Is God responsible for sin, evil and suffering?

[CrystalDragon]

You are correct: God doesn't take pleasure or delight in cruelty. Anyone going to hell by rejecting Jesus brakes the heart of Father God.

But God is perfect and knows everything and determines everything. Why would anything have his heart break? With a human father I could understand, because he can't know what will happen in the future, doesn't know what his child will do, etc. God does.

 

[Larry Wilgus]

But God is perfect and knows everything and determines everything. Why would anything have his heart break? With a human father I could understand, because he can't know what will happen in the future, doesn't know what his child will do, etc. God does.

God's love for humanity is beyond the human heart of men to comprehend. He only has love for us as described in 1 Corinthians 13. His heart is broken by our sinfulness because He knows the destruction of sin in our lives. God doesn't know all the choices we will make because He gives us a free-will to obey or disobey. He knows the plans He designed for us, but honors our free will.

 

[CrystalDragon]

God's love for humanity is beyond the human heart of men to comprehend. He only has love for us as described in 1 Corinthians 13. His heart is broken by our sinfulness because He knows the destruction of sin in our lives. God doesn't know all the choices we will make because He gives us a free-will to obey or disobey. He knows the plans He designed for us, but honors our free will.

I wonder though if His love for humanity is beyond ours, why does Hell exist? Our human justice system seems far more humane (especially because some say people go to hell just for not believing).

And technically if God knows and determines everything and has a plan, we have no free will. We only like to tell ourselves we do because the alternative is uncomfortable to us.

 

[Larry Wilgus]

I wonder though if His love for humanity is beyond ours, why does Hell exist? Our human justice system seems far more humane (especially because some say people go to hell just for not believing).

And technically if God knows and determines everything and has a plan, we have no free will. We only like to tell ourselves we do because the alternative is uncomfortable to us.

Hell exists because sin entered the world. It wasn't God's plan for man when fallen angels created the need for outer darkness, judgement, and eternal destruction (Jude 6-7). Our human justice system - even though superior to other countries in the world, is corrupted and perverted by fallen men.

The Bible teaches all people who reject the sacrifice Jesus made for the redemption of men will go to hell (John 16:8).

 

[CrystalDragon]

Hell exists because sin entered the world. It wasn't God's plan for man when fallen angels created the need for outer darkness, judgement, and eternal destruction (Jude 6-7). Our human justice system - even though superior to other countries in the world, is corrupted and perverted by fallen men.

The Bible teaches all people who reject the sacrifice Jesus made for the redemption of men will go to hell (John 16:8).

But everything happens according to God's plan. So it must have ultimately been part of his will.

 

[Larry Wilgus]

But everything happens according to God's plan. So it must have ultimately been part of his will.

It wasn't God's plan for Adam & Eve to transgress. His foreknowledge knew about it, but He didn't create Adam & Eve to fail. Because He desires us to respond to him out of choice, He gave Adam & Eve free will, or else we would all be robots. Love is anchored in choices, not demands.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There's a flaw with the analogy: human parents have limits on what direction they can guide their children in life. God can easily do anything, like keeping the children from harm. Any parent who really loved their child would do what they could to save them. Why think that God would abandon, ignore, or torture them, and if that's the case at all why call God loving unless we redefine love?

Personally, I think God does 'love' us in a different way that what our limited, modern, democratically-washed minds can comprehend (Deuteronomy 29:29). And there are some things we don't understand about the reality God has created and in which we live, so we evaluate God by those things we think we do understand about our world. Unfortunately, we get it wrong and then we show up on a modern blog forum to gripe about how God has failed us and how we think He has been morally inconsistent...according to our modern, democratically washed assumptions about what we think social reality should be.

What is most funny to me is that in order to REALLY dis God on a moral level, we have to establish perfectly well the modern, secular notions of morality. The catch is that no one is actually establishing secular morality, nor can they. It just becomes assumed that it has already been established. But griping about God is free, so it happens anyway, a lot.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[Larry Wilgus]

It wasn't God's plan for Adam & Eve to transgress. His foreknowledge knew about it, but He didn't create Adam & Eve to fail. Because He desires us to respond to him out of choice, He gave Adam & Eve free will, or else we would all be robots. Love is anchored in choices, not demands.

His will is goodness and mercy will follow us and hunt us down all the days of our lives (Psalm 23:6)

 

[Larry Wilgus]

Personally, I think God does 'love' us in a different way that what our limited, modern, democratically-washed minds can comprehend (Deuteronomy 29:29). And there are some things we don't understand about the reality God has created and in which we live, so we evaluate God by those things we think we do understand about our world. Unfortunately, we get it wrong and then we show up on a modern blog forum to gripe about how God has failed us and how we think He has been morally inconsistent...according to our modern, democratically washed assumption about what we think social reality should be.

What is most funny to me is that in order to REALLY dis God on a moral level, we have to establish perfectly well the modern, secular notions of morality. The catch is that no one is actually establishing secular morality, nor can they. It just becomes assumed that it has already been established. But griping about God is free, so it happens anyway, a lot.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

You are correct: we can't evaluate God by what is happening in a world that is flawed and altered by sin. We evaluate God by revelation from His Word. When you live in His Word, you'll get a revelation of the truth, because truth gives no choice in freedom. Truth makes you free! John 8:32 "the truth that you know will make you free."

 

[Larry Wilgus]

But everything happens according to God's plan. So it must have ultimately been part of his will.

Sin, suffering, and evil were never part of God's plan. Anyone who subscribes to this grossly misunderstanding of God's goodness hasn't grasped a Biblical understanding of the gospel of Christ.

 

[Larry Wilgus]

Science says that even the fish came out of the water and started walking on dry land.....

No human being has to strive to be free from sin. We are to rest in what Jesus did for us, and that allows to be free from the dominance of sin.

 

[CrystalDragon]

Sin, suffering, and evil were never part of God's plan. Anyone who subscribes to this grossly misunderstanding of God's goodness hasn't grasped a Biblical understanding of the gospel of Christ.

But isn't it said that Jesus coming for redemption was God's plan from the beginning? So then the fall was part of the plan all along.

 

[Hillsage]

I'm blessed by everything you have posted until you said "Adam/Eve were never 'perfect.' Had they been so, they never would have sinned." Wow! How did God make anything that wasn't perfect before the fall? Sin resulted in instantaneous change and altered God's complete creation.

Larry welcome to CF Controversial Forum. A forum that is appropriately named, and a true blessing breaker at some point for all of us.

But let me explain a bit more. Bible says they were made in His image and they were 'after' His likeness. It doesn't say they were in the likeness of His character but should be pursuing after it. That was the very temptation the devil used to snare them; "Don't you know you WILL be LIKE God knowing good/evil? Well, no they didn't know 'that'. But God put in His first 2 children, like in all children with good parents, the 'desire' to be like daddy/mommy? And since they were created with 'that desire' they too simply acted like 'mature bodied' but 'spiritually immature' little children walking about in daddy's shoes, which are way too big, and saying "Look at me, I'm just LIKE daddy". And that's why the temptation and the 'bait of Satan' was so 'tempting'. A temptation which was also 'part true' as scripture confirms;

NAS GEN 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become LIKE one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" -

Now, you may say "one of Us" means spiritual beings and the serpent was one, but that isn't consistent with the creational God's, making of Adamic man. And AS GOD HE had full knowledge of the 'good and evil tree' which He created.

GEN 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to/after OUR LIKENESS.

Knowing 'good and evil' is actually still God's desire for all of us.

HEB 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their faculties trained by practice to distinguish good from evil.

"Distinguish by practice"????? So their motive was good, in desiring to be "like God knowing good/evil", but their 'practice' for coming to such knowledge, was not OF God, but of the serpent. The first Adam did it wrong, but the second Adam did it right. Jesus wasn't born perfect either, "He became perfect through the things that He suffered." "He grew in wisdom and stature/maturity with God."

And now, from your very own #99 post;

The reasoning behind the first covenant was to reveal our inability to conquer the dominance of sin - passed onto all humanity.

Now you may say 'our inability' only came after Adam and Eve sinned, but I'm going to stand with my scriptures above and say they certainly weren't PERFECT, or they wouldn't have sinned. I mean, for crying out loud, I resist tougher temptations, every day, than not eating an apple when every other food known was available. I'm sure you do too.

Anyway, now you have a fuller understanding of where I'm coming from scripturally and logically. So if you still feel 'unblessed' with my POV , please share with me your 'opinion', but don't do it without scripture....preferably more than I've supported my 'opinion' with. I'm open to new ideas.....Are you?

 

[Larry Wilgus]

But isn't it said that Jesus coming for redemption was God's plan from the beginning? So then the fall was part of the plan all along.

Why do you think failure is any part of God's goodness? He was forced to enact a plan when foreknowledge revealed man's weakness after transgression.

 

[Hillsage]

But God is supposed to be unchanging and transcends time.

I too agree with scripture and believe He is 'unchanging' but I limit that to only being in His ULTIMATE plan and goal for His creation. But I believe it obvious His 'ways/acts' have certainly changed.

PSA 103:7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.

We are no longer 'under' the ways/acts of the law of Moses. We are 'under' the ways/acts of Jesus. But wouldn't you agree that God's 'ways/acts' have certainly changed in that transition?

"neither do I condemn you 'like the law' go and sin no more"

Truly "a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."

 

[Larry Wilgus]

I too agree with scripture and believe He is 'unchanging' but I limit that to only being in His ULTIMATE plan and goal for His creation. But I believe it obvious His 'ways/acts' have certainly changed.

PSA 103:7 He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel.

We are no longer 'under' the ways/acts of the law of Moses. We are 'under' the ways/acts of Jesus. But wouldn't you agree that God's 'ways/acts' have certainly changed in that transition?

"neither do I condemn you 'like the law' go and sin no more"

Truly "a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."

I agree that God's ways/acts have changed when all sin of the world was imputed to Jesus, thereby leaving an continual open invitation on His part to bring us into fellowship with Him.

 

[Hillsage]

You are correct: God doesn't take pleasure or delight in cruelty. Anyone going to hell by rejecting Jesus brakes the heart of Father God.

I don't think an OMNISCIENT God could 'create' anything that would 'break his heart'. He created everything...knowing everything first, right? So if His heart was going to break it should have broke before He ever created anything. But, I would agree with you 100%, that if the doctrine of ETERNAL HELL is true it should break His omniscient heart.

EDIT; This thread is moving too fast. I just caught up to where Crystal Dragon just made this very same point....Go GIRL.

 

[Hillsage]

It wasn't God's plan for Adam & Eve to transgress. His foreknowledge knew about it, but He didn't create Adam & Eve to fail. Because He desires us to respond to him out of choice, He gave Adam & Eve free will, or else we would all be robots. Love is anchored in choices, not demands.

But earlier you say;

God doesn't know all the choices we will make

So, you don't believe in the "omniscience" of God? OK. Well, you certainly qualified being in this CONTROVERSIAL FORUM then, that's for sure.

But when you also post that you believe in His 'foreknowledge'???? Here's what I believe; One of us is confused.

 

[Hillsage]

Sin, suffering, and evil were never part of God's plan. Anyone who subscribes to this grossly misunderstanding of God's goodness hasn't grasped a Biblical understanding of the gospel of Christ.

Here's what I've grasped from scripture and fits my understanding.

JER 18:11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: 'Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping evil against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your doings.'

JOB 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

AMO 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

I'm just going to stop there so I can let you post some scriptures which, in your BIBLICAL UNDERSTANDING, have supported YOUR OPINION, which so far seems to be scripturally lacking in that regard.

 

[Hillsage]

I agree that God's ways/acts have changed when all sin of the world was imputed to Jesus, thereby leaving an continual open invitation on His part to bring us into fellowship with Him.

I agree, but you know what? Jesus spoke the verse I just quoted BEFORE He'd even died on the cross to make available His imputed righteousness.

"neither do I condemn you 'like the law' go and sin no more"

A "law" which they were still under when He spoke. So if you're going to be here, think a bit deeper friend. And please don't forget to answer my 113 post. I put some pretty good time into it.