Is God out to get us?

[Mclachlan]

Strange logic. It's like saying the fact that someone's tall assumes that he's short!

No it's a different context referring to character not appearance. God loves righteousness, therefore he hates wickedness.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Yes he does save. And those whom he saves are no longer condemned. But as John says, those who believe not are condemned-- they wilfully reject his salvation.

So Adam is greater than Jesus? The little fishies escape the net. God will be all in a few, and many of your loved ones will burn in hideous torment while you enjoy the heavenly delights?

Sounds like someone needs saving.

 

[Mclachlan]

A question to all universalists. Do you think the devil will be saved? Serious question. I did not want it to get to this point.

 

[Hmm]

No it's a different context referring to character not appearance. God loves righteousness, therefore he hates wickedness.

Okay, so to change the context, the logic is that I love humour therefore I hate being serious. Life is not as binary as that comrade.

 

[Saint Steven]

It is not an assumption. God is love, but love is not God. God is righteous, therefore he is not unrighteous. God is just, therefore he is not unjust. God is truth, therefore he is not false etc. It is a logical and factual conclusion.

But if you can say, "God is righteous, therefore he is not unrighteous.", how can you say that "The fact that he loves assumes he hates."? Wouldn't the same logic say that God is love, therefore he cannot hate?

How do you feel about humans that are two-faced?

 

[Mclachlan]

Okay, so to change the context, the logic is that I love humour therefore I hate being serious. Life is not as binary as that comrade.

I'm referring to God and His immutability, not to us.

 

[Hmm]

A question to all universalists. Do you think the devil will be saved? Serious question. I did not want it to get to this point.

That's what scripture tells us:

In him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
Colossians 1:19–20.​

 

[Hmm]

I'm referring to God and His immutability, not to us.

Good escape clause. What is God's "immutability" and how is it relevant to what we've been saying?

 

[Mclachlan]

Good escape clause.

I'm not trying to escape. I confess my logic is off line. But please see post #216, #217 to see what I am failing miserably to express.

 

[Saint Steven]

A question to all universalists. Do you think the devil will be saved? Serious question. I did not want it to get to this point.

Not everyone will agree with me, but YES, I believe that even the Devil will be saved. This will be the ULTIMATE expression of love, mercy and forgiveness. I think he will be the last to be redeemed. Just as Adam and Eve led the parade in the Harrowing of Hell, so Satan will bring up the rear in the restoration. Full circle redemption.

All creation cannot be restored unless ALL creation is restored. If old slew-foot has knees, he too will bow and acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord. What a day that will be!

 

[Mclachlan]

I recant any error in logic I expressed especially as it pertains to God's character. Please forgive.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

A question to all universalists. Do you think the devil will be saved? Serious question. I did not want it to get to this point.

The devil is just a creature. How long can he resist the Hound of Heaven?

See that's why we're 'more than conquerors in Christ', because the victory over the enemy is true conversion, not the apparent victory of Caesar/ the devil that only produces perfunctory genuflection or at best an impermanent state of deception.

So imagine the devil repentant in spirit and in truth, confessing his sins and seeking forgiveness from Christ. Then restored to his angelic status. Has to happen.

 

[Mclachlan]

Wow. Okay, I think now we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Revelation 20:10

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

[Saint Steven]

I recant any error in logic I expressed especially as it pertains to God's character. Please forgive.

Forgiveness granted.
Hopefully you are beginning to see that there are two sides to these issues and both biblical. We've been hammering on the character of God issue because that's what this all boils down to.

This amazingly unbiased video is very educational on the subject.

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

 

[Saint Steven]

Wow. Okay, I think now we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Revelation 20:10

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Here's what you need to come to terms with.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Wow. Okay, I think now we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Revelation 20:10

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15

15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21:8

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

None of those verses, properly interpreted, are inconsistent with universal salvation.

See, Christ's victory consists in SALVATION, in true conversion of his enemies. He makes his enemies his friends, we who were once far brought near etc.

You're working off a carnal paradigm that sees God's victory as the power to smash his enemies into next week. Of course He can do that, but only where absolutely necessary in order to bring them to repentance. Salvation is the Omega Plan. Wolf and lamb lie down together, swords into plowshares, the nations and kings of the earth repentant, no more curse, peace on earth, much rejoicing.

 

[Clare73]

Renniks - Congrats, you're on the shining path. Now just follow that to its logical conclusion: God unchanging, sovereign and omnipotent. Therefore, all will be ultimately reconciled unto Him.

See, universalism is not so hard, in fact it's inescapable.

Unless as with Pharoah, where God had another plan (Exodus 4:21-24) for Pharaoh which God did not reveal to him, so God has another plan instead of the "universalism" which you think is "inescapable."

 

[Clare73]

Here's what you need to come to terms with.

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

That old saw has been demonstrated to be false many times, by demonstrating precisely what the Scriptures show aionios to mean, and that is "everlasting."

 

[renniks]

Renniks - Congrats, you're on the shining path. Now just follow that to its logical conclusion: God unchanging, sovereign and omnipotent. Therefore, all will be ultimately reconciled unto Him.

See, universalism is not so hard, in fact it's inescapable.

It's anything but inescapable.
God is also a gentleman in my experience. He doesn't take those who don't want him.

 

[DavidPT]

Not everyone will agree with me, but YES, I believe that even the Devil will be saved. This will be the ULTIMATE expression of love, mercy and forgiveness. I think he will be the last to be redeemed. Just as Adam and Eve led the parade in the Harrowing of Hell, so Satan will bring up the rear in the restoration. Full circle redemption.

All creation cannot be restored unless ALL creation is restored. If old slew-foot has knees, he too will bow and acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord. What a day that will be!

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Can you then logically demonstrate how he can be tormented day and night for ever and ever and eventually be saved at the same time? How can someone that is saved be tormented while in a saved state? Being tormented day and night for ever and ever is not compatable with being saved day and night for ever and ever, is it?