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Is God's love unconditional?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by MostRadicalManEver, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is an excellent response to that:

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  2. discipler7

    discipler7 Well-Known Member

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    The confusion about God's love probably arose because many Christians do not understand which sin they are being saved from, ie is it their outer sins/evil-deeds or their inner/inborn Adam's Original Sin(ROMANS.5:12).?

    There is a huge difference between the former sin which is voluntary, eg murder, adultery, blasphemy, stealing, lying/cheating, etc, and the latter sin which is involuntary, eg immoral lust, hate, anger, greed, selfishness, jealousy and baseless fears/worries, doubts, etc.
    ... The Lord Jesus Christ came down to earth to save "sinners" from the latter sin, ie their inherited and inborn Adam's Original Sin, because "sinners" could not be without involuntary evil/sinful/satanic thoughts in their hearts and minds, try as they may = they cannot be saved from hell without Jesus = believing "sinners" will not be sent to hell when they die.(REVELATION.21:6-8)

    Those who voluntarily commit the former sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking will be cursed by God with a sad and short life on earth.(DEUT.28:15, 1COR.11:30, 1JOHN.5:16)

    So, the worst eventuality for earthlings is to voluntarily and unrepentantly commit sins/evil-deeds/law-breaking and reject Jesus as their Christ/Messiah/Saviour, and vice versa.
    ... IOW, God would love all earthlings to voluntarily keep His Law, repent if they had sinned/done evil, "go and sin no more" and believe in His Son, Jesus Christ.(for Gentile Christians, they only have to keep the non-burdensome parts of Moses Law, as per ACTS.15:24-29)
    .
    .

    GALATIANS.5: =
    11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off!

    13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!

    MATTHEW.5:43 = ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  3. discipler7

    discipler7 Well-Known Member

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  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    There are no conditions for God's Love.
    But you are required to accept His love.
    for you to gain the benefits.

    Not like on earth were the sun shines
    even on sinners.
     
  5. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    God said: "And I will cause them to eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters...." (Jer 19:9)

    "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thes 2:11-12) "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has shewed it unto them....And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; being filled with all unrighteousness...who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." (Rom 1:18-19, 28-9, 32--the whole passage is worth copying, I am trying to avoid retyping it all). "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly; and delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked....The Lord knows how to deliver the ungodly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished. (2 Pet 2:4-9) "For this they willingly are ignorant of that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water; whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished; But, the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men...But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hastening unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness." (2 Pet 3:5-7,10-13) "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever...and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:10, 14-15) "And still he holds his integrity, although you moved Me against him, to destroy him without cause." (Job 1:3)

    So the real question is what would YOU do, if you found out that the God literally described in Scriptures is the real God? You see, I believe in Him and love Him without having to write off anything He says or attributes to Himself, because I know He is God and I am not. I may not understand, but He tells me why. (Isa 55) Often people that can't accept what God says about Himself in Scripture are also the ones who say arrogant things like: "I wouldn't follow a God like that." So, what would you do, if the Words of Scripture are True?
     
  6. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    How is that not a condition--not a pre-condition, but a post-condition? "Believe" described in Scripture is more than a simple acceptance of God's love. And we are told "even the demons believe, and they tremble..."
     
  7. discipler7

    discipler7 Well-Known Member

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    ROMANS.1 = 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. ...

    24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
     
  8. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    In reference to the verse in Jeremiah about the eating of flesh of sons and daughters I'd asked this question : "Certainly--by asking that question-- you aren't suggesting that's descriptive of God's ways (the eating the flesh of their sons are daughters, I mean)?

    And this is your response (highlighting "wrath of God" and "deserving of death" in red)? Did you happen to read the other words?

    You're helping me illustrate my point that people can read biblical text and see one god (an angry destructive murderous and vengeful god) and completely miss the loving, compassionate, merciful, healing God that desires salvation for all (and is victorious enough to achieve it).

    It's like this illusion (some see a young woman....others see an old wretched woman). They are both there.

    [​IMG]
    Your response doesn't answer my question, though. I'd said that passage was an example of God giving them over to their OWN lusts....and that is there in the text you quoted...yet you highlighted words that emphasize God's wrath pieced that together with "deserving of death" (so I don't know if you're reading that and attributing the eating of flesh of sons and daughters to God and His ways?). Are you? Do you believe that text is support for a god like that--one that eats the flesh of his own children? Is that how you believe God deals with psychopathic children murderers? He becomes one Himself? Does that solve the problem (in your mind)?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
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  9. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

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    It’s difficult for people to envision God being more loving than they
    themselves are capable of. That’s likely why notions of hell and/or
    annihilation, coupled with attributing to God the fickle, flighty pseudo-
    love more often associated with a peevish mother-in-law seems to
    be all the rage in churchdom.

    I mean, yes, there are some verses and passages in the bible that are
    virtually indistinguishable from that which could serve as inspiration for
    some radical Islamic jihad-fest, but at the end of the day those passages
    are penned by humans, projecting their own human shortcomings onto
    Divinity. I find it useful to not lose sight of that.

    Any religion that puts forth a Savior needs to go big or go home, otherwise
    it’s virtually indistinguishable from, say, Islam or Zoroastrianism. If I wanted to
    worry about a hell or annihilation, or about a fickle demigod, I could go
    elsewhere.

    Surely Jesus was a game-changer, no?



    -
     
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  10. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    But look... perhaps there’s more to this climactic end than meets the “eye”...

    Song of Songs 8:6 (HCSB)

    “Set me as a seal on your heart, as a seal on your arm. For love is as strong as death; ardent love is as unrelenting as Sheol. Love's flames are fiery flames-- the fiercest of all“
     
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  11. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Fire and brimstone is a fascinating study (I think). The meaning has been completely twisted and distorted from its original intent.

    Quoted from Bibleforums:
    That the lake of fire purifies sinners via destroying sin is evident when one takes into account the lexical range of the Greek words theion (sulfur/brimstone) and basanizos (torment) as well as considering the imagery of divine fire which, throughout the Bible, has purificatory connotations (see Psalms 12:6; Zechariah 13:9; Malachi 3:2; and Matthew 3:12)

    The primary meaning of noun, theion
    Thayer's gives this: "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off disease"

    ..that coupled with the verse in Hebrews that states: "our God is a consuming fire"...and passages that have fire to mean the presence of God turns a lot of modern beliefs right-side up again.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
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  12. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    The words of Scripture ARE true....but they must be filtered through what the Word demonstrated when He emptied Himself and became flesh for OUR sake.

    This is one the reasons I believe all will have a chance to be shown God's glory (apart from sin)....and that our future isn't dependant upon the words and interpretations of fellow humans. I believe Him when He says He's reconciling all of creation to Himself.
     
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  13. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Interesting how you quoted that. Is that the message you took home and live by?
     
  14. Rajni

    Rajni ☯ Ego ad Eum pertinent ☯ Supporter

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    I'm a bit surprised you isolated that phrase.

    Here's the full context, in Matthew 5:43-48:

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate
    your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who
    persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He
    causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the
    righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what
    reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if
    you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others?
    Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly
    Father is perfect."

    -



    -
     
  15. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  16. Johnny4ChristJesus

    Johnny4ChristJesus Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The problem is your are "filtering" through your interpretation--which includes writing off hard words that Jesus Christ Himself said and writing off words that God spoke about Himself in the Old Testament. You aren't filtering through REAL The Word of God, Jesus Christ, when you eliminate the things you don't like that God says about Himself--simply because it doesn't fit into what you want to believe about Him.

    And, if God is truly God, He can do whatever He deems is right. I will love my God, if He chooses to give life to everyone. And, I will love my God if He does what He said in Scripture. He is my God either way. My question to you, that you failed to answer, is IF God doesn't save everyone, can you live with that?
     
  17. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    What are you presuming I'm eliminating?
     
  18. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    Yes....but can YOU dare to hope ALL will be saved?
     
  19. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    I'm pretty certain everyone does that.

    The thing is: the overall framework I believe all Scripture has to fit within is God's divine love (what Jesus demonstrated). Before I changed to this paradigm, that was when parts of the Bible needed to be ignored (which kept me unsettled). Now I have peace.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  20. Grip Docility

    Grip Docility Well-Known Member

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    After all... because God is our Creator and Purchased all of us with His blood... (1 John 2:2; Hebrews 2:8; Hebrews 2:9) and seeing that His hope is that all will “come to repentance”... I find it odd that people claim to know God, yet adamantly preach against His very “Desire” (2 Peter 3:9).

    Well spoken and fully agreed.

    <3
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
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