Is God Unjust to Save Some?

[Tree of Life]

Which gospel is that quote in I’m having trouble finding it.

The Parable of the Soils can be found in Matthew 13. In John 6, among other places, Jesus says that no one can come to him unless the Father draws them.

 

[Tree of Life]

What are your thoughts on post#64?

Looks like a few dictionary entries.

 

[BNR32FAN]

He is a Good Shepherd. He loses no sheep. Thankfully. You should rest on that.

John 10:27 His sheep hear and follow present tense. You’ll never find scriptures indicating that anyone who believed past tense is currently saved. In an alike manner John 6:37 also implies a continuing cooperative submission to God’s will. The word come and comes in John 6:37 are two different Greek words. Come (G2240) is your standard definition but comes (G2064) is only used in the present tense.


“All that the Father gives Me will come (G2240) to Me, and the one who comes (G2064) to Me I will certainly not cast out.”


John 6:37 NASB



Come



G2240



Lemma:


ἥκω



Transliteration:


hḗkō



Pronounce:


hay'-ko



Part of Speech:


Verb



Language:


greek



Description:


1) to have come, have arrived, be present


2) metaph. a) to come to one, i.e. to seek an intimacy with one, become his follower: to come upon one (unexpectedly) b) to come upon one, of things endured



Comes/Cometh



G2064



Lemma:


ἔρχομαι



Transliteration:


érchomai



Pronounce:


el'-tho



Part of Speech:


Verb



Language:


greek



Description:


1) to come a) of persons


1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning


2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the public


2) metaph. a) to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence b) be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto


3) to go, to follow one



Grammar:


middle voice of a primary verb (used only in the present and imperfect tenses, the others being supplied by a kindred (middle voice) , or (active) , which do not otherwise occur); to come or go (in a great variety of applications, literally and figuratively):--accompany, appear, bring, come, enter, fall out, go, grow, X light, X next, pass, resort, be set.


So this doesn’t mean anyone who has ever came I will certainly not cast out it means anyone who presently comes I will certainly not cast out. Now before you quote verses 38-40 let me go ahead and address it. When you see the term “God’s will” it doesn’t always mean something God has made to be. It can also mean something God desires. The word “will is translated from the Greek word thélēma which means


will



G2307



Lemma:


θέλημα



Transliteration:


thélēma



Pronounce:


thel'-ay-mah



Part of Speech:


Noun Neuter



Language:


greek



Description:


1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ b) of what God wishes to be done by us


1) commands, precepts


2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure


We see this same word in 1 Timothy 2:3-4


“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires (G2703) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”

1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Parable of the Soils can be found in Matthew 13. In John 6, among other places, Jesus says that no one can come to him unless the Father draws them.

But no one can come to saving faith unless they are chosen and enabled by God.

I don’t see this quote in either of these gospels.

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Jesus has been resurrected and God is calling all men which is the point of the great commission to spread the gospel to the whole world. Not only to a elect group my friend.

 

[BBAS 64]

I don’t see this quote in either of these gospels.

“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Jesus has been resurrected and God is calling all men which is the point of the great commission to spread the gospel to the whole world. Not only to a elect group my friend.

Good Day, BNR32

Nothing to do with the drawing of the Father in John 6. Jesus tells us why he says that next verse totally unrelated to mans inability to come John 6, but his kind of death..

Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Your context is off.

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

The “you” and “any” are the elect referred to in chapter 1.

Good Day,

Just to add contextual exegesis:

In Him,

Bill

 

[Strong in Him]

John 10.

Doesn't say that in my Bible - nothing about pre-selection and being destined not to believe.

 

[Hawkins]

I'm inspired by George Whitfield in this thread. John Wesley preached against Whitefield's Calvinism (although they were dearly beloved friends). Wesley said that God would be unjust if he sovereignly chose to save only some and sovereignly chose to condemn others to hell. Here is how Whitfield responded:

Would God have been unjust to pass over every sinner and save none? If God is not unjust by saving none, then surely he is not unjust to mercifully save some while passing over others.

What do you say? Is God unjust to save some?

The justification lies on who can be saved legitimately by Jesus' crucifixion. You need to deliver the answer from the Bible. God is the God of the living, He's not the God of the dead. Salvation as reflected by what is said by our Bible, only a selected few (the Elect) will be saved (through the narrow gate). The New Covenant is a covenant to save by faith, it's not aimed to save all with or without faith!

That said. A covenant is used in the final judgment to identify openly who will be saved or not. If God Himself can't stick to His own Law and covenants in terms of judgment but have to save everyone against His own Law and covenant, it not only means that God can't be a just God but also means that God's realm is not a lawful realm.

An analogy is, if the mayor of your city can always bypass Law to grant pardons at will to any criminals, then it only means that your mayor cannot be objectively just (i.e., stick to laws) and your city can only be a lawless realm (because everything is determined by your mayor's will instead of laws).

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good Day, BNR32

Nothing to do with the drawing of the Father in John 6. Jesus tells us why he says that next verse totally unrelated to mans inability to come John 6, but his kind of death..

Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

In Him,

Bill

Indeed it was my friend but it doesn’t imply that He will not draw all men to Him.

 

[Hawkins]

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NRSV)
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.

The above verse also hints the justification. The Son of God may need to be crucified over again to justify the salvation of the unsavable.

 

[BBAS 64]

Indeed it was my friend but it doesn’t imply that He will not draw all men to Him.

Good Day,BNR32

The text does not infer it, so any attempt to make such a presumption is based on silence.

We do know that the Father draws to overcome the inability of man to come, also we do know that the Father gives and the direct result of that action is the coming. That would be sufficient positive affirmation as to the drawing by the Father, and it's effect, so trying to build truth on silence is not very useful here.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NRSV)
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,
and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt.

The above verse also hints the justification. The Son of God may need to be crucified over again to justify the salvation of the unsavable.

Good Day, Hawkins

Hebrews Chapter 6 I have a thread for that:

Hebrews 6 - DA Carson


You may find that helpful.

 

[Hammster]

John 10:27 His sheep hear and follow present tense. You’ll never find scriptures indicating that anyone who believed past tense is currently saved.

I know, because that’s not even an option. Sheep will always be sheep.

 

[Hammster]

Doesn't say that in my Bible - nothing about pre-selection and being destined not to believe.

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Scripture doesn’t say that some are destined to not believe. Just that some are His and some aren’t. So I’m John 10 we see that He dies for the sheep (not potential sheep) and that His sheep hear His voice (faith comes by hearing).

I’ll expound further if necessary.

 

[BBAS 64]

Which means they are all His children.

Good Day, Grasping

I would disagree we are all his creation as he creates both sheep (vessels for honor) and Goats (vessels for dishonor).

John 8 is clear God is not everybody's Father... even though he is their creator.

In Him

Bill

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good Day,

Just to add contextual exegesis:

In Him,

Bill

And 1 Timothy 2:3-4?

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬

Nothing about the elect here.

 

[bling]

Everyone wants eternal life. Sinners simply hate the God that they'd be worshipping for eternity! We'd be happy to have an eternal life full of God's blessings so long as God stays out of the picture.

The Bible teaches that a person can only want God if God graciously regenerates their hearts. God only does this for some.

Jesus teaches us Luke 7 "...he that is forgiven much Loves much..." I am not saying the sinner "wants God" but the sinner can for selfish reasons be just willing to accept God (his enemy's pure charity). The willingness to humbly accept the charity of God's forgiveness results in being forgiven of a unbelievable huge debt created by sin which will result in a unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love) and then the person will Love God (want God).

 

[BBAS 64]

And 1 Timothy 2:3-4?

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬

Nothing about the elect here.

Good Day, BNR32fan

Nope there is not nor would one expect it...

ISA 46:10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose.


James White covers 1 Timothy in context here:

1Ti 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

Did Jesus offer his self a ransom (purpose) for all with out distiction, and the ransom of himself was uneffective to ransom most?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Strong in Him]

Sorry, I should have been clearer. Scripture doesn’t say that some are destined to not believe. Just that some are His and some aren’t. So I’m John 10 we see that He dies for the sheep (not potential sheep) and that His sheep hear His voice (faith comes by hearing).

Those who believe and have received Jesus are his sheep. Those who haven't, aren't - yet, but there is nothing to say that they can't later become his sheep. Not all WILL; but the potential is there.
Isaiah said, "we all, like sheep, have gone astray."
The NT says that ALL are sinners and that Christ died for sinners.

Or are you saying that God has decided that some sinners are never going to be allowed to repent, or were created by a loving God, in his image, just to spend eternity without him?
Sorry, but that's not the God that I see revealed in Scripture, or in Jesus.

 

[bling]

I'm inspired by George Whitfield in this thread. John Wesley preached against Whitefield's Calvinism (although they were dearly beloved friends). Wesley said that God would be unjust if he sovereignly chose to save only some and sovereignly chose to condemn others to hell. Here is how Whitfield responded:

Would God have been unjust to pass over every sinner and save none? If God is not unjust by saving none, then surely he is not unjust to mercifully save some while passing over others.

What do you say? Is God unjust to save some?

OK I will address your OP.
If a rescuer could just as easily and safely rescue all the people in a burning house, but only saved a few we would consider that rescuer disgraceful and not being fair to those lost.

God is not a liar and told us through the prophets and the New Testament what we need to do for salvation (through faith accept God's undeserved charity), so if we humbly accept we will receive tons of wonderful gifts God has promised, so He could not just ignore His promises.

God is doing or allowing all He can to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective (everything includes: satan roaming the earth, Christ going to the cross, hell, death, tragedies of all kind, and sin to happen.) Those who refuse God's help/Charity to the point they will never accept it would not be happy in heaven, so God is not going to force them to go.