Is God outside of Time?

[JoeyArnold]

Is God outside of time? How does God know the future? Does God travel through time? Did God create time? How did Christ die before the foundations of the world? Did Christ die for future sins? How was Christ able to die for future sins? What does this thread have to do with the debate over eternal security?

Is God outside of Time, seriously? What is time? What is God? Was God created? Did God have a father? Is time the fourth dimension? Do these questions matter? If these questions matter, then why do these questions matter? Why & how is God outside or not outside of time? The question deals with theology, soteriology, & it deals with us, too. These questions deal with how we look at God, at time, at life, at each other, to how & why we are to live, to breath, to have purpose. These are root questions that are related to a bunch of other fundamental questions to life & all. Yours truly, Oatmeal Joey Arnold TV.

 

[Assyrian]

Is God outside of time?

Yes because to create the universe he has to exist independently of it.

How does God know the future?

Because he is outside time. That is how he knows the end from the beginning

Does God travel through time?

Doesn't have to if God exists everywhere in the universe from beginning to end.

Did God create time?

Through him all things were created.

How did Christ die before the foundations of the world?

He didn't that is a misunderstanding of the text.

Did Christ die for future sins? How was Christ able to die for future sins?

Our redemption is in him, in Christ, if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation and all our sins are washed away.

What does this thread have to do with the debate over eternal security?

explains how predestination is based on God's foreknowledge.

Is God outside of Time, seriously? What is time?

11:43

What is God?

The one who IS.

Was God created?

No.

Did God have a father? Is time the fourth dimension? Do these questions matter? If these questions matter, then why do these questions matter? Why & how is God outside or not outside of time? The question deals with theology, soteriology, & it deals with us, too. These questions deal with how we look at God, at time, at life, at each other, to how & why we are to live, to breath, to have purpose. These are root questions that are related to a bunch of other fundamental questions to life & all. Yours truly, Oatmeal Joey Arnold TV.

etc

 

[elopez]

Is God outside of time? How does God know the future? Does God travel through time? Did God create time? How did Christ die before the foundations of the world? Did Christ die for future sins? How was Christ able to die for future sins? What does this thread have to do with the debate over eternal security?

Is God outside of Time, seriously? What is time? What is God? Was God created? Did God have a father? Is time the fourth dimension? Do these questions matter? If these questions matter, then why do these questions matter? Why & how is God outside or not outside of time? The question deals with theology, soteriology, & it deals with us, too. These questions deal with how we look at God, at time, at life, at each other, to how & why we are to live, to breath, to have purpose. These are root questions that are related to a bunch of other fundamental questions to life & all. Yours truly, Oatmeal Joey Arnold TV.

Man, you sure do have a lot of questions that you are pretty persistent about asking. Why not take it a little slow instead of shooting off a million questions at once?
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God is eternal (Deuteronomy 33:27; Isaiah 57:15), as these passages make it very clear. Eternity in relation to God's existence denotes there was no beginning and there will be no end to His existence, which further means that God was not created. Time as we experience it does have a beginning and does have an end. Time began at the first moment of creation, or said differently, with the first creative act time was generated as a result. So if God is eternal He existed causally prior to the existence of the universe and so time. If God exists prior to the existence of the universe and time, then God exists in a state of timelessness. Thus if God is eternal He is timeless, or outside of time, or atemporal.

[/FONT]So yes, God did create time as again it was the consequence of God's initial creative action. Time is logically posterior to the happenings of events, so God's acting is explanatorily prior to the existence of time. So as God acts time is the result. If God is above and outside of time, so to speak, then time does not restrict God in any manner whatsoever. So the future wouldn't need to happen first in order for God to know it, for the future is nothing but a time period that occurs after the present, and time does not restrict God. This makes any talk of God time traveling a little silly, as God is again outside of time. This also makes any talk of God doing something "before" creation incomprehensible, since there is no time "before" time, such as with the question, "What was God doing before creation?"



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[er72]

I thought we already inhabited the fourth dimension.

God transcends time, but also encompasses, and exists within all time - at once.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Man, you sure do have a lot of questions that you are pretty persistent about asking. Why not take it a little slow instead of shooting off a million questions at once?
[FONT=&quot]
God is eternal (Deuteronomy 33:27; Isaiah 57:15), as these passages make it very clear. Eternity in relation to God's existence denotes there was no beginning and there will be no end to His existence, which further means that God was not created. Time as we experience it does have a beginning and does have an end. Time began at the first moment of creation, or said differently, with the first creative act time was generated as a result. So if God is eternal He existed causally prior to the existence of the universe and so time. If God exists prior to the existence of the universe and time, then God exists in a state of timelessness. Thus if God is eternal He is timeless, or outside of time, or atemporal.

[/FONT]So yes, God did create time as again it was the consequence of God's initial creative action. Time is logically posterior to the happenings of events, so God's acting is explanatorily prior to the existence of time. So as God acts time is the result. If God is above and outside of time, so to speak, then time does not restrict God in any manner whatsoever. So the future wouldn't need to happen first in order for God to know it, for the future is nothing but a time period that occurs after the present, and time does not restrict God. This makes any talk of God time traveling a little silly, as God is again outside of time. This also makes any talk of God doing something "before" creation incomprehensible, since there is no time "before" time, such as with the question, "What was God doing before creation?"



[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Elopez,
Was time created? You seem to say that it wasn't. You seem to say that time is just the idea of sequences from one event to the next.

 

[JoeyArnold]

I thought we already inhabited the fourth dimension.

God transcends time, but also encompasses, and exists within all time - at once.

Er72,
Is time in the fourth dimension?

 

[JoeyArnold]

Yes because to create the universe he has to exist independently of it.


Because he is outside time. That is how he knows the end from the beginning


Doesn't have to if God exists everywhere in the universe from beginning to end.

Through him all things were created.

He didn't that is a misunderstanding of the text.

Our redemption is in him, in Christ, if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation and all our sins are washed away.

explains how predestination is based on God's foreknowledge.

11:43

The one who IS.

No.

etc

Assyrian,
Christ wasn't slain before the foundation of the world?

 

[JoeyArnold]

Man, you sure do have a lot of questions that you are pretty persistent about asking. Why not take it a little slow instead of shooting off a million questions at once?
[FONT=&quot]
God is eternal (Deuteronomy 33:27; Isaiah 57:15), as these passages make it very clear. Eternity in relation to God's existence denotes there was no beginning and there will be no end to His existence, which further means that God was not created. Time as we experience it does have a beginning and does have an end. Time began at the first moment of creation, or said differently, with the first creative act time was generated as a result. So if God is eternal He existed causally prior to the existence of the universe and so time. If God exists prior to the existence of the universe and time, then God exists in a state of timelessness. Thus if God is eternal He is timeless, or outside of time, or atemporal.

[/FONT]So yes, God did create time as again it was the consequence of God's initial creative action. Time is logically posterior to the happenings of events, so God's acting is explanatorily prior to the existence of time. So as God acts time is the result. If God is above and outside of time, so to speak, then time does not restrict God in any manner whatsoever. So the future wouldn't need to happen first in order for God to know it, for the future is nothing but a time period that occurs after the present, and time does not restrict God. This makes any talk of God time traveling a little silly, as God is again outside of time. This also makes any talk of God doing something "before" creation incomprehensible, since there is no time "before" time, such as with the question, "What was God doing before creation?"

Elopez,
Is the question "What was God doing before Creation" irrelevant, beside the point, & erased to some extent, if God is in fact outside of time?

 

[elopez]

Elopez,
Was time created? You seem to say that it wasn't. You seem to say that time is just the idea of sequences from one event to the next.

I'm not sure how you gathered that I seem to be claiming time wasn't created, as I am pretty sure I explicitly said it was. Time is finite in the past and had a beginning, a beginning that came as a result of God's first creative act.

 

[elopez]

Elopez,
Is the question "What was God doing before Creation" irrelevant, beside the point, & erased to some extent, if God is in fact outside of time?

Yes that is what I'm saying. It is irrelevant because there is no time "before" time.

 

[Assyrian]

Assyrian,
Christ wasn't slain before the foundation of the world?

It is a common enough idea, but scripture is pretty insistent Jesus only died once.
Rom 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

But lets have a look at the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 AV And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So the way the AV puts it, it looks like the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. But there is another very similar verse we need to look at.

Rev 17:8 AV ...whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world...

It's their names that weren't written from the foundation of the world, not that the lamb was slain.

You have a book of life. How old is it? Old enough for our names to be written there before the foundation of the world. Whose book is it? It belongs to the lamb that was slain. When was he slain? 2000 thousand years ago, just outside Jerusalem.

There is another way to translate this passage that avoid all the contradiction. Rev 13:8 ESV ...everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Yes that is what I'm saying. It is irrelevant because there is no time "before" time.

Elopez,
We shouldn't think that God sat around for all eternity-past? That is what I think, because things were different back then, because God created time, because God is outside of time, because God is the Creator to the universe, to space, time, dimensions, & all. That is why we have to be careful with certain questions. That is why we shouldn't always put God in a box. Well, that might not exactly be why we shouldn't put God in a box, but we do have to realize that we are all stuck in this world. Who knows what things were like before everything was created. Who knows how things are going to be. But I do know that we should never complain about God. We should never be like, "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], oh my, God must have been so bored for all eternity past...... we are so going to then be very bored some day then in eternity future......"

 

[JoeyArnold]

It is a common enough idea, but scripture is pretty insistent Jesus only died once.
Rom 6:10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

But lets have a look at the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 AV And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So the way the AV puts it, it looks like the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. But there is another very similar verse we need to look at.

Rev 17:8 AV ...whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world...

It's their names that weren't written from the foundation of the world, not that the lamb was slain.

You have a book of life. How old is it? Old enough for our names to be written there before the foundation of the world. Whose book is it? It belongs to the lamb that was slain. When was he slain? 2000 thousand years ago, just outside Jerusalem.

There is another way to translate this passage that avoid all the contradiction. Rev 13:8 ESV ...everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.

Assyrian,
Did I say that Christ died twice? I never said twice? Why would I think that Christ died twice? How in the world could Christ died twice? Wouldn't dying twice disqualify the significance or power or purpose to such sacrifice?

 

[elopez]

Elopez,
We shouldn't think that God sat around for all eternity-past? That is what I think, because things were different back then, because God created time, because God is outside of time, because God is the Creator to the universe, to space, time, dimensions, & all. That is why we have to be careful with certain questions. That is why we shouldn't always put God in a box. Well, that might not exactly be why we shouldn't put God in a box, but we do have to realize that we are all stuck in this world. Who knows what things were like before everything was created. Who knows how things are going to be. But I do know that we should never complain about God. We should never be like, "[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], oh my, God must have been so bored for all eternity past...... we are so going to then be very bored some day then in eternity future......"

I'm not sure what you mean by eternity-past. Eternity would have no past as again there is no concept of time within eternity. I believe God existed eternally yes, as that was like the first thing I believe I said.

 

[Assyrian]

Assyrian,
Did I say that Christ died twice? I never said twice? Why would I think that Christ died twice? How in the world could Christ died twice? Wouldn't dying twice disqualify the significance or power or purpose to such sacrifice?

That's what I am saying. But if Christ died on Calvary and he was slain before the foundation of the world, that is twice. Unless people don't really mean he was really slain before the foundation of the world that is just some sort of metaphor describing God foreordaining Christ's death, but that it actually happened on Calvary.

 

[imacman9]

If God is timeless, then HE exists in the eternal past, the present, and the eternal future simultaneously; all events which have ever happened or ever will happen stand before Him right now. If God is timeless, then there never is any new information coming to Him. Therefor, HE can never change His mind, nor do His emotions ever rise or fall. If God is timeless, then all of His decisions were made before this world was created and the future is already set. On the other hand, if any of the biblical references to God changing His mind or showing emotional changes are to be taken literally, then God is - at least in some fashion - experiencing time with us.


I need to go to sleep now but if you would like i can expound upon this further.

- Daniel

 

[JoeyArnold]

If God is timeless, then HE exists in the eternal past, the present, and the eternal future simultaneously; all events which have ever happened or ever will happen stand before Him right now. If God is timeless, then there never is any new information coming to Him. Therefor, HE can never change His mind, nor do His emotions ever rise or fall. If God is timeless, then all of His decisions were made before this world was created and the future is already set. On the other hand, if any of the biblical references to God changing His mind or showing emotional changes are to be taken literally, then God is - at least in some fashion - experiencing time with us.


I need to go to sleep now but if you would like i can expound upon this further.

- Daniel

@ Daniel,
CAN or MIGHT God be both simultaneously timeless AND experimental?

 

[Assyrian]

sounds like the incarnation to me.

 

[lucaspa]

God transcends time, but also encompasses, and exists within all time - at once.

That's not standard Christian doctrine. The universe consists of matter/energy and spacetime. God, being outside the universe, exists "outside" of time.

 

[lucaspa]

If God is timeless, then HE exists in the eternal past, the present, and the eternal future simultaneously; all events which have ever happened or ever will happen stand before Him right now.

That doesn't work. God is outside the universe. To exist in the past, present, and future simulataneously means God is inside the universe. See the contradiction? Time is linear. God existed in the past, exists in the present, and will exist in the future. You see, the past is gone. The future hasn't happened yet. So He can't exist in the past and the future simultaneously.

If God is timeless, then there never is any new information coming to Him.

God's Creation says differently. God created a universe where it is impossible to know the future. Even for God. The future is not strictly deterministic. We can discuss possible reasons why God would create such a universe, but there is no doubt that the universe is like that.

Therefor, HE can never change His mind, nor do His emotions ever rise or fall.

Unfortunately, scripture records that God has changed His mind! For instance, in Kings there is the incident where God orders David to kill all the Amelekites and their cattle. David argues that the cattle should not be killed but taken by the Israelites. God changes His mind and agrees.

If God is timeless, then all of His decisions were made before this world was created and the future is already set.

And that's the problem. The data obtained by studying God's Creation shows definitively that the future is not set.