God gave man free will, and therefore "Homosexuality" is a choice; BUT it is a very BAD choice !!
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Habitual lying for personal gain or pride is what God hates. I honestly do not think that lying to or deceiving Hitler to save peoples lives can be put in this category that God hates! It's like a thief and murderer breaks into your home and threatens your life, you give him all your money, then he asks you where is your wife and daughter ... you think well, I can't tell a lie, God wouldn't like that, so you tell them, my daughter should be home soon and my wife gets off work in one hour, so he waits to rape and kill them as you watch. Do you think anyone in their right mind would do that? Lying in this case the right thing to do. I'm sensing that your moral code is out of whack and you can figure the difference between whats right and wrong. ???
Some advice for you: Don't get caught up in this secular psycho-babble that they teach in Universities, it will derail you on your path of understanding the nature of man and about purpose and order in life. They miss a very important aspect of the behavior of man, because they leave God out of the equation and sin as well. The Bible is a much better manual to learn from guided by the Holy Spirit, revealing (in time and gradually) the truth of all things.
Lying is never right, that isn't biblical.
That still doesn't answer the question of what makes homosexuality not natural. The animal argument does not prove homosexuality is right. All it ever does is prove your lame argument that homosexuality is not natural wrong. All the animal argument says is homosexuality is natural. Not everything natural is right, and not everything natural is wrong. So you have still failed to answer the question of why homosexuality is wrong.
Great, so we have established that there is some pride God hates, and some pride God doesn't. Therefore, God does not hate pride itself, but rather the motives for pride.
God does not hate lying, he hates what lying does. So when lying brings justice, God does not hate lying.
The end of your quoted verse says Love determines right and wrong. That's exactly what I have been trying to explain to you. Being proud of being a Christian is "a prideful look" that demonstrates a love of God. Lying to the Nazi's is "a lying tongue" that demonstrates a love for humanity. All God cares about is whether we do things because we love one another. There is not some behavior that he hates intrinsically.
It's somewhat odd the way these sort of threads inevitably have a trajectory towards whether or not homosexuality is a sin or not.(already said my piece on that) When the question was if it was a choice or not. Which is a different subject completely.
@Jonathan95 :
Hmmm, what about "Irena Sendler" ? She was a Polish Catholic social worker who used various deceptive methods to save the lives of 500 Jewish adults, and 2500 Jewish children by smuggleing them out of the Warsaw Ghetto one and two at a time, thereby risking being tortured and murdered on over 1500 separate occasions.. Further she arranged places for them to live, and provided them with "FALSE IDENTIFICATION" documents so as to enable them to avoid being arrested. She also kept records of who these children really were in order that they might be reunited with any surviving relatives after the war was over.
And when she was finally caught and tortured by the Gestapo, she gave them NOTHING !!
Are you trying to say that what she did was wrong ??? I view her story as one of "Heroism Unparalleled In History" !!!
@Jonathan95 :
Hmmm, what about "Irena Sendler" ? She was a Polish Catholic social worker who used various deceptive methods to save the lives of 500 Jewish adults, and 2500 Jewish children by smuggleing them out of the Warsaw Ghetto one and two at a time, thereby risking being tortured and murdered on over 1500 separate occasions.. Further she arranged places for them to live, and provided them with "FALSE IDENTIFICATION" documents so as to enable them to avoid being arrested. She also kept records of who these children really were in order that they might be reunited with any surviving relatives after the war was over.
And when she was finally caught and tortured by the Gestapo, she gave them NOTHING !!
Are you trying to say that what she did was wrong ??? I view her story as one of "Heroism Unparalleled In History" !!!
i hope so. God see our heart. and there is nothing Jesus detest more than people whose behaviours turn people away from Him. esp if they know that is what they are doing.
you can say all you want, given what i seen of your post here. i wont be surprised many gays are turned away from gospel as the result of you "way". of course, you say you are not judgemental. but it is also crystal clear you do not care whether the "way" you spread gospel is turning them away or. your fruit already reveals your intention.
btw, i am tired of going round and round with many of you. dont answer this one please.
it is between you and God.
like i said, God sees everything and we will all reap what we sow.
I fully challenge this notion. If you sin you ARE a sinner. And I believe you have sinned since you've been saved.
You are trying to mince words to justify an elitist view of sin. You say you are free of it but any man who says just because he got saved he is now free of sin is a liar, OH wait! There's another Sin.
Your elitism is yet again demonstrated here: "You need to read a little bit more before you take on the position of judging the church of the Living God." So now all the sudden your opinions are "the Church of the Living God" and mine are not?
Your thought process is clear to me my your words.
Thinking you are better than someone else is NOT in line with what Jesus taught.
Now argue with the Bible:
Romans 2:1-3 ESV
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?
John 8:7 ESV
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”
James 1:26 ESV
If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.
Have you heard the recent accusation toward Kirk Cameron in a CNN interview about the subject of homosexuality?
Read it here...God has plenty to say about this subject.
God bless!
I fully challenge this notion. If you sin you ARE a sinner. And I believe you have sinned since you've been saved.
I'm sorry but do you realize that no man or woman can be saved until they REPENT! its impossible to be saved without repentance, so no matter how loving you present "your" gospel if the homosexual does not reconize he or she is living in sin, and does not repent first, there will be NO FORGIVENESS OF SINS, when there is no forgiveness of sins, there is no new spirit deposited, no regeneration, no salvation. if you sow a false gospel of no repentance, you will reap christians who think they are saved but will end up in hell because you cheated them of the truth. the truth is REPENT! and turn from a life of sin, deny yourself and follow Jesus, the love of God is waiting to forgive everyone of their sins, if they simply repent they will be forgiven, that is the gospel of love
Before you go around calling people judgmental, elitist, or unloving, you should ask yourself if you react to every sin the way God does, and do you have the same internal feelings towards every sin the way God does. If not, then you have no right to point out anyone else's reactions or feelings.
I challenge your notion. A sinner is someone who does not have salvation because they live a lifestyle of unrepentant sin.
Sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God. If Christians are still sinners because they make mistakes, sin, and ask God for forgiveness, then no one is going to heaven. Jesus did not save sinners so they could remain sinners still, and die and go to hell. What is the value of salvation if we become sinners all over again once we make a mistake.
Blessed is the man to whom God will not impute sin. That means when we sin, we are NOT sinners, because God is not imputing our sin to us. It has been punished in the body of Jesus Christ. Now, God is not mocked. We cannot deliberately, consistently, walk in a lifestyle of sin, and think that God's grace will cover that. Jesus did not die on the cross so we could have a license to sin. No. We should walk worthy of the high calling.
'Sinner' indicates our condition. As in being descended from Adam and born inherently sinful. Those who continue in their lifestyle of sin and reject Christ's sacrifice. Once you are saved you are born again you are a new creature in Christ. You are not still a sinner. Will God let sinners into heaven?
The question is not 'have you sinned since you have been saved?' Because even Peter sinned after receiving salvation, when he refused to eat with the Gentiles when the Jews were around. And Paul is constantly correcting the churches, telling them where they have messed up, and calling them to repent. But they are still believers. In the Christian life, we are learning as we go, and we make mistakes. Sometimes we deliberately sin. But we are forgiven if we repent.
See Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
While we were still sinners.... That means we are no longer sinners. Before salvation we are sinners. After salvation we are NOT.
Also Romans 5:19 - For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Through Christ, we are made righteous. Not temporarily righteous, until we mess up and sin. But simply righteous.
We were made sinners because of Adam's sin, before we were even born, and hadn't committed one sin. Being a sinner vs. righteous is about our condition before God. We are no longer being evaluated on the merit system. We are being evaluated on 'have you accepted Christ or not?'
It is hard to understand, but we must trust what the bible says on this.
Treating every sinner the way God does isn't our place, it's God's. We are told to not worry about other's sins and leave it to the Lord.
"I won't allow the argument to be twisted by you going off on tangents about nonsense. The argument here is that yes WE DO all sin, even those who are saved. Whether you believe that it's necessary to ask for forgiveness or not after you as a christian sin is your business. And NO the church in general does not approach the homosexual man in the way prescribed by Jesus and the Bible. Sure there are instances this may be true of all of us. It would be very difficult (for example) for me to speak to a man who murdered a child. Are we then to say that because it's sometimes difficult we shouldn't care about trying to fix it in an area like homosexuality in which potentially 10's of thousands have been damned who wouldn't have been if we had treated them differently?"
Just because you missed the point of my last comments doesn't mean they were off topic. *sigh*....You said that a person who sins is a sinner. My comment was providing support for my view that once you are saved you are no longer a sinner. That is not a tangent. It was a direct response to your comment.
There is a big distinction between calling someone a hypocrite as an argument to entice change and calling someone a hypocrite as a cop out to excuse your behavior.
To excuse my behavior? What behavior are you talking about? I do not mistreat homosexuals? If you think otherwise, you need to give me examples of how I have mistreated them.
It seems like you and other posters are assuming things about me before even knowing that they are true or not. I am no more judgmental than anyone else in the world (as I pointed out in my earlier post, we all judge everything and everyone in some way). And I do not mistreat homosexuals.
Again, If I have mistreated them, how? What is your definition of mistreating homosexuals?
Treating every sinner the way God does isn't our place, it's God's. We are told to not worry about other's sins and leave it to the Lord. I won't allow the argument to be twisted by you going off on tangents about nonsense. The argument here is that yes WE DO all sin, even those who are saved. Whether you believe that it's necessary to ask for forgiveness or not after you as a christian sin is your business. And NO the church in general does not approach the homosexual man in the way prescribed by Jesus and the Bible. Sure there are instances this may be true of all of us. It would be very difficult (for example) for me to speak to a man who murdered a child. Are we then to say that because it's sometimes difficult we shouldn't care about trying to fix it in an area like homosexuality in which potentially 10's of thousands have been damned who wouldn't have been if we had treated them differently?
There is a big distinction between calling someone a hypocrite as an argument to entice change and calling someone a hypocrite as a cop out to excuse your behavior.
No, you are mistaken. The argument here is "Is Homosexuality a choice" per the OP of the topic. A few of you have come in to try to deflect from the topic by blaming the church, or the christian for the sin of the world. To accuse us, to falsely accuse us. To try to twist the situation around to appear that because we agree with the judgments of God as written in His word that somehow that makes us hypocrites or whatever.
I've just been saved long enough that I don't buy it. I know who I am in Christ, I know what He did for me. I know my worth based on the word of God and I don't even allow other Christians to tear me down or make me doubt who I am in Christ. He redeemed me by his very own blood. He set my feet upon the rock to eternity. I'm saved by grace, and a joint heir with Him for the Kingdom of God.
A few accusations by people in a discussion forum who don't know me, don't know where I came from, what I was delivered from, or where I am headed isn't going to change that.
And what you think of me, won't change what the world of God says about the topic of this discussion. Homosexuality is a choice, to sin or not sin is a choice, and when you reject the word of God and choose sin, you choose to bring the judgment of God on yourself for eternity.
For the people of God to speak this is only to agree with the judgment of God. No mor no less. We line ourselves up with God and what He says as truth. You judge us for that. So be it. I'm sure God is not shocked.
It's somewhat odd the way these sort of threads inevitably have a trajectory towards whether or not homosexuality is a sin or not.(already said my piece on that) When the question was if it was a choice or not. Which is a different subject completely.
I didn't say anything about treating them the way God treats them. I was talking about an internal feeling. How do you feel about one sin over another sin. What is your personal reaction to it when you hear about it, verses how God feels about each sin. And actually, we should be treating sinners the way Jesus treated them...aren't we his disciples?
"I won't allow the argument to be twisted by you going off on tangents about nonsense. The argument here is that yes WE DO all sin, even those who are saved. Whether you believe that it's necessary to ask for forgiveness or not after you as a christian sin is your business. And NO the church in general does not approach the homosexual man in the way prescribed by Jesus and the Bible. Sure there are instances this may be true of all of us. It would be very difficult (for example) for me to speak to a man who murdered a child. Are we then to say that because it's sometimes difficult we shouldn't care about trying to fix it in an area like homosexuality in which potentially 10's of thousands have been damned who wouldn't have been if we had treated them differently?"
Just because you missed the point of my last comments doesn't mean they were off topic. *sigh*....You said that a person who sins is a sinner. My comment was providing support for my view that once you are saved you are no longer a sinner. That is not a tangent. It was a direct response to your comment.
To excuse my behavior? What behavior are you talking about? I do not mistreat homosexuals? If you think otherwise, you need to give me examples of how I have mistreated them.
It seems like you and other posters are assuming things about me before even knowing that they are true or not. I am no more judgmental than anyone else in the world (as I pointed out in my earlier post, we all judge everything and everyone in some way). And I do not mistreat homosexuals.
Again, If I have mistreated them, how? What is your definition of mistreating homosexuals?
you ask for examples?
i have consistently give you one
that is your insistence to likn homo = pado
such accusation is serious, esp if you refuse again and agian to be fair on the issue and get your fact straights before you do.
furthermore you are still unable to provide a actual direct scripture passage that support such argument.
it is like i say i love one of my neighbours but i insist going around believing despite evidences to the contrary that they engage in beasility.
sure, i may not going around spread it deliberate ( as you claims), but that does not mean i wont share them if asked ( hence that is still slandering).
you have NO love for gays, if you do, you would not want to slander them in that manner.
you and the other woman continue to use homo = sin to justify your behaviour.
but you two consistently to twist above concept to counter my assertion we need to show them love etc etc
yet you two have the audacity to keep claim you are not mistreating them
yes you are, through sladndering, through twisting scripture to advocating unloving treatment of them
what disgust me the most is you two audacity to keep deny your hate for them, if you want to hate, at least be man enough and own up to it at least.
we can tell a person by their fruits. and you two fruits are there for everyone on this forums to see.