Is Heaven like a totalitarian government?

[timewerx]

Democracy is better than the alternatives, barring a "perfect being", which I don't believe in.

I'm honestly not sure democracy is the best possible system.

There is more to democracy than meets the eye. Grossly misinformed masses choosing their leaders is just the small part of the story.

The more diabolical plot is that short-listed candidates all have very similar agendas and whatever their campaign platforms (promises) are whether they fulfill it or not, if elected all have very similar outcome at the conclusion of their terms.

Short-listing and approval of candidates is not just through paper works (legal aspect). The mass-media also plays a big, if not the biggest role in cementing the legitimacy of the candidates in the people's minds (mental aspect).

And with mass media, unspoken rules can used to short-list (at least mentally in the minds on the masses) candidates to vote. These rules can be dictated by the fraternal brotherhood of the candidates, alma mater, and personal / collective agendas of other candidates and currently seated politicians.

My point is, all short-listed candidates (legally by paper works and mentally by mass media) will posses very similar agendas underneath their platforms so whoever you vote, won't change a thing.

The main difference against dictatorship is you're instead dealing with more than one person with same agendas instead of one person. And instead of dealing with blood/family lines in dictatorships, you deal with fraternal brotherhood and political cartels instead in democracy. Ironically, it's a very similar thing in concept.

And in democracy, you are given the illusion of freedom and control over your country's destiny. But it's only an illusion. You still have no control just like in dictatorship. Perhaps the only "positive" thing about democracy is you're not being intimidated or threatened by your leaders to cooperate but being fooled instead to cooperate. Deceived or fooled can be better at least you're not afraid and otherwise, stressed by it. Unfortunately, in many democratic countries, the poor or the most vulnerable in the society are still often unjustifiably oppressed by the system.

 

[VCR-2000]

Freedom as most people sees it is fantastical and unrealistic.

It has resulted to some extremely preposterous policies and laws like those concerning gender identification for example.

The reality is that freedom is a rather dark concept. Some of the choices are deadly and worse, we have an enemy deceiving everyone to make the deadly choices. It leaves only few people making the right choices.

I don't believe freedom in itself is a dark concept, it is a benevolent one, just the way some people use it is dark, it's a tool like technology. It can be used for both good and bad.

Would you rather have freedom but with the darker elements removed, or have somebody telling you "do this, don't do that" and needing approval of all of your choices in life, either here or the next life?

 

[timewerx]

Would you rather have freedom but with the darker elements removed

I would rather have that if only can be made real.

What we have now is nothing more than an illusion. A reality you are made to accept by making sure it's the only thing you see everywhere you look.

 

[HTacianas]

You are right. We don't have complete freedom in the US or other countries on this planet either, even though our founders did try. I feel like God is not necessarily any more about being free than anyone here. Part of my point was about the founders, they and the other settlers from Europe came here because they wanted to be more or less free from the restrictions of the Kings on expression and speech, including to dissent, and the right to bear arms for self-defense and protecting liberties. The thing is, that sounds more like a deviation from the Biblical God's attitude to me.

You are on the point. The earliest settlers in the US were escaping the religious persecutions of Europe. But that leads to the point of your question, in that just who was persecuting whom? In the theocracy of God there are laws for the secular good, theft, murder, etc., but also for the spiritual or religious good like blasphemy and heresy. One man's escapee from religious persecution is another man's heretic.

 

[timothyu]

People love to have their own thoughts about what a book, song or even invention is about or for, when the simplest solution is to ask it's creator. That also is the concept behind God.

 

[Blade]

Rom 1 talks about those that do not believe yet God has made Himself known to them. Anyone that does not believe will not see nor understand. That being said this life is as if a child saw heaven and then tried to draw it. Irony is not knowing one is a slave to sin blinded by only what we see hear and feel and believe this is all there is. He said that word will look like foolishness to those that do not believe. They are blinded. Again Rom 1. I like what a Rapper NF said in Oh Lord.

"It's easy to blame God but harder to fix things
We look in the sky like, "why ain't You listening?"
Watching the news in our living rooms on the big screens
And talking 'bout "if God's really real, then where is He?"
You see the same God that you saying might not even exist
Becomes real to us, but only when we dying in bed
When ya healthy it's like, we don't really care for Him then
Leave me alone God, I'll call you when I need you again
Which is funny, everyone will sleep in the pews
Then blame God for our problems like He sleeping on you
We turn our backs on Him, what do you expect Him to do?
It's hard to answer prayers when nobody's praying to you
I look around at this world we walk on
It's a smack in the face, don't ever tell me there's no God
And if there isn't then what are we here for?
And what are y'all doing down there? I don't know Lord"

 

[Whyayeman]

We don't have complete freedom in the US or other countries on this planet

Of course not. What we have is freedom under the law. Hence the retort by people being hindered: 'There is no law against it'.

We are not totally free because we are limited by other people's freedoms.

The earliest settlers in the US were escaping the religious persecutions of Europe.

Only partly true. Some of the first Europeans to in America went as slaves. After the English Civil War Cromwell had Scottish prisoners of war in the counter-revolution shipped to America. They were sold to Puritan settlers.

 

[FireDragon76]

I've read some christian posters on this forum express the opinion that heaven is no dictatorship because everyone getting into heaven has their personality rebuilt until they are happy with all their non-christian friends getting tortured in hell and with doing nothing for eternity but praising god (which they then proceed to do for the rest of eternity).

If that's true, then the person the believer is now, is not necessarily the same as the person that gets into heaven, because to be "rebuilt" implies change.

 

[VCR-2000]

It is frustrating to me that despite God not liking this stuff, he allowed it to transpire in the first place.

 

[VCR-2000]

I would rather have that if only can be made real.

What we have now is nothing more than an illusion. A reality you are made to accept by making sure it's the only thing you see everywhere you look.

I think God's own standards would make the Medieval Catholic Empire look like a libertine progressive social justice warrior nation. Make of that what you will...

 

[Nithavela]

If that's true, then the person the believer is now, is not necessarily the same as the person that gets into heaven, because to be "rebuilt" implies change.

Yes, that would be my interpretation as well.

Makes you wonder if there's salvation from salvation.

 

[Whyayeman]

Well, I won't be there...

 

[oikonomia]

This is mostly about the context of his rule in Heaven, but sometimes God sounds like the ultimate dictator.

We should realize the ultimate destiny of the saved is "a new heaven and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:13; Rev. 21:1)

The capital or center of this new universe is a living entity called New Jerusalem. It is the mingling of God's life with man's life for an eternal enjoyment and expression of man living a blended life with God.

Believers are in a foretaste of what will be a fuller and fullest taste of this. God living and flowing from within man is a thirst quenching enjoyment. Take two passages:

1.) "Now in the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes into Me, as the Scriptures said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water. But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive, for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified." (John 7:37-39)

This is the thirst quenching flowing of the Spirit of Christ as many rivers to refresh, make alive, and quench man's thirst for enjoyment, meaning, divine life. Think of a river for the mind, a river for the emotions, a river for the will - many rivers of the Spirit for all the inner parts of our entire being.

This is somewhat individual. Now let's get a gimpse of the "city" New Jerusalem in eternity future in the new heaven and new earth. This is more corporate involving the billions who are there.

2.) "And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the thrtone of God and of the Lamb in the middle of its street. And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations." (Rev. 22:1,2)

The throne is the seat of government. The throne is the place of God's administration over His saved people. Out of the throne is pouring the Spirit as living water bright as crystal. This is a highly symbolic picture. And if you put this picture together with John 7:39 you should see that the throne of the Triune God is installed into the innermost being of all the constituents of the city. John 7:37-39 focuses on each individual. Revelation 22:1-3 focues on the collective of all the humans who believed into Christ.

The flowing of living water in each person is to become the flowing of the river of life by which God adminstrates and governs the entire holy city of New Jeruslem. The flowing of the river in the middle of the street (the ONE street) shows ALL WALK by the divine life dispensed into them by God. This should be our rule today as a foretaste. And this is the consummation toward which all believers are headed.

The singular "throne" is of God and of the Lamb - the Redeemer Jesus the Son of God and the Father within Him. It is not two thrones but "the [singular] throne of God and of the Lamb." The Holy Spirit as the crystal clear flowing river is the life by which we walk. So the Triune God - Father and Son and Holy Spirit are seen in this picture of Revelation 22:1,2.

God reigns by satisfaction and thirst quenching.
God adminstrates by supplying and spontaneous flowing out of His grace from within us.
God reigns by pouring grace out from the seat of His administration which is now in the innermost being of all the participants in the holy city New Jerusalem.

Another good passage showing God reigns by satisfying us with divine life is in Revelation 7:15-17. The Lamb reigns by leading us to eternal satisfaction and thirst quenching and hunger fulfilling.

" . . . they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits upon the throne will tabernacle over them. They will not hunger anymore, neither will they thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat upon them nor any heat;

For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and guide them to springs of waters of life; and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes." (Rev. 7:15-17)

Here again it is the Spirit of God quenching man's thrist, fulfilling his hunger. I believe the fountains are internal fountains springing up the Spirit of God from within as in John 4:13,14.

"Jesus answered and said to her, Everyone who drinks of this water shall thirst again, But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into eternal life." (John 7:13,14)

God reigns and will reign from within with the supply and satisfaction of His life springing up, saturating, filling, and flowing out of the saved ones' innermost spiritual being.

 

[the Vital One]

This is mostly about the context of his rule in Heaven, but sometimes God sounds like the ultimate dictator. He prohibits a lot of things in the Bible, some make sense, others are so seemingly arbitrary or don't take into account other issues because all sin is the same and punished the same way. The punishment isn't necessarily about supporting immoral things like murder and kinds of depravity. You can oppose and be angry about things like abortion, etc. but still go to Hell.

Back to the dictator analogy, in many countries with such a system, if you submit to the system, you live and are even rewarded, if you dissent you are punished and or killed. It sounds like it is similar in the afterlife. And God wants to make things only about Him - we don't get any input at all about our lives here or after we die.

But how is this a God that wants his people to have complete freedom?

Heaven will be different from Earth, so an exact parallel between human and divine governance is impossible.

There won't be injustice, disease, famine, competition for resources, war or death in Heaven. Those are problems governments have to deal with on Earth that won't be issues in Heaven. We have no hope of defeating these problems here, but that doesn't stop false prophets from claiming they will.

One of the core tenets of the Christian faith is that this world is not where the kingdom is. Heaven is. We have completely forgotten that in our modern society and we need to bring that back to the forefront.

 

[Lost Witness]

It's more like living under a benevolent dictator.

 

[timothyu]

One of the core tenets of the Christian faith is that this world is not where the kingdom is. Heaven is. We have completely forgotten that in our modern society and we need to bring that back to the forefront.

The new Kingdom comes down from Heaven, once the world is no more.
But I'll bet the military-industrial complex has already made plans to be the powerhouse for God's army lol

 

[Bobber]

Back to the dictator analogy, in many countries with such a system, if you submit to the system, you live and are even rewarded, if you dissent you are punished and or killed. It sounds like it is similar in the afterlife. And God wants to make things only about Him - we don't get any input at all about our lives here or after we die.

But how is this a God that wants his people to have complete freedom?

Good questions. You must understand something about the universe God insists must be. Absolute LOVE. Not just partial LOVE but love absolute. It's a realm of zero darkness. Absolute Love goes a certain direction. Outputting, giving, loving not the opposite of those things. This might help. I call it the cycle of LIFE. We see it in the universe about us in the things God has created. Consider beautiful flowers. It could be said they are demanding. They demand that to them you be a giver. You must impart to them light, water and other things but everything they take they give it all back in beauty and fragrance to the world. That is a cycle. Giving and receiving, giving and receiving, giving and receiving and it's a wonderful beutiful thing of interaction. That's what LOVE is. Some in marriage relationships say they'll give 50/50 to each other....that's fair. Nope. You give 100/100 percent such is true LOVE. It may seem that God is egotistical but that couldn't be true if he's the only one who could head up such a kingdom. It would mean he was the only one capable of putting it together and sustaining it. Now in giving all you find YOUR life and that's what Jesus said too.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. Matt 16:25

 

[doubtingmerle]

This is mostly about the context of his rule in Heaven, but sometimes God sounds like the ultimate dictator. He prohibits a lot of things in the Bible, some make sense, others are so seemingly arbitrary or don't take into account other issues because all sin is the same and punished the same way. The punishment isn't necessarily about supporting immoral things like murder and kinds of depravity. You can oppose and be angry about things like abortion, etc. but still go to Hell.

Back to the dictator analogy, in many countries with such a system, if you submit to the system, you live and are even rewarded, if you dissent you are punished and or killed. It sounds like it is similar in the afterlife. And God wants to make things only about Him - we don't get any input at all about our lives here or after we die.

But how is this a God that wants his people to have complete freedom?

A benevolent socialist dictatorship. Free health care, free housing, free food, free everything.

It's odd that those who hate socialism long to go to a socialist utopia.

 

[doubtingmerle]

You must understand something about the universe God insists must be. Absolute LOVE. Not just partial LOVE but love absolute. It's a realm of zero darkness. Absolute Love goes a certain direction. Outputting, giving, loving not the opposite of those things.

Does absolute love drown all the children in the world in a global flood, except for one family?

Does absolute love kill a man for reaching out to steady the Ark of the Covenant?

See Evangelical Pastor Will Cunningham Tells Me He's Confident Jesus Loves Bruce and Polly

 

[Sheila Davis]

This is mostly about the context of his rule in Heaven, but sometimes God sounds like the ultimate dictator. He prohibits a lot of things in the Bible, some make sense, others are so seemingly arbitrary or don't take into account other issues because all sin is the same and punished the same way. The punishment isn't necessarily about supporting immoral things like murder and kinds of depravity. You can oppose and be angry about things like abortion, etc. but still go to Hell.

Back to the dictator analogy, in many countries with such a system, if you submit to the system, you live and are even rewarded, if you dissent you are punished and or killed. It sounds like it is similar in the afterlife. And God wants to make things only about Him - we don't get any input at all about our lives here or after we die.

But how is this a God that wants his people to have complete freedom?

One should not equate how life in heaven is to earth.
The rules set for earth is in play because of the sinful nature of mankind. God does not want that type of nature in his kingdom. So he judges from the actions/works/faith of all.

There is only 2 places the spirits in man can live on earth or in heaven - earth will be destroyed, it has been cursed. So that only leaves heaven but if one is not obedient and believing - one is not welcome in heaven. Where does that rebellious spirit go _ to Destruction in what is called hell's fire.
Everything to believers is about God - without him there would be nothing.
Very few actual dictators (only one I have heard of) reward their subjects nor offer love, peace, harmony in their kingdoms.