentative, ignored.

 

[Guojing]

The New Covenant will be applied to the entire world.

Scripture for the above claim?

 

[RickReads]

I agree with you that we are the seed of Abraham, but not Jacob.

But you cannot deny that the New Covenant is only made with Israel, as stated in Hebrews 8:8 correct?

So how can we be included in that? When did God tell us gentile believers in the Body of Christ that he is making a New covenant with us, when we were never under the old covenant in the first place?

"That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ Perhaps you believe Paul is taking it out of context as well in Hebrews 8:10-12 and Hebrews 10:15-18 where he is applying it to Christ and his believers under the new covenant application to Christ sacrifice for the sins of the world once for all (Hebrews 10:10)?

Your response...

argumentative, ignored.

Yep we cannot argue with the scriptures and neither should we ignore them. Do you believe Paul was taking Jeremiah 31:31-34 out of context in Hebrews 8:10-12 and Hebrews 10:15-18 when applying it to Christ and his believers under the new covenant application to Christ sacrifice for the sins of the world once for all (Hebrews 10:10)?

 

[RickReads]

Scripture for the above claim?

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

 

[Guojing]

"That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

As I said to you already, that is not referring to the New Covenant. You are trying to insert the NC there.

All of us in the Body of Christ, whether Jews or gentiles, are saved directly by being in that body. Its an act of pure grace God gave us, to provoke Israel to jealousy. (Romans 11:11).

Israel, on the other hand, had to wait until the NC begins for them, before they can receive the same salvation.

Can I say you assume salvation MUST be tied up to the New Covenant? You cannot imagine its possible to receive salvation by being in the Body of Christ without it?