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Featured Is God really love......(1 John 4:8) ??

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Light of the East, Aug 11, 2019.

  1. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    There is no "penalty" for sin. Stop thinking like a Roman Courtroom lawyer. Roman Catholic thinking got this whole mess started. God heals. He is the Great Physician. Western theology has turned Him into the Great Destroyer.
     
  2. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    The penalty for sin is death.
    The price for sin is death.
    The consequences of sin is death.
    The results of sin is death.


    Those who sinned, (all men), have CRUCIFIED THE LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS.
     
  3. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    Sorry, I am not sure, if I understand correctly what you mean, but I believe what the Bible tells, and according to it, only righteous live forever, others will be destroyed. I think it is ok and also love, if they are destroyed forever.

    If you meant that people live eternally in hell, then I think it is them who would make it suffering place. And it would really be what they want. People who go to hell, don’t want to be with God and live righteously. Godless life turns into suffering as you could see in countries like Libya, Syria… ….Should God force unrighteous people to be righteous? I think it woudl not be loving.

    I understand that you may not like it, but it is the Bible that says some people will be destroyed. Bible also tells that not all are God’s children, only those who are righteous (1 John 3:7-10). But that is not the main point. By what I see, God has offered healing, He has told how we should live and that we should love others as ourselves. If some people don’t want to do so, should God allow them to live eternally? Why? They would make life eternal suffering for all, that is why I think it would not be good. Also, forcing them to do right things, would be torturing for them who want to do evil. In my opinion only good choice is to not give eternal life for unrighteous people. Every other solution would lead to eternal suffering.
     
  4. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    I know what your trying to say.. but many have tried and you will not have the answer. This "salvation" goes far and above mans thinking. I have always believed it far easier to be saved than lost. There is this door.. some will try to climb over to get in. All must go through the way the truth and the life.. Christ. That HAS to be a choice. Yes He already died took away ALL the sins of the world.. but to receive it one HAS to believe in Christ.

    That being said.. there are those that never heard.. don't know.. to that I think what Jesus said fits "if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains". What I know is what He told me when I was like 15 asking how He could sent all these people to hell "for God so loved the world. Everyone gets a choice"

    Nothing has changed.. the fields are still white and ready..the laborers are few..
     
  5. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    You know, I quite often hear the standard Christian response, God must send people to be eternally punished, because he is ultimately just. I was think to myself, if God is ultimately just, that's the reason there is no such place as hell.
    Surely you wouldn't sentence someone to the same punishment for stealing bread, as you would for murder? No, only the most corrupt institutions of man would do such at thing. God's justice is perfect....that's why there is no such thing as eternal punishment.
     
  6. fwGod

    fwGod Active Member

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    The way that the post began I thought that I was reading something good about God.

    The following was written to reflect my disappoint that the OP turned sour. So this is a spoiler warning. Don't read any further, or continue on.

    All who do not accept that Jesus went to hell to endure the extreme suffering for every person that has lived, past, present, and future.. will get what hell has for them.

    It's not God who puts them there. It is they themselves. Because they reject the only way of redemption out of it.

    It's as simple as that.

    No other human being has been righteous enough to have gone in the place of sinners.. so no, the example given that if anyone had punished sinners as God does .. that they'd be considered an insane tyrant.

    Yes any man would, but not God. Because no human tyrant has had the highest level of love to provide sinners an escape from sin, death, the grave, and hell.

    Human tyrants only cause men to suffer. Being without love, they are no where in comparison to God who gives every person the choice to accept or reject.

    Jesus spoke it most plainly. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, and whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
    The understanding is, that those who reject will at death have everlasting torment in hell.

    The place of hell is originally for satan and his fallen demons. Those who reject God's plan of redemption, by default go to the same place.

    God has put before everyone. Life or death, blessing or cursing. Then God in His love advised.. Choose life that you and your seed may live.

    The line has been drawn. Who is on the Lord's side?

    Those who have accepted God's lovingkindness, and His grace.. should not make God sound like an evil tyrant. Those who do, don't know God.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019
  7. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    So, those who have never even heard of Christ or the gospel, they've chose everlasting torment, have they?
     
  8. fwGod

    fwGod Active Member

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    I didn't say that. You assume it.

    It has been reported that God speaks to people in their dreams. That's happening in these days, so it can be applied to anyone in the past.. but perhaps because you haven't heard of it, you think that people go to hell without being given a choice?

    You cannot say with any authority that there are those who haven't ever heard.
     
  9. martymonster

    martymonster Veteran

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    Really? There are lots of people who have never heard of Jesus Christ. To say otherwise, is pure ignorance.
     
  10. fwGod

    fwGod Active Member

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    Unless you have a list somewhere.. that you haven't shared yet. Then you are just being argumentative without any proof to give in support of your statements.

    But then, why would you and not everyone else have that information? Plain and simple, there isn't any such thing.

    To continue with empty argumentation is upchucking your willing ignorance because you want me to swallow it.

    That isn't going to happen.

    If your continuing to say the same thing without anything to support your objection is your way of telling me that you do not accept what I say.

    Fine then. You have told me.

    As far as I'm concerned. This unfruitful exchange is over.
     
  11. fwGod

    fwGod Active Member

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    I apologize for my posts, most of it was emotional rather than with proper thought in order to ideally better express myself.
    I'm apologizing for the way that I said it. However the attempt at being Biblically orthodox can hopefully be recognized. But perhaps not.

    In any case, I've no doubt that many another on this forum could convey this topic better than I've shown. I will endeavor to remember that before I write the last word on a reply and punch the reply button.
     
  12. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    It was God Himself who gave us the standard of punishment - lex talionis - the punishment fits the crime. As you mention, it is corrupt and evil man who hangs a hungry child for stealing a loaf of bread as those wonderful and holy Puritans of New England did. As one Universalist stated: in lex talionis, the only crime worthy of eternal death would be to destroy another soul.

    Therefore, eternal punishment simply cannot be true, no matter how many nutty and deceived Roman Catholic visionaries have been taken for a walk through hell by their visions.
     
  13. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    If you want to be biblically accurate, which is admirable and should be our standard, then you have to prove that the word "aionios" which is translated "eternal" (as in they shall suffer eternal punishment from the face of the Lord) is accurate.

    Aionios comes from the root word "aion" which means "age." There is another word which means eternal - adidios - and it is used only twice in the Scriptures and both times in reference to God, Who is eternal. There is a lot of carrying on about how Greek words can have multiple meanings and so on and so forth, but the unmistakable fact is that for 500 years of Christianity until the thug emperor, Justinian, closed the schools, four of six schools of theology taught Apokatastasis. Now either they were among the most stupid of men walking the earth, or something happened to change the meaning of "aionios." I vote for the latter, and it was because Justinian hated that teaching and felt it would not help him to make men and women cower in fear before him. Fear is always a good whip with which to subdue people and make them do your will, and what better fear than to paint God as ever-angry and ready to cast you into an ever burning hell?

    Your emotions are understandable because this subject, which is becoming more and more discussed in the Church, somehow brings out deep emotions. What I don't understand is this: how is it that describing God as being so loving as to love all who ever have or will makes people upset. The only thing I can think of is our human desire for revenge on those who do wrong. But Universalism does not teach that the wicked escape the consequences of their deeds. That would be unjust of God and also a denial of the Scriptures.

    Why then are people not satisfied with proportional justice in the next life?
     
  14. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You err because you forget Gods Highest attribute! That is holiness!
    You also err in that you forget that the lake of fire was created for Satan and His rebels from heaven. Mankind forced his own way in by his own rebellion.
    God offers forgiveness- but you must accept it gods way.

    True love is not let people getting away with whatever they want and not suffer consequences for it.
    You want to have God be just some impotent Creator sitting on the throne giving everyone eternal life with Him, no matter what they do! That is not love.
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    After hearing the argument that aion does not mean eternity and aionios does not mean eternal for about 2 decades on this forum and having 24/7 free time, I decided to research this for myself.
    In twenty one [21] of the following verses αἰών/aion and αἰώνιος/aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by comparison or contrast with other adjectives or adjectival phrases. And nobody has ever refuted this.
    List of verses:1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33,Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 5:21, Romans 16:26.
    …..In the NT “aion/aionios” sometimes refer to things which are not eternal but neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

    [1]
    Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    [2]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
    [3]
    Luke 1:33
    (33) And he shall reign [βασιλευσει][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [βασιλειας][Nn] there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
    In this verse the reign βασιλευσει/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom βασιλειας/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
    [4]
    2 Corinthians 4:17-18
    (17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
    (18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [5]
    2 Corinthians 5:1
    (1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
    In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house only lasts a little longer which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [6]
    Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [7]
    1 Peter 1:23
    (23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God.
    1 Peter 1:25
    (25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
    In verse 23 “word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” The same writer, Petr, in the same writing 1 Peter in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”
    [8]
    1 Timothy 6:16
    (16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
    [9]
    Galatians 6:8
    (8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
    [10]
    John 6:58
    (58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
    In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [11]
    John 10:28
    (28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
    [12]
    1 John 2:17
    (17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”
    [13]
    1 Peter 5:10
    (10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
    In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
    [14]
    Romans 2:7
    (7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
    In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
    [15]
    1 Timothy 1:17.
    (17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
    In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
    [16]
    Revelation 14:11
    (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
    In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
    [17]
    John 3:15
    (15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.
    [18]
    John 3:16
    (16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
    [19]
    John 5:24
    (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
    [20]
    Romans 5:21
    (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
    [21]
    Ephesians 3:21
    (21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
    In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
    [22]
    John 8:51
    (51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiona] see death."
    According to noted Greek scholar Marvin Vincent "The double negative “ ου μη/ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying whoever obeys Him will die, i.e. see death, unto the age, by definition aion means eternity.


     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    In addition to the research in the NT posted above I also researched the ECF.
    Ignatius of Antioch
    "Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).
    Second Clement
    "If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
    "But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).
    Justin Martyr
    "No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).
    "We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).
    "[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).
    The Martyrdom of Polycarp
    "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).
    Mathetes
    "When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).
    Athenagoras"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).
    Theophilus of Antioch
    "Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])
    Irenaeus
    "[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).
    "The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . it is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).
    Tertullian
    "After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).
    "Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).
    Hippolytus
    "Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).
    Minucius Felix
    "I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).
    Cyprian of Carthage
    "An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
    Lactantius
    "[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).
    Cyril of Jerusalem
    "We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).



     
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  17. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Perhaps you are not fully aware of what Apokatastasis teaches. The saints who taught this did not teach that people just live their lives any way they wish and waltz into heaven. There are consequences for our actions here on earth. The wicked will be scourged "with the scourging of God's love" (St.Isaac the Syrian) so as to bring them to repentance and restore the image of God in them. No such thing as a free ride into heaven
     
  18. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    <MM>You know, I quite often hear the standard Christian response, God must send people to be eternally punished, because he is ultimately just. I was think to myself, if God is ultimately just, that's the reason there is no such place as hell.
    Surely you wouldn't sentence someone to the same punishment for stealing bread, as you would for murder? No, only the most corrupt institutions of man would do such at thing. God's justice is perfect....that's why there is no such thing as eternal punishment
    .<MM>

    Very noble sentiments but unfortunately you cannot back up most of this from scripture.
     
  19. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    The backup from Scripture is the character of God. God IS love. That is His very being. Therefore, any interpretation of Scripture - after all, that is what we are arguing about - that is not in line with Him being love is simply a misunderstanding of some sort.

    Love does not do the things you hellists think it does. You have to prove from me that love would torture another person for their wrongs instead of helping them be cured of that which is wrong with them and made them do the wrong actions in the first place. Love does only good to the object of its affections, therefore, since God is love and loves all, then He can only do good.

    If you read Scripture, you will see that from the very beginning it is man who kills his fellow man. If you follow the line of Scripture, you will see that it is man who creates false ideas of God, including a "god" that demands infant sacrifice. It is man in his darkness who imprints his vision of what God is on the true and living God who is love.

    And the Early Fathers are not exempt from such errors either inasmuch as we see that they got caught in Arianism and other false ideas of God before councils corrected them.

    You have no idea of God IS love. Neither do I. Neither does the whole world. From the very beginning, Satan has worked to smear the character of God ("He doesn't want you to eat of the fruit because He is selfish and mean. He knows if you do, you will be like Him, knowing good from evil") to making up false ideas about God ("God wants you to throw your baby in the fire so you can have good crops. If you don't do it, He will smite you and your family.") to all the other false impressions of God. Remember, Satan is the accuser, including the accuser of God to us.

    I reject any and all interpretations of Scripture which are out of line with the revelation we have been given - i.e., God IS love. That is the foundation of everything we have to understand about God. Everything revolves around that fact of His Being.
     
  20. nolidad

    nolidad Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Well it sounds like St. Isaac teaches salvation after death, which is unbiblical.

    Hebrews 9:27
    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    All writings of men must be compared to the Word of God! And in this case- St. Isaac is very very wrong!
     
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