Is Herod the Great the subject at the end of the Daniel 11?

[claninja]

Daniel 11:44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many

In the Biblical account, Herod the great was troubled by news from the east and then killed many children 2 years and under
Matthew 2:1,3,16 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under.

From secular accounts (Ant. XVII 4-7; Wars 1:30-33), at about the same time Jesus was born, Herod the great received news from his son, Antipater, who was in Rome (the north) that his other sons had made false reports about him to Caesar. This resulted in a "great fury" and him killing many of his own family members.

 

[DavidPT]

Daniel 11:44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many

In the Biblical account, Herod the great was troubled by news from the east and then killed many children 2 years and under
Matthew 2:1,3,16 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under.

From secular accounts (Ant. XVII 4-7; Wars 1:30-33), at about the same time Jesus was born, Herod the great received news from his son, Antipater, who was in Rome (the north) that his other sons had made false reports about him to Caesar. This resulted in a "great fury" and him killing many of his own family members.

Don't you have to make all that fit with the following as well?

Daniel 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.


IOW---assuming Herod the great is meant.


Daniel 11:41 Herod the great shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of King Herod's hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 Herod the great shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But Herod the great shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at Herod the great's steps.
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble Herod the great: therefore Herod the great shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45 And Herod the great shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet Herod the great shall come to his end, and none shall help Herod the great.

 

[claninja]

Don't you have to make all that fit with the following as well?

Daniel 11:41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.


IOW---assuming Herod the great is meant.


Daniel 11:41 Herod the great shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of King Herod's hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
42 Herod the great shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
43 But Herod the great shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at Herod the great's steps.
44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble Herod the great: therefore Herod the great shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
45 And Herod the great shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet Herod the great shall come to his end, and none shall help Herod the great.

I would argue that Daniel 11:40-43 is not specifically about Herod the great, but about the battle of Actium. Plutarch's description of the battle of Actium fits nicely here. Antony and Cleopatra (Egypt; king of the south) made the first move against Octavion (Caesar Augustus; Rome/Syria; King of the North). Then Octavian moved south to fight against Antony and Cleopatra. The war involved an extremely large number ships and armies. Octavian eventually won and then swept through the middle east uniting the roman empire. However, it is interesting to note, the areas of Edom, Moab, and Ammon did not come under roman control at that time. Once Octavian defeated Antony and Cleopatra, he gained all of the treasures of Alexandria (Ptolemaic Egypt) and then also conquered parts of Lybia and Ethiopia.

Herod the great was at first on Antony and Cleopatra's side of the war, but once they lost, he pledged allegiance to Octavian (Caesar Augustus). Octavian then titled Herod king of Judea

This was the final war of the Roman republic, which transitioned the kingdom into the Roman Empire

Daniel 11:40-43 At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites e in submission

Herod was known for his building projects and built two palaces for himself in Jerusalem (holy mountain), which would have between the dead sea and the Mediterranean.
Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

The end of Daniel 11 at the death of Herod the great leads us right up to the birth of Christ.

Considering the author of Hebrews states Jesus appeared once at the CULMINATION of the ages, it also fits nicely with "time of the end"
Hebrews 9:26 But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself
Daniel 11:40 At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle,

 

[Revealing Times]

Daniel 11:44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many

In the Biblical account, Herod the great was troubled by news from the east and then killed many children 2 years and under
Matthew 2:1,3,16 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under.

From secular accounts (Ant. XVII 4-7; Wars 1:30-33), at about the same time Jesus was born, Herod the great received news from his son, Antipater, who was in Rome (the north) that his other sons had made false reports about him to Caesar. This resulted in a "great fury" and him killing many of his own family members.

This is not about Herod the Great at all, it's about the coming Anti-Christ.

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon (Jordan, where Israel/Woman in Rev. 12, Flees).

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

44 But tidings out of the east (China) and out of the north(Russia) shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain (Jerusalem is between the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean Sea/Holy Mountain); yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

See verse 41 where it states he overthrows MANY COUNTRIES ? So he defeats MANY plus Israel. Nowlets look back a bit to see what this means.

Dan. 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

What does the MANY mean in ALL THREE VERSES ? Well it means the MANY NATIONS in the Mediterranean Sea Region of course. To become a Beast that arises out of the Sea (Mediterranean) the last Beast has to be like the other Beasts and rule the whole region, not just Israel.

So this European Beast will Conquer all of North Africa, and all the Nations around Israel save Jordan, AND Israel also.

Of course thinking on a geo political scale what would happen if the European Union conquered, invaded the Mediterranean Sea Region with all that oil and with those great ports of entry ? Well of course Russian and China would become ALARMED to say the least, so tiding out of the east and north are pretty basic concepts here.

The Old Roman Empire as per land mass will look almost exactly the same as the new one. Google European Neighborhood Policy, the E.U. already have 7 year AGREEMENTS (Covenants) with these MANY nations including Israel. ITS TRUE.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would argue that Daniel 11:40-43 is not specifically about Herod the great, but about the battle of Actium. Plutarch's description of the battle of Actium fits nicely here. Antony and Cleopatra (Egypt; king of the south) made the first move against Octavion (Caesar Augustus; Rome/Syria; King of the North). Then Octavian moved south to fight against Antony and Cleopatra. The war involved an extremely large number ships and armies. Octavian eventually won and then swept through the middle east uniting the roman empire. However, it is interesting to note, the areas of Edom, Moab, and Ammon did not come under roman control at that time. Once Octavian defeated Antony and Cleopatra, he gained all of the treasures of Alexandria (Ptolemaic Egypt) and then also conquered parts of Lybia and Ethiopia.

Herod the great was at first on Antony and Cleopatra's side of the war, but once they lost, he pledged allegiance to Octavian (Caesar Augustus). Octavian then titled Herod king of Judea

This was the final war of the Roman republic, which transitioned the kingdom into the Roman Empire

Daniel 11:40-43 At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. He will also invade the Beautiful Land. Many countries will fall, but Edom, Moab and the leaders of Ammon will be delivered from his hand. He will extend his power over many countries; Egypt will not escape. He will gain control of the treasures of gold and silver and all the riches of Egypt, with the Libyans and Cushites e in submission

Herod was known for his building projects and built two palaces for himself in Jerusalem (holy mountain), which would have between the dead sea and the Mediterranean.
Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

The end of Daniel 11 at the death of Herod the great leads us right up to the birth of Christ.

Considering the author of Hebrews states Jesus appeared once at the CULMINATION of the ages, it also fits nicely with "time of the end"
Hebrews 9:26 But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself
Daniel 11:40 At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle,

I am just getting to this. I haven't really studied that much on Dan 11, but I did find some interesting verses in relation to the possibility of 70ad.

The phrase "time of the end" only occurs in 5 verses of the Bible, all in Daniel.

Dan 8:17
So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”
Dan 11:
35 “And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time. [Followers of Christ/Disciples/Saints?]
40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.
Dan 12:
4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12 is the Olivet Discourse.

I find Vs 40 concerning the attack of the north upon the south interesting.

40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him;
and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships;
and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.

If you look at a map of 1st century Israel, Judah was at the southernmost part of Israel with the rest of Israel to the north.
Gad and Reuben were more to the East, with Dan on the West. Ephraim is directly above Benjamin. Simeaon is sorrounded by Judah.
[Interesting that both Dan and half tribe of Ephraim are missing from Revelation]
Paul's tribe of Benjamin is right on the northern tip of Judah where Jerusalem is.

Then this prophecy, which I feel is also concerning the 70ad of the Romans decimating of Jerusalem:

Jeremiah 1:15
For behold! I am calling All the families of the kingdoms of the north,” says the LORD;
“They shall come and each one set his throne At the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem,
Against all its walls all around, And against all the cities of Judah.

Mat 24:16
“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Mar 13:14
“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,'[fn] spoken of by Daniel the prophet,[fn] standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Luk 21:
21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
22“For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

The attacks by the Romans and their allies came from the north after arriving on ships from Rome. Here is an interesting map I found concerning the routes taken
by that army.

I got these maps from preteristarchive site:
map of roman army jerusalem preteristarchive - Google Search

 

[claninja]

The context of Daniel 11 is the kings of the North (Syria) and the Kings of the south (Egypt).

Dan. 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

This happened at the battle of Actium.

The king of the South (Ptolemaic Egypt: Antony and Cleopatra) initiated the war against the king of the north (Rome/Syria: Octavian: Caesar Augustus). This battle was fought with an extremely large number of ships.

Herod the great, was initially on the Antony and Cleopatra's side, but when they were defeated, he switched to Octavian's side.

41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon

This happened after the battle of Actium.

When Octavian (Caesar Augustus) defeated Antony/Cleopatra, He united the Roman republic, which ultimately transitioned into the Romans Empire. By the end of his reign, Augustus had significantly expanded the territories (MANY COUNTRIES) of the roman empire: Spain, alpine regions of raetia and Noricum, Illyricum, Pannonia, parts of Africa.

**It's interesting to note that while Octavian was emperor over Syria, which included Judea as a vassal state, he was unable to conquer the lands of Edom, Moab, and Ammon.

42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.

This happened after the battle of Actium

Octavian (Caesar Augusts) gained control of all the wealth of Alexandria (Egypt), he also conquered Libya and Ethopia around this time.

44 But tidings out of the east (China) and out of the north(Russia) shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

We have NT scripture that states news from the east troubled and made Herod the great furious, which resulted in him killing many children.
Matthew 2:1,3,16 After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem. When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under.

**However, if as you say, the east is china, you should be able to provide supporting scripture for your theory.

And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain (Jerusalem is between the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean Sea/Holy Mountain); yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Herod the great had two palaces in Jerusalem. He also built many temples and fortresses throughout the Syrian and Judean area. Herod the great was known for his building projects.

yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Herod the great died of an unknown painful disease sometimes called "herod's evil"

See verse 41 where it states he overthrows MANY COUNTRIES ?

Yes, Caesar Augustus overthrew many countries and incorporated them into the Roman Empire.

Dan. 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

This is Antiochus Epiphanes. He spoke peaceable words, then suddenly destroyed many people in Israel

1 Maccabees 1:30 Deceitfully he spoke PEACEABLE words to them, and they believed him; but he suddenly fell upon the city, dealt it a severe blow, and destroyed many people of Israel.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Daniel 11:44 But reports from the east and the north will alarm him, and he will set out in a great rage to destroy and annihilate many

In the Biblical account, Herod the great was troubled by news from the east and then killed many children 2 years and under
.

I remember someone saying that the dragon in Revelation could be symbolizing a type of Herod [or anyone standing against Jesus].
I don't remember which thread it was on......It is an interesting view.......

The Herodians are mentioned in the Gospels:

Mar 3:6 Then the Pharisees went out and immediately plotted with the Herodians against Him, how they might destroy Him
Mar 12:13
Then they sent to Him some of the Pharisees and the Herodians, to catch Him in His words.

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth<5088> a Son, a male,
Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in iron rod/staff.

Revelation 12:13
Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[fn]

Who Were the Herodians?

The Herodians derived their name as followers of King Herod. The Herodians were a political party that wanted to restore a Herod to the throne in Judea as well as other areas ruled by Herod the Great. They were political foes of the Pharisees who wished to restore the kingdom of David.

They Are Mentioned With The Pharisees

We only find them being mentioned three times in the gospels and always in conjunction with the Pharisees. Although politically opposed to the Pharisees they participated with them in the persecution of Jesus. After Jesus broke their interpretation of the Sabbath, they plotted to kill Him.

 

[claninja]

The phrase "time of the end" only occurs in 5 verses of the Bible, all in Daniel.

Dan 8:17
So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”
Dan 11:
35 “And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time. [Followers of Christ/Disciples/Saints?]
40 “At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through.
Dan 12:
4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

I find this really interesting

The angel tells Daniel that the time of the end would occur when Greek Kingdoms were no longer a major world power, but when the world power would transition to the Roman empire. the time of the end seems to lead up to the death of herod, which is when Christ was born.

Daniel 11:40 At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle
Daniel 11:45 And he shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain. Yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him.

The new testament seems to agree with this, as the author of Hebrews states Jesus appeared at the 'consummation of the ages' in other words, time of the end.
Hebrews 9:26 But he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself

Jesus also mentions the judgment at the 'consummation of the age'
Matthew 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the consummation of the age


Jesus even goes on to seemingly "quote" from Daniel 12 in regards to the end of the age.
matthew 13:43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above;a and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever

Another interesting tidbit: there are the 2 gaps in Daniel 11-12.

the time from Antiochus Epiphans until Herod (Hasmonean dynasty: 70-80 years)

The time of Jesus birth until the destruction of Jerusalem (Jesus life and great commission: 70 years).

 

[claninja]

I remember someone saying that the dragon in Revelation could be symbolizing a type of Herod [or anyone standing against Jesus].
I don't remember which thread it was on......It is an interesting view.......

The Herodians are mentioned in the Gospels:

Mar 3:6 Then the Pharisees went out and immediately plotted with the Herodians against Him, how they might destroy Him
Mar 12:13
Then they sent to Him some of the Pharisees and the Herodians, to catch Him in His words.

Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth<5088> a Son, a male,
Who is about to be shepherding<4165> all the nations in iron rod/staff.

Revelation 12:13
Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[fn]

Who Were the Herodians?

The Herodians derived their name as followers of King Herod. The Herodians were a political party that wanted to restore a Herod to the throne in Judea as well as other areas ruled by Herod the Great. They were political foes of the Pharisees who wished to restore the kingdom of David.

They Are Mentioned With The Pharisees

We only find them being mentioned three times in the gospels and always in conjunction with the Pharisees. Although politically opposed to the Pharisees they participated with them in the persecution of Jesus. After Jesus broke their interpretation of the Sabbath, they plotted to kill Him.

There were 5 herods who had ruled Judea by time of the Jewish Roman war: herod the great, Herod Archelaus, herod antipas, herod Agrippa I, and herod Agrippa II. In 66ad, Herod Agrippa II was ejected from Jerusalem. During the Jewish Roman war, 3 leaders fought for control to rule/be king of Jerusalem: Simon bar Giora, Eleazar Ben Simon, and John of Giscala