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Featured Is God responsible for sin, evil and suffering?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Jun 1, 2017.

  1. DeerGlow

    DeerGlow User Gifted Supporter Status by Someone Else Supporter

    United States
    It seems only logical to me. When you breed two zebras, you get a zebra. What comes from two cats? Kittens. Logically, what comes from sinners? Sinners. It's not that sin is a literal gene in our DNA passed down from Adam, it's that the race of mankind in its first pair was irreparably changed, both having sinned and awakened to good and evil.

    Yes, God could have. He could have killed us all but He had mercy on His creations and let them live. Did not send Adam and Eve to hell and start over but establish covenants and mercy to forgive and save from sin although God owes us nothing. That's something to remember. God created us and we owe Him our lives, God died on a cross and resurrected to forgive us, we owe so much and He owes us nothing but has given us far more grace than we deserve. If one person out of billions does not see hell, God is loving, merciful, and graceful.

    Patience? Nehemiah 9:16-17 says: "But they, our fathers, acted arrogantly; They became stubborn and would not listen to Your commandments. "They refused to listen, And did not remember Your wondrous deeds which You had performed among them; So they became stubborn and appointed a leader to return to their slavery in Egypt But You are a God of forgiveness, Gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness; And You did not forsake them."

    This is talking about the golden calf while Moses was on the mountain. It was a very short time, and Israel already turned to idols and credited them for what God just did delivering them from death and slavery under the Egyptians. They could not enter the promise land, but did God kill them on the spot and start over? No, He had mercy and cared for them, giving the promise land to their children. Even Moses, while he could not go in got to go up high and look at the land.

    Love? 1 Timothy 2:4 says of God: "who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." John 3:16-17 say: “"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.”

    Does that sound like God has run out of love? Reinforced by John 15:13 which states: “Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.” How much more dying for us while we were still sinners, depraved and unable to seek Him or follow His ways?

    Also, John 6:37 says: “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” No man in depravity can seek God, but God gives us to Jesus and when we come Jesus promises He will not cast us out.

    Power? You say yourself in this post that all things are possible with God, according to Jesus. Could God create the world, heaven, hell, all plants, animals, humans, and save some but be just too weak to save all? No, this is not how it is. Psalm 79:11 says: "Let the groans of the prisoners come before you;
    according to your great power, preserve those doomed to die!" Power and love to forgive sinners.

    Why are all not saved? John 3:19-20 says: “And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.” All have sinned and become spiritually dead, depraved, evil. Most criminals do not go and turn themselves into the police willingly without reason, because they do not want the punishment for their evil actions, which they deserve since they are guilty. On a scale of sin, sinners who love their sin more than God do not want to give it up but would rather try to hide it or ignore it and hide in the dark so they can attempt to avoid punishment.

    God repaid Job twofold what he lost. Again I'd mention, God really has no obligation to do this. Drowned innocent babies? If there were any babies, I am not God, I do not know what He knows. We do not know what He spared us from by stopping the wicked of that day. God though, gave us rainbows as a sign He would not do this again, though it was not sin because God does not sin, and now the tares will grow alongside the wheat.

    Matthew 13:24-30

    “He put another parable before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?' He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' So the servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?' But he said, 'No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, "Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn."'"”

    ‭‭The weeds (tares) will be allowed to grow. They will not be uprooted lest the wheat get uprooted as well. Of course the weeds may hurt the wheat, taking their water, choking their sun, but this is what sin does. Not what God does. Sin harms all things.

    Woah, let's take a step back from saying Satan is God's servant following His commands. Matthew 12:25-32 says:
    “Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

    If the devil is God's servant, he must be with God or else God's house does not stand. How can God then cast out Satan and be divided against Himself? He casts out Satan because the devil is not of Him, His house is not divided but is strong because it is united and holy. Let us be careful in what we attribute to God, He does not like a man to be innocently condemned (Proverbs 17:15 says: He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the LORD.), how much more will He dislike being accused of evil?

    The devil began as an angel, I think we can agree he sinned, and the angels who left with him. If angels can abandon their posts, who are in heaven, how much more am I likely to sin?

    Again, the wheat and tares (weeds) are growing together now. Also, we cannot see God's full plan. Why doesn't He stop kids being raped? Why was hitler able to start the holocaust? God knows more than we do, who are we to advise a perfect God with our imperfect knowledge (Isaiah 40:13-14 says: "Who has measured the Spirit of the LORD,
    or what man shows him his counsel?
    Whom did he consult,
    and who made him understand?
    Who taught him the path of justice,
    and taught him knowledge,
    and showed him the way of understanding?")? Is it possible for all things to work out for good? Jesus says all things are possible with God, and it is unwise to call the Son of God a liar.
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2017
  2. DeerGlow

    DeerGlow User Gifted Supporter Status by Someone Else Supporter

    United States
    Why do we deserve punishment for their sin? Okay, how about our own? Since God says this (Ezekiel 18:4): “Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.” The soul that sins shall get the punishment, which is death. Who has sinned? Romans 3:23 says: “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” Everyone has sinned. 1 John 1:8 says: “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Non-loving? God offers us salvation that He does not owe us. John 3:16-17 says: “"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.” God loved us enough to die for us. John 15:13 says:“Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." And Romans 5:8 says: “but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” There is no greater love than dying for friends, and Christ died while we were dead in our sins, unable to seek Him. Romans 3:10-12 says: “as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."”
  3. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

    This messed up world is not here for your pleasure, but to help you become like God Himself in that you have the unique, unbelievable Godly type Love (God himself is Love).

    God has created beings to shower them with the greatest gifts possible, the greatest being having a Love like His.

    If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

    Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.

    So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes, since that force compels even God to do all He does) and thus we become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).

    What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation, eliminating the need for free will and this earthly time:

    There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)

    This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).

    An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).

    This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.

    Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.

    All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

    If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

    That is an introduction to a huge topic.
  4. anma

    anma New Member

    I have to say, I raised all my children in church and instructed them on becoming saved. I have one son, whom has decided that God is a myth, even after all the instruction he received as a child. I have not given up on him, especially since I learned that the guy that wrote Amazing Grace was once the same type of believer. Who knows, maybe my son will write an awesome hymn, when God softens his heart again.
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  5. PropheticTimes

    PropheticTimes Lord Have Mercy Supporter

    United States
    Not one of God's children will suffer eternal torment. However, those who do not accept Jesus' atonement and bear the seal of God (the Holy Spirit) cannot call God "Father". Those in eternal torment have put themselves there by their free will choice to reject Christ and harden their hearts to the Holy Spirit.

    God never gives up on His children.

    12Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
    John 1:12-13
  6. JohnKing67

    JohnKing67 Member

    Most beings end up in torments forever because they don't want anything to do with God. If you're going to blame God it might be for giving us freedom of choice.
  7. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

    United States
    What instruction must one give a child on being saved?
  8. staffsgt7

    staffsgt7 Member

    God gave us freewill. God didn't want slaves but us who willingly accept Him. We chose to sin.

    God also gave us His Son to make the ultimate sacrifice. God has given.

    My question is, and I think I can figure it out a bit but the horrors that the type I will describe goes on by those that willingly follow. I describe someone like Mohamed, who can only be fathomed by Islam's own texts (mostly hadith and sira). He obviously had at least one real physical disorder, possibly two (he had fits when he was born - hence, his wet nurse handed him back to his mother; and later on he probably had adult onset acromegaly). Both of these things could account for some of his behaviors early and later in life (seeing visions, perverse sexual desires, etc) especially when we remember they were not treated in the 7th century.

    But he probably had another disorder - when he was born, he was abandoned. A child does not understand all things and looks at a father's death as abandonment. His mother handed him off when he was a baby. He wet nurse handed him off due to him 'having fits' back to his mother. His mother died when he was about 5-6 years old. His next caregiver, his grandfather, died about 2 years later. His next caregiver, his uncle Abu Talib - well, we don't have too much about him.

    In the book, Faith of the Fatherless, we see that many atheists have 'daddy problems'. Well, Mohamed had a physical problem, and not only 'daddy problems' but also 'mommy problems'. Then atheism was not a choice in the 7th century (rebellion against God, especially God the Father). So he rebelled in his creation of an allah that was hateful, intolerant, lied, wanted others to worship it and lie, murder, etc for it and a sexual pervert with its 'heavenly rewards' being sexual abuse of women and little boys for eternity!

    So, is that sort of a person forgiven? OR Are those that follow such a perverse person and his ideology who do not have such problems forgiven?

    Then there are the atheists of our time - Lenin, Stalin, Marx, etc who have created one of the most vile atheistic ideology that murdered untold millions - even more than Mohamed and his gang of miscreants have murdered over the centuries. Both of these ideologies' murder count are still going on to this day.

    Some of the atheists I noted also have daddy problems. Are they forgiven? OR are these types given a pass but those with no problems given a harsher 'sentence'?

    Sometimes I really wonder about this, as I do now.
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    Is eternal sufferings in fire just punishment for a few years or decades of mistakes, ignorance & selfishness? I would say, no, a thousand times, no.
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

  11. CrystalDragon

    CrystalDragon Well-Known Member


    There's nothing whatsoever about the devil having once been an angel. Lucifer was just a Babylonian king who was arrogant, never anything to do with Satan.
  12. david.d

    david.d Member

    Satan is responsible for all of that and he will be held responsible. God created man without sin, sin is Satan's covenant with the flesh against God.
  13. DeerGlow

    DeerGlow User Gifted Supporter Status by Someone Else Supporter

    United States
    ‭Some people think that, but I'd like to share with you what my study bible says.

    Isaiah 14:12-15 says: “"How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit.”

    Ezekiel 28:12-19 says: “"Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever."”

    On Ezekiel 28:12-19 it says: This passage is similar to the one found in Isaiah chapter 14 in that it begins as a prophecy against an earthly ruler but leads into an oracle against Satan, the real power behind the pagan kings. The ruler of Babylon is the original subject in Isaiah, while Ezekiel begins with the ruler of Tyre. Some scholars claim that this passage refers only to an earthly king, but the word "cherub" (vv.14, 16) is used in Scripture only of angelic beings (Genesis 3:24; Exodus 25:18-20; Ezekiel 9:3; Ezekiel 10:1-22). Moreover, this individual was "in Eden, the garden of God" (v. 13), which distinguishes him from earthly kings.

    Also this 2 Peter 2:4 which explicitly states: “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;” Which reinforces that angels can and have sinned, while not referring to Satan alone.
  14. Dr Bruce Atkinson

    Dr Bruce Atkinson Supporter Supporter

    United States
    The Problem:
    The rational dilemma in theodicy has been commonly expressed in terms of logical propositions or some form of syllogism. For example:
    I. a. If God is perfectly good,
    then He must want to abolish all evil and suffering.
    b. If God is omnipotent (all powerful),
    then He must be able to abolish all evil and suffering.

    II. Evil and suffering exist in the world in great quantity.

    III. Therefore, God cannot be both perfectly good and also omnipotent.

    The Solution:
    To counter the accusations of unbelieving philosophers and also to provide comfort to believers, the task for the Christian apologist has been to develop a rational and biblical response to this logical difficulty.

    First, most people do not understand the terribleness of sin and its consequences. Humans were created to be able to choose (being in the image of God) and without the possible choice of rebelling against God, they really would not have choice at all. So this possibility was necessary for such beings to exist. God is responsible for creating free-willed beings, but not for what they choose to do with this ability. Well, they did sin and all human beings are living extensions of these first sinners. Suffering and death goes with the territory.

    Second, Christian faith proclaims that God is the very definition of goodness and love and power. Since the "logical problem” mentioned above is not one that comes from faith, we can expect some disingenuous illogic to be embedded in how it is framed. It seems obvious to me that there is an unexpressed assumption in these logical propositions that an all-powerful, all-loving God could not possibly have a wonderfully positive purpose for temporarily allowing this degree of evil and suffering.

    Even 100,000 years is an eye-blink in time compared to eternity. What if short-term innocent suffering (like that of Jesus) wins for humanity huge eternal gains that would be otherwise impossible? What if this eventuality makes the suffering that occurs in this short life well worth it? As Christians, we don’t regard these “what ifs” as possibilities, we believe them to be true.
  15. S.O.J.I.A.

    S.O.J.I.A. Dynamic UNO

    United States
    Christian Seeker
    adam was told that if he ate of the forbidden tree that he would die.

    he ate, he died. with choices come consequences.
  16. Theo Book

    Theo Book Member Supporter

    Men are slaves to sin only as they make that their choice of options, based on "Freewill" freely given to all by God.

    God does not make people sin. He offers options, and allows every person to choose for themselves, based upon subtleties of desire, need, and curiosity.

    If Men are found to be slaves to sin, it is because that was their freewill choice from among more than one selection.

    What they "inherited" from Adam, was free choice to sin or not to sin. "Sin nature?" Listen to scripture instead of "Doctrines of MEN" - "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." (Rom 2:14-16)

    "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." (Deut 24:16)

    "But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin."(II Kings 14:6)

    "Now it came to pass, when the kingdom was established to him, that he slew his servants that had killed the king his father. 4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin."(II Chronicles 25:3)

    "The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, 2 What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? 3 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. 5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath
    withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD.

    10 If he beget a son that is a robber, a shedder of blood, and that doeth the like to any one of these things, 11 And that doeth not any of those duties, but even hath eaten upon the mountains, and defiled his neighbour's wife,12 Hath oppressed the poor and needy, hath spoiled by violence, hath not restored the pledge,and hath lifted up his eyes to the idols, hath committed abomination, 13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.

    14 Now, lo, if he beget a son, that seeth all his father's sins which he hath done, and considereth, and doeth not such like, 15 That hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, hath not defiled his neighbour's wife, 16 Neither hath oppressed any, hath not withholden the pledge, neither hath spoiled by violence, but hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment, 17 That hath taken off his hand from the poor, that hath not received usury nor increase, hath executed my judgments, hath walked in my statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

    18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity. 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

    22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.

    23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

    24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath
    trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

    25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? 26 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

    27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. 28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

    29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

    30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

    32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."(Ezekiel 18)

    Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
  17. holyrokker

    holyrokker Contributor

    United States
  18. James5086

    James5086 New Member

    United States
  19. James5086

    James5086 New Member

    United States
    I am hesitant to voice any personal judgements. Too many times God has called me on such things. But yes, I believe that there will be those who will be ostracized from God and His kingdom. This has been mentioned in scripture, and a reason given, Light and darkness cannot live together. This comes at an enormous price to Him, God. We are all His children and he loves us all, just as we love our own children. Only His relationship to us didn't start just yesterday. It started eons ago. So, His lost is much greater than you and I can imagine. People take the opinion that He has another option open.
    Its' really ironic, that the omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient God head could be at a disadvantage. The reason this is the case, centers around free agency. Because of free agency we are given the option to decide our eventual fate, or destiny. Exactly what does that mean? It means that the Father has delegated the responsibility to us to ultimately decide where we will voluntarily place our loyalty. Needless to say, our destinies lie with our loyalties. Darkness exists because it will not dwell in the light.
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    I imagine the subject has been discussed here before, but if you start up a new thread there may be some interest in it. You could post your rebuttal to the 2nd link i posted to you from a Reformed source with an extensive section on original sin complete with a number of Scripture passages the author claims & explains in support of his opinion.