Is God really Omnipotent?

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Why wouldn't God be omnipotent? He created 3 different heavens, all of the animals we see today and the entire human race in only 6 days. Can anything or anyone EVER in an Eternity pull that off? I didn't think so.
 
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Silverback

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I've started to realize that God may not be fully omnipotent. For instance he doesn't make the world a perfect place, but heaven he does? He doesn't answer all prayers? So is he omnipotent?

Can you prove that He is omnipotent?

God did make the world perfect, but the sin of Adam contaminated our nature, death entered the world, and the rest is history. Additionally, all of creation has been adversely effected by sin, it's why everything decay's, and dies.

God does answer all prayers, his replies are yes, no, or, not yet. God allows sin, but he places boundaries on it (read Job) Try to remember, humanity is limited in our ability to reason, discern, and to understand. God's ways are not our ways, God's thoughts are not our thoughts, if God does something it is always just, and right. If God was not omnipotent, then he would not be God.
 
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fhansen

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I've started to realize that God may not be fully omnipotent. For instance he doesn't make the world a perfect place, but heaven he does? He doesn't answer all prayers? So is he omnipotent?

Can you prove that He is omnipotent?
This very non-Edenic and unheavenly world we're in now, where both good and evil are experienced- or literally known-is actually a perfect place: perfect for finding out just how lousy imperfection is, for finding out how bad evil is so we may choose between it and good, to find out just how much we need the ultimate Perfection: God.

God wants us to choose, that's just how much He values our freedom, how much He wants us, on our own, to will rightly. And we live here amidst many, many wrong choices, daily made, some of them our own choices and the very first being that of Adam & Eve. We're here to be educated the hard way, to learn, for one thing, that Adam & Eve were wrong in their decision to disobey God, dismissing Him as their God for all practical purposes. Here's a teaching I'm familiar with:
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it? With infinite power God could always create something better. But with infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.

And more regarding humans specifically, discussing the moral realm in creation of perfection vs imperfection:
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.
 
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Thanks Ted, I've noticed that God didn't create perfection and we are proof of that. If he were omnipotent wouldn't we all be perfect? And perhaps he will make us all perfect? No, for the devil, beast and false profit will spend eternity in hellfire. He does create things that aren't perfect. If he was truely omnipotent wouldn't his creations be perfect?
Has this been satisfactorily answered already in the thread for you? It's one of the classic questions. The answer relies on examining 'free will' -- that God chooses to allow us to do wrongs, because He does not want puppets or robots, but people that trust Him in real trust, and begin to follow His ways, to love others. Put another way, He wants us to be transformed over time into doing authentic love (instead of just making us as programmed machines emulating love by automatic programming without free will).

He could have made us prefect robots.

But He chose something which seems clearly better, even though it will involve plenty of temporary suffering.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I've started to realize that God may not be fully omnipotent. For instance he doesn't make the world a perfect place, but heaven he does? He doesn't answer all prayers? So is he omnipotent?

Can you prove that He is omnipotent?
Maybe you need proof that God exists? We know that God is "all powerful" and creation is His footstool.

"Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. "

Faith and staying the course is easy for some and not so easy for others. When times of trouble appear and it seems He is no where to be found, He is right there with you. Believing without proof is what faith is all about.

Thomas, now thoroughly convinced He was the Living Lord responded, "My Lord and my God!" At this, Jesus said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who believe without seeing."
 
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Resha Caner

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Why not just create heaven and perfect people to fill it? And create no evil thing? I don't understand.

Looking at it from a systematics standpoint, it's essentially a logical impossibility to do what you're asking. In basic terms, we humans can string together any set of words we choose. That doesn't mean that string of words is a logical possibility.

If God created what you have proposed, in the end it would mean he has recreated himself ... but God already exists so ... it would mean he did nothing. The result, then, is a logical contradiction (doing something = doing nothing). That's as brief as I can make it. There's a longer, much more complicated explanation.
 
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fhansen

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Looking at it from a systematics standpoint, it's essentially a logical impossibility to do what you're asking. In basic terms, we humans can string together any set of words we choose. That doesn't mean that string of words is a logical possibility.

If God created what you have proposed, in the end it would mean he has recreated himself ... but God already exists so ... it would mean he did nothing. The result, then, is a logical contradiction (doing something = doing nothing). That's as brief as I can make it. There's a longer, much more complicated explanation.
Yes, I agree with this. Anything created, no matter how good, will still be imperfect relative to God. And this is why He wants us to know our inescapable need for Him. That knowledge alone, and the relationship/communion with Him that it seeks to establish through faith, is the first step in or aspect of increasing man's perfection or justice, i.e. of our becoming justified.
 
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Lady O

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I've started to realize that God may not be fully omnipotent. For instance he doesn't make the world a perfect place, but heaven he does? He doesn't answer all prayers? So is he omnipotent?

Can you prove that He is omnipotent?
You've had many good replies to your question Devin, so I will be quick here and add just one more short thought. ".....with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26.

God is who He says he is.
 
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Jenniferdiana

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Yes, the Spirit assures us that God is real. However, I am referring to attempts to prove God to unbelievers. There are many proofs of God's existence, but the ultimate proof has to come within someone's heart and soul. Finally, when all is said and done, it all comes down to faith. One can choose to believe or not believe. God does not force us. We have free will.
Ok but free will still leaves God blameless and the world without excuse. Just because God gives us free will doesn't mean anything..it doesn't change nothing..it doesnt change who God is and it doesnt change the truth ..it only leads us to the destination we chose to go...God is still without fault. He is still who he is..and does what he pleases...free will doesn't mean blame God for the desicions we make in our life. because God is still right by his word..it will all stand true. He gave us that freedom to make our own choices so no one would have an excuse in the end.. but his words still stand true..it ain't nobody making no one believe in God, what people choose to believe is thier own burden they will have to carry.. God gives us free will but he also tells us the right way to go...I think people are trying to find fault on God and make him look bad because they are trying to justify thier own choices and actions in life..but that won't work..nothing will but eternal life from Jesus through the holy spirit...there's no other way.....
 
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Resha Caner

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Yes, I agree with this. Anything created, no matter how good, will still be imperfect relative to God. And this is why He wants us to know our inescapable need for Him. That knowledge alone, and the relationship/communion with Him that it seeks to establish through faith, is the first step in or aspect of increasing man's perfection or justice, i.e. of our becoming justified.

I wouldn't say it that way. The world was created perfect and God called it good. Thinking of the material as evil is a gnostic idea I don't accept.

So don't confuse our finite nature with imperfection. God is infinite and we are finite. His "perfection" (as we view it) comes from his infinite nature, and the world would have remained perfect as well had Adam relied on God for those things that were beyond his finite nature. In colloquial terms a quote from GroundHog Day works, when Phil says maybe the reason God knows everything is because he's been around so long.

The reason we are imperfect is because of the Fall. It has nothing to do with how we were created.
 
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fhansen

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I wouldn't say it that way. The world was created perfect and God called it good. Thinking of the material as evil is a gnostic idea I don't accept.

So don't confuse our finite nature with imperfection. God is infinite and we are finite. His "perfection" (as we view it) comes from his infinite nature, and the world would have remained perfect as well had Adam relied on God for those things that were beyond his finite nature. In colloquial terms a quote from GroundHog Day works, when Phil says maybe the reason God knows everything is because he's been around so long.

The reason we are imperfect is because of the Fall. It has nothing to do with how we were created.
I think there's a difference between "good" and "perfect". Adam & Eve certainly made an imperfect decision. How do we account for that? What's the mechanism or simply the ingredients for the Fall, the reason? I'm not suggesting that there's so easy any answer, just putting it out there. We lost justice-our just state of being-with the Fall but what could've caused the wrong choice to begin with? Does lack of wisdom, for example, equate to imperfection, an imperfection that God should've possesed regardless of how long He's been around, eternity IOW?
 
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I've started to realize that God may not be fully omnipotent. For instance he doesn't make the world a perfect place, but heaven he does? He doesn't answer all prayers? So is he omnipotent?

Can you prove that He is omnipotent?

"The term omnipotent has been used to connote a number of different positions. These positions include, but are not limited to, the following:

  1. A deity is able to do anything that it chooses to do.[1] (In this version God can do the impossible and something contradictory.[2])
  2. A deity is able to do anything that is in accord with its own nature (thus, for instance, if it is a logical consequence of a deity's nature that what it speaks is truth, then it is not able to lie).[citation needed]
  3. It is part of a deity's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for said deity to go against its own laws unless there was a reason to do so.[3]
However many modern scholars (such as John Polkinghorne) hold that it is part of a deity's nature to be consistent and that it would be inconsistent for a deity to go against its own laws unless there were an overwhelming reason to do so.[3]"

Omnipotence - Wikipedia
 
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devin553344

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Maybe you need proof that God exists? We know that God is "all powerful" and creation is His footstool.

"Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is My throne, And earth is My footstool. "

Faith and staying the course is easy for some and not so easy for others. When times of trouble appear and it seems He is no where to be found, He is right there with you. Believing without proof is what faith is all about.

Thomas, now thoroughly convinced He was the Living Lord responded, "My Lord and my God!" At this, Jesus said, "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who believe without seeing."

The Holy Spirit has given me a knowledge of God, I was a little unsure of who He is really. But I think I was just tested into wondering if he was omnipotent.
 
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I've started to realize that God may not be fully omnipotent. For instance he doesn't make the world a perfect place, but heaven he does? He doesn't answer all prayers? So is he omnipotent?
The fact that he doesn't do something doesn't mean that he can't. And it's important to remember that to say that "God can do anything" doesn't mean that he can do things that aren't actually things. For example, the word string "triangle with four sides" is meaningless nonsense, and putting the words "can God make a" at the beginning of it doesn't change that. A triangle with four sides can have no existence by definition.

Can you prove that He is omnipotent?
You can't do much better than studying the writings of St. Thomas Acquinas:
SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: The power of God (Prima Pars, Q. 25)

Or for a somewhat more digestible summary: Aquinas on Whether God is Omnipotent (AQA A Level Philosophy New Spec)
 
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Resha Caner

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I think there's a difference between "good" and "perfect".

In a Biblical sense I don't think there is a difference. Any attempt to build an argument on whatever small semantic differences may exist between those two words will be fraught with difficulty.

I simply won't accept a theology that maintains God created something less than perfect. Pulling on that thread undoes the whole tapestry. With that said, when speaking with unbelievers it's not a point worth arguing. In those cases I simply concede it: OK, sin is God's fault. Now what?

Adam & Eve certainly made an imperfect decision. How do we account for that?

A few quibbles. The knowledge of good and evil is a post-Fall state. Prior to the Fall Adam knew no such thing, so his decision couldn't be based on good vs. evil. Instead, his decision was in opposition to God's will. That may seem a small point, but it's an important one, because it eliminates statements that his decision was "imperfect".

Adam had a will, and God had laid out where Adam was free to make decisions based on that will. Lutherans refer to this as the Kingdom of the Left vs the Kingdom of the Right. In the Right, God must move first. Things must be according to his will. In the Left man moves first, and things can be according to his will. Of course the Fall messed that up and we now struggle to discern the difference. We on this side of the Fall, are imperfect - corrupted by sin. But that is a consequence of Adam and something that didn't exist until the Fall.

C.S. Lewis has a great example of how a finite nature can lead to sin. I'm walking (good thing) and thinking (good thing). But my ability to do both is limited, so I don't see the other person and run into them. Two good things have now produced a bad thing because of my finite nature ... not because I was evil and meant to hurt the other person or because I was imperfect and didn't know how to walk or think.

In Genesis we see the same thing. Several good things lead to a bad thing due to Adam's finite nature. His will leads to a decision that should have been left to God.
 
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I do not believe that we can prove that God is omnipotent, anymore than we can prove His existence. Yes, I know that some ponder if perhaps God is not omnipotent. Rabbi Kushner did so in his famous book, When Bad Things Happen to Good People. However, it seems to me that any God who created this Universe and who has sustained it for apparently millions/billions of years, must be omnipotent.
Two very different proposals above.

Proof would be of a philosophical not mathematical nature.

Existence could be more shown to be much more reasonably true than false through natural theological arguments such as the Kalam or Liebnizian cosmological arguments, various design arguments, moral arguments as well as abductive arguments as the best explanation of intentionality, origin of mind, applicability of math in discovering our universe, etc. and various transcendent arguments such as the origin of beauty.

Cumulatively the alternative of no God would be quite small.

Omniscience would require a more complex process from God's existence to his desire to communicate to an inductive validity of trusting God's revelation.

While we might be able to build some inferential tree that goes from His existence to "We can trust the revelation God gives us." But omniscience proper is no more comprehensible to us than the concept of no space (not empty space) or no time. So we can't examine our intuitions or any experience to help us even understand omniscience let alone justify it.
 
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fhansen

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In a Biblical sense I don't think there is a difference. Any attempt to build an argument on whatever small semantic differences may exist between those two words will be fraught with difficulty.

I simply won't accept a theology that maintains God created something less than perfect. Pulling on that thread undoes the whole tapestry. With that said, when speaking with unbelievers it's not a point worth arguing. In those cases I simply concede it: OK, sin is God's fault. Now what?



A few quibbles. The knowledge of good and evil is a post-Fall state. Prior to the Fall Adam knew no such thing, so his decision couldn't be based on good vs. evil. Instead, his decision was in opposition to God's will. That may seem a small point, but it's an important one, because it eliminates statements that his decision was "imperfect".

Adam had a will, and God had laid out where Adam was free to make decisions based on that will. Lutherans refer to this as the Kingdom of the Left vs the Kingdom of the Right. In the Right, God must move first. Things must be according to his will. In the Left man moves first, and things can be according to his will. Of course the Fall messed that up and we now struggle to discern the difference. We on this side of the Fall, are imperfect - corrupted by sin. But that is a consequence of Adam and something that didn't exist until the Fall.

C.S. Lewis has a great example of how a finite nature can lead to sin. I'm walking (good thing) and thinking (good thing). But my ability to do both is limited, so I don't see the other person and run into them. Two good things have now produced a bad thing because of my finite nature ... not because I was evil and meant to hurt the other person or because I was imperfect and didn't know how to walk or think.

In Genesis we see the same thing. Several good things lead to a bad thing due to Adam's finite nature. His will leads to a decision that should have been left to God.
Well, I agree that God could create no bad thing. And certainly A & E were perfect according to their created natures. But to make their limitations the cause of failure to choose rightly would also mean that God blamed them for expressing those inherent limitations. Maybe this works in the overall bigger picture, since God already had a plan of salvation in place, foreknowing their failure, knowing the beginning from the end and planning on using the Fall for His ultimate good purposes. This might also align with the Catholic teaching regarding God's having made His world "in a state of journeying to perfection".

Anyway, I think He's telling us that something was missing in Adam & Eve, something that He wanted them to supply, still with the help of grace at the end of the day. At some point He wants the Right and Left to coincide, for our wills to come into agreement with His, the first order of which is to know that His will is undeniably impeccable, and worth heeding. Opposing that, opposing God, was the first step in Adam willing wrongly, and reversing that opposition is our first step in willing rightly.
 
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In a Biblical sense I don't think there is a difference. Any attempt to build an argument on whatever small semantic differences may exist between those two words will be fraught with difficulty.

I simply won't accept a theology that maintains God created something less than perfect. Pulling on that thread undoes the whole tapestry. With that said, when speaking with unbelievers it's not a point worth arguing. In those cases I simply concede it: OK, sin is God's fault. Now what?



A few quibbles. The knowledge of good and evil is a post-Fall state. Prior to the Fall Adam knew no such thing, so his decision couldn't be based on good vs. evil. Instead, his decision was in opposition to God's will. That may seem a small point, but it's an important one, because it eliminates statements that his decision was "imperfect".

Adam had a will, and God had laid out where Adam was free to make decisions based on that will. Lutherans refer to this as the Kingdom of the Left vs the Kingdom of the Right. In the Right, God must move first. Things must be according to his will. In the Left man moves first, and things can be according to his will. Of course the Fall messed that up and we now struggle to discern the difference. We on this side of the Fall, are imperfect - corrupted by sin. But that is a consequence of Adam and something that didn't exist until the Fall.

C.S. Lewis has a great example of how a finite nature can lead to sin. I'm walking (good thing) and thinking (good thing). But my ability to do both is limited, so I don't see the other person and run into them. Two good things have now produced a bad thing because of my finite nature ... not because I was evil and meant to hurt the other person or because I was imperfect and didn't know how to walk or think.

In Genesis we see the same thing. Several good things lead to a bad thing due to Adam's finite nature. His will leads to a decision that should have been left to God.
That was interesting. To me, what I see so crucial in Eve's and Adam's choices is they trusted someone else (serpent, themselves, other person) over God, instead of God. They "broke trust" (and...also notice that really it means too that on a key level they didn't believe, didn't have faith in Him, even knowing He existed, even walking with Him prior to then).
 
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Resha Caner

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That was interesting. To me, what I see so crucial in Eve's and Adam's choices is they trusted someone else (serpent, themselves, other person) over God, instead of God. They "broke trust" (and...also notice that really it means too that on a key level they didn't believe, didn't have faith in Him, even knowing He existed, even walking with Him prior to then).

Yes, trusting Satan was part of the issue. But you're still trying to apply post-Fall thinking, which we all do of course. It's not an easy thing to break the paradigm. I would recommend Bonhoeffer's Ethics. After I read it, my reaction was, "Um, What was that?" Then I thought about it for a year or so and it finally sank in.

You'll also have to allow me to geek out for a second. Science is a huge part of my job, but at one point I was struggling to explain certain machine behaviors and no one could give me an answer so I dug deep into the Philosophy of Science. Two things from that experience apply here. First, we must always model the world, i.e. we must always approximate. Second, approximations mean there is always more than one answer (i.e. model) to any question.

The result for our purposes here is that the human will manifests as a random process in scientific terms. Therefore, the only way to deal with it is through the statistics of populations. That means the exact details of Adam's will are unknowable to us. We will never identify the key combination of elements in his finite nature that led to sin. Again, a great book that demonstrates that is Asimov's Foundation series.

Well, I agree that God could create no bad thing. And certainly A & E were perfect according to their created natures. But to make their limitations the cause of failure to choose rightly would also mean that God blamed them for expressing those inherent limitations.

Per what I said above I would disagree. Genesis indicates God gave them a chance (so to speak). You're probably familiar with all the questions that hang around this narrative such as: What if only Eve sinned? What if Adam had said he was sorry? Why was Satan there if Eden was perfect? etc. Those are good questions because they point out that God doesn't really tell us the exact detail that constituted their sin. As such, we shouldn't speculate.

Maybe this works in the overall bigger picture, since God already had a plan of salvation in place, foreknowing their failure, knowing the beginning from the end and planning on using the Fall for His ultimate good purposes. This might also align with the Catholic teaching regarding God's having made His world "in a state of journeying to perfection".

Here's where you won't like my position. I would say knowing the future is a logical impossibility. Therefore, God didn't know they would choose to eat from the tree. That does not impinge on his maximal nature. There is a long list of logical absurdities that don't apply to God.

However, God did have a plan. And that plan always included Christ, which is to say it always included Christ's incarnation for our sake. The perfection of God's plan, then, is that it would work no matter what Adam decided to do. If he decided to eat, it would resurrect him from death. If he decided not to eat, it would prevent him from ever knowing death ... or whatever combinations you can imagine.

Anyway, I think He's telling us that something was missing in Adam & Eve.

I disagree. What God's telling us is that Christ was always a necessary part of the plan, and because Christ is part of the plan we remain (in Him) perfect.
 
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I find it interesting that people who deny Calvinism must consistently deny the omnipotence of God as this OP has proven. If God didn't decree all the events in human history for some particular purpose, then everything is contingent and God is struggling with how things are turning out against him. The fall was then a mistake that he is trying to fix, and Jesus died hoping that someone would receive him. It is the consistency of such theology...
Since Arminians and Molinists hold equally to God's sovereignty I don't understand how this is an issue of denying Calvinism per se.
 
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