Is homosexuality a sin?

[OllieFranz]

I think this is the subject of the debate, isn't it? Whether acting on that attraction (in the fullest sense of forming a sexually intimate bond with another person) is sin? It could be phrased in different ways, but there is something which may be called an orientation/inclination/tendency which determines matters of attraction, and there is an action (sex) which might follow upon that attraction. One may view the orientation as a simple neutral truth, or one may view it as a "risk factor" for a particular sin; the difference is in how one views the potential behavioral outcomes of the orientation. In my view, the "tendency to be physically and romantically attracted to people of a particular gender" is something which would give rise to temptation, and perhaps sin, although it is not itself sin.

But by that definition, a heterosexual orientation is just as much of a "risk factor" in temptation to sexual sins -- adultery, rape, prostitution, etc. So why is there the need to single out the one and not the other as a danger? If we can concentrate only on the actions and not the orientations, we can then objectively notice that only a few actions (I believe that there is actually only one.) are condemned between two men but not between a man and a woman (or between two women). And we can objectively consider exactly what conditions are placed on them (it) to make them (it) (a) forbidden act(s).

 

[BigBadWlf]

*Absently pondering* Just wondering how many people here would condemn Perez Hilton's comments about the stripper, yet think that Fred Phelp's comments are perfectly reasonable, and an example of free speech?

Phelps was quite popular in the Christian community until he branched out from attacking and protesting the funerals of Gay men and started including the same behavior at the funerals of soldiers killed in Iraq.

 

[AlAyeti]

What makes you all rallying against gays any better than Phelps? Just because he's more vocal about it? You share the same views.

I don't believe God hates homosexuals. I believe like it says in the NT that people can change their sinful inclinations when embracing the Gospel. Phelps has no more support from the Gospels than do gay rights organizations.

I would say that preaching gay marriage is OK is the same as what Phelps says. Just a different form of heresy.

 

[BigBadWlf]

That's the party line. It is to be expected. I guess the massive demonstartions of the anti-gay movement is based only on hearsay? Why do parents crumble in terror when their kids opt in and "come out?" Adults know what is in store for them.

And what exactly is in store?

"Dykes" are not common in gay life?

Stereotypes don’t apply to everyone in a group…Your lesbian stereotype is no more accurate than any racial stereotype I can think of and is as equally offensive

perhaps if you actually met some gays and lesbians you could find that out for yourself

Appearance wise.

You don’t know any gay men do you?

You are self-derfined by your sexuality. That is what the first three letters in the gay rights thing is all about.

Really? I thought it was about equality and freedom from fear

Sticks and stones? From a gay person? A wife is a woman. A husband is a man. Trying to demand to redefine that is a declaration of war on society.

Justifying discrimination because you choose to hate a group of people is an actual declaration of war on our society

I'm just a discriminated against sexual minority. Some day our struggle will be over and we can live out our lives in plain view of those that spitefully condemn us. I mean there are even ex-inappropriate contentography orgs trying to change our sexual orientation.

Your statement reminds me of speeches made by members of the KKK detailing how they are the real victims of hate and discrimination

If you oppose the title of "lesbian" than we are on accodating grounds.

Did you even bother to read her post?

I may be wrong. But the comon gay routine is like an Elton John soundtrack. You here it so often. Just like the talking points you come back with.

No maybe about it you are wrong

Blacks reject the gay slavery comparison. So do I.

Will address this falsehood in a moment

If you are an adult that has been an adult for any length of time, you know how common and typical seduction is.

No man has ever tried to seduce me….and I am reasonably good looking if I do say so myself.

The way it is portrayed certain is indoctrination and recruitment. THAT is why Christians and religion have been kicked out of schools.

That they are people and they do not deserve to be hunted down and murdered because they are different? Well that sure is indoctrinating

Telling kids how islam is incomaptible with Christianity is also education and appropriate. Political corretness is a tool for altering young minds to accept many things. It is a tool well used by Alinsky disciples.

Ohhh nose…next thing you know those darn liberals will trying to teach our kids that black people have souls…Oh wont’ somebody PLEASE think of the children?!?!?!?!

From your perspective. It is like a fish, wondering what all the fuss is about from the land animals don't want to join them 10-fathoms down.

And still you are unable to show a single example of a homosexual trying to “recruit” a hetersexual

The youth in our Church have brought us their concerns that the GSA in their schools openly invites them in to a gay experience. It is simple, how do you know if your not gay if you don't try it?

Or is the “invitation” to come meet their members and get to know them so you can see they are people too?

The MTV culture is just about a carbon copy of Sodom and Gomorrah are referred to in the Bible.

"This is the sin of Sodom; she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in God's eyes." Ezekiel 16:48-49

Should we continue to celebrate single mother households when the research on fatherless homes has proved how destructive that is on children?

So should children of single mothers be rounded up and sent off to death camps…err…I mean happy camps?

Comparing two bad things is just proving the two things as bad. It's like comparing the adulterers in a Church with why people should accept gays.

What about falsely representing same gendered parents…isn’t’ that a bad thing? Or is OK when you do it?



CONTINUED

 

[AlAyeti]

Are you physically incapable of answering a question directly and appropriately?

Like the fifteen or twenty I have answered directly? Why have you chosen to ignore my points, point for point?

Get back to me when you've found a single, solitary example of homosexuals pushing an agenda of recruitment on anyone,

Concerned Women for America - When Silence Would Have Been Golden

Truth At School: Network of parents and others concerned about the promotion of homosexuality in our schools, where information is often provided that is inaccurate and high-risk, and where attempts are being made to stifle free speech by calling it

GSA and GLSEN are doing just that in our PUBLIC schools. And no opposition is allowed to stop them.

. . . or when you've found any support for that wierd idea that Christians anywhere are in danger of being arrested for hate speech for preaching against homosexuality in their own churches.

Interesting tactic. It's already happened. But gay rights groups will not adhere to that position of staying in their private places of opinion either. The get full societal access. While your suggestion is most discriminatory that Christians remain in their Churches and don't say anything about society outside of them. That's segregation is it not?

I do though, find my support in the tens of millions of anti-gay rights organizers nationwide. My Church is gearing up for the onslaught of gay recruitment of our youth in the coming years. This is an issue that is unfortunately unavoidable.

 

[AlAyeti]

I don't know where you deduce that from. Pretty much every gay person and gay rights group I know of is well aware of the difference between sexual orientation and sexual intercourse. And it's sexual orientation that makes one gay, straight, or bi, not sexual intercourse.

David.

Then there is no probloem. Be gay but don't do gay. That sounds very Biblical. That sounds exactly how I and every other sinner are supposed to react to sin. Think it don't do it. OK.

 

[OllieFranz]

Concerned Women for America - When Silence Would Have Been Golden

Truth At School: Network of parents and others concerned about the promotion of homosexuality in our schools, where information is often provided that is inaccurate and high-risk, and where attempts are being made to stifle free speech by calling it

These are your examples of "homosexual recruitment"?

So when you have a moment of silence or a day of prayer to honor friends who were cruelly murdered, are you taking advantage of the opportunity to twist it into a hidden agenda of secretly recruiting people to Bible studies? All the Day of Silence is, is a chance to remember those killed for no reason other than that they were different. One has to wonder if those people opposing it are doing it because they feel that the victims of these horrible crimes "got what they deserved," and would prefer that no one is concerned about the murderers running around looking for their next victim.

 

[BigBadWlf]

CONTINUED

They are mourning for the loss of their husband and family. We should support that loss by holding it as sacred.

But they are single mothers…so why are you celebrating single mother households when the research on fatherless homes has proved how destructive that is on children?

Pastor in canada had to pay damages to two gay guys. Pastor in Sweden arrested and convicted for preaching against gay sex and a photographer in New Mexico was sued and lost by a couple of lesbians.This photographer refused to photograpgh a gay wedding. The lesbians did not tolerate that.

The photographer broke the law and received the same treatment as if s/he had refused to photograph a black couple.

Bigotry is bigotry no matter who it is directed against and it is always wrong

It was widely highlighted on Fox News. The gays rejoiced as the parents that opposed gay rights were crushed by the defeat of teaching gay life to little children. They have no voice to what sexual morality is taught to their children. Oakland Alameda school district.

I know facts are not something you really enjoy…but you are talking about a group of people who were protesting the school’s anti-bullying policy. The lesson you are misrepresenting consists of 45-minute videos shown once during the course of the school year to kindergartener through fifth grade, and are geared to age appropriate subjects. I.E. Kindergartners learn about teasing and how it can be hurtful; issues of sexual orientation are included in the presentation shown to fifth-graders.

I notice the way the is spelled "teh" by gays in debates. Why is that? And without a doubt, I more than anything want to debate the naturalness of homosexuality.

Yet you avoid actual debate like it was the plague

I am and we are. Gays call it, though, hate speech and bigoty. But our opposition is a never ceasing stance and gays rights proponents will just have to deal with that. It's sad that Christians are working with so many godless to insert gay rights in our Churches.

Careful….those Godless Christians might want to open the doors to other minorities too

Infertile couples aside, I'd agree with you. Marriage should be applied to a man and a woman and the family.

You are engaging in special pleading…a logical fallacy. You want to use the issue of fertility to justify your own petty personal prejudice….but you don’t want the issue of fertility applied to anyone else except the minority you are attacking.

Gay rights people will flood our schools with gay propaganda about gay penguins and gay princes. Mothers day and fathers day will become a hate crime if anyone dares to keep it sensible.

“Gay propaganda” being claims that gays and lesbians are people and deserve the same rights and legal protections that everyone else takes for granted

The redefining of family is a major social concern. Chaos does not a ociety make.

can you give us all some specific concrete examples of the negative effects to our families if there is legal recognition of same gendered marriage?

Nature shows us that family is male/female and offspring.

You might want to look at nature before making claims like that…the mother/father joining to raise offspring is something of a rarity in nature.

Secular also means darwinian evolution.

This makes no sense other than to act as a distracter from the failings of your own position

he was arrested and convicted. Gays rights advocates keep on keeping on. They have shown a one-step process to overhauling society. Quebec proves that too.

You might want to look up exactly what he was arrested for…

I made an accusation. Prove my libel. I'm not afriad of the research.

Then why not engage in it?

Hilton showed us all that gays want to marginalize Christians (as even you do time and again) into a small voiceless community.

You are talking about that blond woman who had her own reality TV show for a while right?

Once we leave our Churches everything we do and desire for society is secular. Why is it so acceptable to drive a group of people into the shadows? What happened to tolerance and diversity? That means accpeting opposition.

Now ask yourself these same questions

Live exclusively in a gay community in gay buildings and have your views all you want to. Keep them private. As sexuality should be. Yet somehow I don't think that will go over to big to gays. They seem to desire that their private beliefs be embraced by society as a whole.

Why should the marriages, families and romances of gays and lesbians be hidden when heterosexuals routinely flaunt such things?

Christians deserve the same rights.

No one is infringing on your rights. You have every right to be prejudiced against any minority you please. But your right to hate ends when it interferes with the equal rights and legal protections of others

That said I would prefer you don’t call what you are advocating as “Christian”…it is insulting to Christians everywhere

If what your Church does negatively impacts me and my family, then our struggle is set forth.

Yet you are attacking gays and lesbians for defending their rights and trying to protect their families

The bad thing here, is that yiu are a Christian. You should be supporting the anti-gays in the Church. They are the ones that are consistent with Church orthodoxy, history and scripture.

The same can be said of racism…should my church start supporting the KKK?

Last time I looked, the Constitution gives loud support for religion to be freely expressed in the forum of society. I am sure that is why gay rigts advocates moved into Christian denominations. In our Church, we are working on the problem of gay rights in our denom. It is a very serious issue. One (of course) that is bringing the typical response of schism.

Your right to religious expression does not trump the rights of others to be free form persecution and discrimination

True. many, many, many, many, kinds of people reject homosexuality.

And many many many many people reject racial equality….does this make racism a morally justifiable thing?

Where schism is found, you almost invariably find heresy. It is detailed that false teachers and false teachings would and does enter the Church. I rather rejoice that we are seeing it so open in our world today. It gives a chance to teach orthodoxy with power.

The schism seems to be between those who follow the teachings of Jesus and accept everyone even gays and lesbians and those who reject the teachings of Jesus and work to further prejudice

 

[BigBadWlf]

Blacks reject the gay slavery comparison. So do I.

I said i would come back to address this...

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice... But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King, Jr., said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere' ... I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King, Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brotherhood and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people." Coretta Scott King

"We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny... I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be," she said, quoting from her husband. "I've always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in democracy." Coretta Scott King


"We have a lot of work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say 'common struggle,' because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry & discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination." Coretta Scott King

"Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood. This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group." Coretta Scott King

“It is time to say forthrightly that the government's exclusion of our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters from civil marriage officially degrades them and their families.” John Lewis

“Discrimination is wrong. We cannot keep turning our backs on gay and lesbian Americans. I have fought too hard and too long against discrimination based on race and color not to stand up against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I've heard the reasons for opposing civil marriage for same-sex couples. Cut through the distractions, and they stink of the same fear, hatred, and intolerance I have known in racism and in bigotry.” John Lewis

“In 1948, when I was 8 years old, 30 states had bans on interracial marriage, courts had upheld the bans many times, and 90 percent of the public disapproved of those marriages, saying they were against the definition of marriage, against God's law. But that year, the California Supreme Court became the first court in America to strike down such a ban. Thank goodness some court finally had the courage to say that equal means equal.” John Lewis

“Gays and lesbians have a more difficult time than we did. We had our families and our churches on our side. All too often, they have neither." Dr. James Lawson


“When I am asked, 'Are gay rights civil rights?' my answer is always, 'Of course they are.' Rights for gays and lesbians are not 'special rights' in any way. It isn't "special" to be free from discrimination -- that's an ordinary, universal entitlement of citizenship” Julian Bond


“No parallels between movements for rights is exact. African-Americans are the only Americans who were enslaved for more than two centuries, and people of color carry the badge of who we are on our faces. But we are far from the only people suffering discrimination -- sadly, so do many others. They deserve the law's protection and they deserve civil rights too. Sexual disposition parallels race -- I was born black and I had no choice. I couldn't and wouldn't change if I could. Like race, our sexuality isn't a preference -- it is immutable, unchangeable, and the Constitution protects us against prejudices based on immutable differences” Julian Bond

“Discrimination is discrimination no matter who the victim is, and it is always wrong. There are no special rights in America, despite the attempts by many to divide blacks and the gay community with the argument that the latter are seeking some imaginary special rights at the expense of blacks.” Julian Bond



"Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the 'wrong kind of person' for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to marry. Government has no business imposing some people's religious beliefs over others. Especially if it denies people's civil rights.” Mildred Loving

“Of course you know that most of the stuff you hear against same-sex couples is the same type of hogwash folk used to keep interracial couples from getting married in Maryland. Maryland did not honor interracial marriage until 1967 (not that long ago). And it’s also the same type of thing you heard when the government was about to desegregate schools. They said “If you integrate the schools it would push the White race back a generation,” which meant that it was okay to keep an oppressive educational system because it would cause the other to fail, thereby justifying continued subjection and discrimination. It was fully irrational as is what you hear today regarding same-sex marriage.” Rev John Crestwell

“we have to stand up on the side in love and say that if we believe in the worth and dignity of all people, no matter their sexual orientation; that if we believe “God is no respecter of persons”; if we believe we are all sisters and brothers on this planet, then whenever you get the chance, and humanity calls to you, stand up and say with power and conviction that denying folk their inherent rights as human beings is wrong” Rev John Crestwell

“it is not just a fight for the gay community, it is a battle for justice and freedom for all human beings. We are either going to live up to the principles of our faith and tenets set forth in our constitution then move forward, or go backward to tragic days history won’t allow us to forget… I say let us, once and for all, put an end to subjugation; put an end to discrimination against folk just because they are a woman, or just because they are a man, or Gay or Straight or Asian or Black or Arab or Jewish or Palestinian—put an end to this madness, once and for all no matter how it manifests” Rev John Crestwell

“The debate is becoming a smoke screen from the real issue, which is that discrimination and a denial of civil rights, in any form, towards any group, is wrong.” Lola Andesioye

“At the end of the day it doesn’t matter which group is most oppressed or whether they are identically oppressed, what matters is that no group be oppressed.”
Keith Boykin

“I am in the valley of prayer on the issue of gay marriage, and I will err on the side of inclusiveness and not exclusion. I’m going to follow Jesus and say, Whosoever will, let them come. And I’m going to extend rights to all of God’s children” Rev. Joseph Lowery

"Whenever a society wants to demonize a particular group, it prohibits them from marrying." Sheila Kuehl

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Martin Luther King , Jr.

"We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be."
Martin Luther King Jr.

"It is never legitimate to use the words of scripture to promote a loveless agenda."
Rev. Dr. Peter Short

"The opportunity to be threatened, humiliated and to live in fear of being beaten to death is the only 'special right' our culture bestows on homosexuals."
Diane Carman

 

[AlAyeti]

These are your examples of "homosexual recruitment"?

They show this is the concern of those orgs. Why are they concerned if gays are such wonderful people and homosexuality so enlightening? Why not rejoice in the coming of the gay worldview? They are deeply oppositional to gay rights. For a good reason. Recruitment or seduction.

So when you have a moment of silence or a day of prayer to honor friends who were cruelly murdered, are you taking advantage of the opportunity to twist it into a hidden agenda of secretly recruiting people to Bible studies?

What? Christians would not be allowed to recruit others into a day of silence for the crucified Christ or Christian martyrs anywhere. Our young people have to gather before school and outside. And ANY attempt at encouraging others would be smashed by opposition.

All the Day of Silence is, is a chance to remember those killed for no reason other than that they were different.

It is a very effective recruitment technique. Genius even. Anyone opposing is ostracised by school staff. yes, genius technique.

One has to wonder if those people opposing it are doing it because they feel that the victims of these horrible crimes "got what they deserved, and would prefer that no one is concerned about the murderers running around looking for their next victim.

Thank you for proving my point. Incredible advertising technique. Pure genius. Supernaturally impressive almost. ANY opposition is guilty of hate in the highest meaning of the word.

Ohhh that the Gospel were allowed such a manipulation to enter our schools. But that's illegal.

 

[David Brider]

I think this is the subject of the debate, isn't it? Whether acting on that attraction (in the fullest sense of forming a sexually intimate bond with another person) is sin? It could be phrased in different ways, but there is something which may be called an orientation/inclination/tendency which determines matters of attraction, and there is an action (sex) which might follow upon that attraction.

Might being very much the operative word. The impression one might get from those who are opposed to homosexuality is that they're sex-crazed maniacs, at it like little bunny rabbits. I suspect (but only suspect, because quite frankly I don't see it as any of my business to pry into other folks' private lives) that the average homosexual is no more sexually active than the average heterosexual.

Let me give a sort of illustration, and ask a question of you... Two homosexual men meet. They like each other, get to know each other, end up dating, trips to the cinema and the theatre and meals out together and walks in the park holding hands and kissing, and they're pretty much a serious item. And they have the good fortune to live somewhere like Canada or South Africa where same-gender couples are allowed to get married, so they do so. But - for whatever reason, maybe they don't have time, or they're not particularly interested, or they have some sort of moral qualms about it - they don't have sexual intercourse with each other.

So here's the question - and I throw this one out to anybody who's convinced that homosexuality is a sin: at what point, if any, have they committed a sin?

And another question, for good measure. Supposing they do eventually have sexual intercourse. But, they're busy, both out at work earning an honest wage during the week, and then at the weekend catching up with the shopping and household chores and socialising that they don't have time for in the week, so they maybe have sexual intercourse two or three times a week. So the second question - is that really, in all honesty, such a big deal? I mean, the world isn't exactly going to fall apart because of it, the two guys in question are happy, it doesn't have any negative impact on anybody else, and there are far worse things going on in the world - murder, rape, war, etc. So two guys occasionally have sexual intercourse with each other - does it matter?

David.

 

[David Brider]

Then there is no probloem. Be gay but don't do gay.

And by "don't do gay" you mean what, exactly?

David.

 

[BigBadWlf]

And by "don't do gay" you mean what, exactly?

David.

I’m guessing it is kind of like choosing to not be black

 

[David Brider]

We are two Christians David.

Indeed.

All of the gains and success garnered by gay rights organizations has come from "the world" and worldy people. Except of course, the liberal theology that finds its way in denominations via Alinsky methods.

I've no idea what "Alinsky methods" are. But anyway...I suspect that the "gains and success garnered by gay rights organisations" has come about quite simply because society as a whole has done a lot of growing up over the last fifty years and realised that homosexuals far from being monsters or demons worthy of scorn or physical violence, or figures of fun worthy of belittling or ridiculing, are just ordinary folks like you and me.

When you can't tell the difference between a worldy person and someone in a Church, that person is corrupted by the powers and principalities of the world. It's an age old battle.

Okay. Not really sure how that's relevant.

Sin inclination is what is to be overcome in the Christian life. Not embraced.

Fine, but then we're back to the question: does homosexuality - an attraction to people of the same gender as oneself - constitute a sin inclination? If so, what sin is it an inclination to?

David.

 

[Zeena]

As the poll currently stands it's almost double for the "yes" answer.

I think that's rather sad considering Christians are the ones to be polling here..

What ever happened to purity? Whatever happened to holiness, without which, no one will see the Lord?

Whatever happneded to Jesus, Living His Holy Life in and through us who believe?

 

[BigBadWlf]

As the poll currently stands it's almost double for the "yes" answer.

I think that's rather sad considering Christians are the ones to be polling here..

What ever happened to purity? Whatever happened to holiness, without which, no one will see the Lord?

Whatever happneded to Jesus, Living His Holy Life in and through us who believe?

When did Jesus say being gay was a sin?

 

[David Brider]

As the poll currently stands it's almost double for the "yes" answer.

I think that's rather sad considering Christians are the ones to be polling here..

What ever happened to purity? Whatever happened to holiness, without which, no one will see the Lord?

Whatever happneded to Jesus, Living His Holy Life in and through us who believe?

Well, speaking as one of the people who voted "no"...I'm very passionate about holiness and purity and living a Godly life and being a disciple of Jesus with all that that entails.

I also, on prayerful study of the Bible, have come to the conclusion that homosexuality isn't a sin.

There's no conflict between the two positions.

David.

 

[lordworshipper]

When did Jesus say being gay was a sin?

he didnt.

I don't believe it is one, simply because the bible has been changed so much we can't actually know.

 

[anyman]

When did Jesus say being gay was a sin?

I think this is an interesting statement. Are you implying that only the red letters in the new testiment are valid & the rest not? If so why not throw the rest away? But would that cast any doubt on the validity of the Gospels?

 

[OllieFranz]

Thanks, Ollie, for your detailed and interesting post. I'm sorry it took me awhile to respond. I have a couple of comments.

I'm a little late responding to this because I missed it earlier today. I apologize.

First regarding the immediate literary context of the verses quoted. Looking at Romans 1:18-32 overall, it still seems to me that same-gender sex is categorized along with other sinful activities. Verses 26 and 27 are in the midst of a broader passage describing the sinfulness of humanity and our need for salvation. Given the context, I would hesitate to extrapolate a great deal from similarities to Greek philosophy; Paul himself, whatever his influences, framed the issue in the context of humanity's descent into sin.

Not exactly. It was not the sinfulness of humanity, it was the sinfulness of the Gentiles. Paul was copying the style of a form of Jewish literature which had become popular during the preceding two centuries. It blamed all the ills of the world on the ascendancy of the pagan Gentiles (for which read the Greeks and Romans), and their sins, which all spring from their rejection of the One God. The most easily obtainable example of this "apocalyptic" literature is found in the 14th chapter of The Wisdom of Solomon.

The Christians in Rome could see the interplay of these pagan sins, especially the ones that Paul focused on, on display daily in the palace and the homes of the elite. They would be agreeing that the sins of the pagans were terrible, and thankful that they had been saved from their degradation. Then we get to Chapter 2, verses 1-3:

"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?"
​

Paul goes on to show that being a God-fearing Gentile is not enough to save you. Nor is being a Law-honoring Jew enough to save you. And he chooses different sins to highlight for each group. He is saying that it does not matter that your sins are different from those of another group: all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

So, yes, Paul does describe the sinfulness of humanity , but he does so in stages, and that for a specific purpose. Verses 1:18-32 do not describe the fall of humanity in general, it describes the specific fall of the Gentile pagans.

In this context, it becomes clear that he quoted Plato in order to show that even in their Godless condition, the Gentile pagans recognize that some of what they are doing is "para physin" or sin. Since it their own self-recognized sin, it needs to be understood as they understood it: uncontrolled passion with no regard as to who or what is the object of the passion. The same-sex aspect of the example was mainly an ethnic joke against Cretans in general, and one of the other participants in the dialogue in particular. It was also an easy way to signal that the participants were going overboard in their addiction. In Greek society, sex, whether with women or with youths or other men, served certain purposes, and should only be "enjoyed" when it was appropriate to those purposes.

My second comment is a reminder to those of my position that same-gender sex is far from the only sin mentioned in this passage. Immediately following on the passage I cited, Paul says "Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things." (The following verses continue this thought.) I want to make it clear that I do not see same-gender sex as something qualitatively different from all other sins. I do not believe it is judging to discern and teach what scripture says on any particular issue, but it would be judgmental to condemn others while I hold myself to a looser standard. I think Romans 1 tells us something of God's standards for holiness, but it also makes the point that none of us is righteous on our own. While this is not a license to overlook sin, it is likewise not a license to forget that it is but one sin of many.