Is God Entitled to Take Lives?

Do you feel He is entitled to kill peoples?

  • yes

    Votes: 17 81.0%
  • no

    Votes: 4 19.0%

  • Total voters
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God not existing could explain anything, which is exactly why it is a totally facile point you are making here. It is also irrelevant to the thread, since nothing cannot be entitled to anything either.
I think you've missed the point.
There are two possibilities.
One, the Christian God exists.
Two, the Christian God is a character in a man-made religion.

If option two is correct, then stories in the Bible about a loving God committing horrors require no explanation. It's just a story made up by barbaric people. Simple.

If, on the other hand, a loving God is real, and if Christians believe that any parts of the Bible about Him killing innocents are also real, then they have some 'splaining to do. Which they've been trying to do in this thread, with limited success.

See?
 
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thomas_t

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Perhaps God could tell them not to?
oh what a great idea ;).
Let's assume 1 in ten loving parents would follow this order. The rest are parents who bring their children to Canaan.
So when would this angel nanny mission stop according to you? Never? When the first parents come to leave their little ones there, this mission perpetuates itself, I'm afraid.
It seems you want a different creation? A creation where angel nannies bring up the children?
That's not the world God created.
Thomas
 
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oh what a great idea ;).
Let's assume 1 in ten loving parents would follow this order. The rest are parents who bring their children to Canaan.
So when would this angel nanny mission stop according to you? Never? When the first parents come to leave their little ones there, this mission perpetuates itself, I'm afraid.
It seems you want a different creation? A creation where angel nannies bring up the children?
That's not the world God created.
Thomas
Can you tell me why it is you're so sure that God would never do these things? Because your idea that He would not seems rather at odds with other things in the Bible. Did not God rain down manna from heaven for Moses and his people? Did not Jesus use fish and bread to feed five thousand people? Did not Jesus heal anyone who came to Him? And yet you seem very certain that God would not send angelic guards to save defenseless infants.
 
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thomas_t

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Can you tell me why it is you're so sure that God would never do these things? Because your idea that He would not seems rather at odds with other things in the Bible. Did not God rain down manna from heaven for Moses and his people? Did not Jesus use fish and bread to feed five thousand people? Did not Jesus heal anyone who came to Him? And yet you seem very certain that God would not send angelic guards to save defenseless infants.
The question is very good.
I think, we need to remember who it was that invited Israel to go to the Holy Land: it was God. Then God assures the survival, I guess. I'm simplifying here, many Israelites did die... but this is more or less how I would answer this.
If you invite people... then it's up to you to host them.
But the question was really good, I appreciate discussing with you.

Thomas
 
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The question is very good.
I think, we need to remember who it was that invited Israel to go to the Holy Land: it was God. Then God assures the survival, I guess. I'm simplifying here, many Israelites did die... but this is more or less how I would answer this.
If you invite people... then it's up to you to host them.
But the question was really good, I appreciate discussing with you.

Thomas
Okay. But doesn't this seem to be making some exceptions? You seem to be saying that God took care of the Israelites because it was the right thing to do. Fine.

But what about those babies we were talking about earlier? It's just not right to leave a load of babies to be slaughtered. Why wouldn't God protect them? Don't you think this is taking "leave them to it to learn from their own mistakes" a bit too far?

And what about other things in the Bible? Were they just "the right thing to do?" I have great difficulty accepting that they were.

Let's quote some Dawkins:
"The book of Numbers tells how God incited Moses to attack the Midianites. His army made short work of slaying all the men, and they burned all the Midianite cities, but they spared the women and children. This merciful restraint by his soldiers infuriated Moses, and he gave orders that all the boy children should be killed, and all the women who were not virgins. ‘But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves’ (Numbers 31: 18). No, Moses was not a great role model for modern moralists."

Dawkins, Richard. The God Delusion.

I think you are going to answer that yes, it was the right thing to do. When God orders something, how can it be otherwise? But this goes against what you said above. Because it doesn't sound like the right thing to do at all. Would you do it, if God told you to?

You may also be interested in this:
(Num. 31:18) Why were the virgins spared from being killed? | Evidence Unseen
It seems to me, reading it, that the author is deliberately looking for the most generous possible explanation. "The text never explicitly says that the women were raped."
Also, while attempting to craft a defence of "take all the women" the article says nothing about "kill all the young boys," which Moses also ordered.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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There is no need for that tone. Your choice of pronouns rendered your post ambiguous, so my first action was to address that ambiguity. I then gave you as full a rendering of an answer as seemed appropriate in the circumstances.

Had you said, "I wish to accept your implicit challenge regarding alleged differences between the person of God you perceive in the NT and that in the old, but first I require more information," then I would have directed you to this, from the same post you initially responded to. "I am, of course, open to a (much) more detailed argument on the point. This thread would be inappropriate for that. If you, or anyone, wishes to take up the task I suggest a new thread and pm to notify me that it has been made."

Now given the faulty suggestion that I was "playing games" I half anticipate that you will now accuse me of wilfully avoiding the question. My response would then be that I have answered the question adequately for this thread and am fully ready to take it up in more detail in a separate thread if you so wish. If this was not in your mind I apologise for the faulty expectation.
No, I don't intend on accusing you of much of anything, so long as you don't proceed to feign full and legitimate engagement like some other skeptics seem to do here. I've only fired a warning shot across your bow, thus far, but I know from what I've seen from you over the past, you're more of an agnostic rather than a die-hard atheist with less of an axe to grind.

As for the discussion you alluded to involving the supposed discontinuity between the O.T. God and the N.T. Jesus, I'd say that that is something I don't have the time to take up right now elsewhere. Sorry.
 
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Ophiolite

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No, I don't intend on accusing you of much of anything, so long as you don't proceed to feign full and legitimate engagement like some other skeptics seem to do here. I've only fired a warning shot across your bow, thus far, but I know from what I've seen from you over the past, you're more of an agnostic rather than a die-hard atheist with less of an axe to grind.
Fair enough. Now I shall fire a warning shot across your bow. If future posts to me are equally patronising, implying you have some special authority to fire warning shots, or seem just slightly tempted to "categorise" me (again in a patronising manner), I shall take appropriate action.

As for the discussion you alluded to involving the supposed discontinuity between the O.T. God and the N.T. Jesus, I'd say that that is something I don't have the time to take up right now elsewhere. Sorry.
That's fine. The offer was made to indicate that, doubtful as I am of its value, I was and am fully prepared to answer the question in full. Frankly I am pleased you don't have the time as it would require me to read again and annotate the NT, then summarise my views in several lengthy posts - then their would be the replies to the replies, usque ad mortem. :)
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Fair enough. Now I shall fire a warning shot across your bow. If future posts to me are equally patronising, implying you have some special authority to fire warning shots, or seem just slightly tempted to "categorise" me (again in a patronising manner), I shall take appropriate action.
Appropriate action?

That's fine. The offer was made to indicate that, doubtful as I am of its value, I was and am fully prepared to answer the question in full. Frankly I am pleased you don't have the time as it would require me to read again and annotate the NT, then summarise my views in several lengthy posts - then their would be the replies to the replies, usque ad mortem. :)
All is well that ends well, I always say. :rolleyes:
 
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Ophiolite

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Appropriate action?

All is well that ends well, I always say. :rolleyes:
Forum regulations prohibit me from mentioning such action in posts, although such actions are wholly consistent with forum regulations.
 
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Larniavc

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would this or wouldn't this undermine the principle of parental responsibility to care for their children?
So what if I did, if children did not have to die?

Are you really suggesting that having one’s parental responsibility undermined is worse than having you kids killed?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Forum regulations prohibit me from mentioning such action in posts, although such actions are wholly consistent with forum regulations.

Well, my motto is "Retort, don't Report nor Ignore ... anyone!" :sorry:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'm sure that's working well for you.
Where is the raised eyebrows smilie?

Actually, it is. Besides, it's not like I'm here to 'win' folks to Christ. I'm really not. (Oh, shocker!) :fire:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Fair enough. Now I shall fire a warning shot across your bow. If future posts to me are equally patronising, implying you have some special authority to fire warning shots, or seem just slightly tempted to "categorise" me (again in a patronising manner), I shall take appropriate action.

That's fine. The offer was made to indicate that, doubtful as I am of its value, I was and am fully prepared to answer the question in full. Frankly I am pleased you don't have the time as it would require me to read again and annotate the NT, then summarise my views in several lengthy posts - then their would be the replies to the replies, usque ad mortem. :)

Then again, if you think you're up to setting me straight on how the God of the O.T. "doesn't comport with" the God of the N.T., then by all means--and you will need ALL the means at your disposal--please proceed!!! :ahah:
 
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Ophiolite

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Then again, if you think you're up to setting me straight on how the God of the O.T. "doesn't comport with" the God of the N.T., then by all means--and you will need ALL the means at your disposal--please proceed!!! :ahah:
I think I used the word express rather than comport. Comport smacks to much of Amy Vanderbilt's Book of Etiquette. But that's just in passing.

I'd think I might well have a reasonable chance of altering your perception - who knows if that would make you straight or bent - but my interest in doing so is on the distant leg of an asymptotic curve approaching zero.

You seem to have lost track of of the sequence of events here. I'll save you the trouble of backtracking. Here's a summary.
Post #7 I noted that "This [perceived] conflict between the Old and New Testament expressions of God is one of the factors that increased my doubts as to the authenticity of Scripture as the Word of God."
Post #117 In response thomas t asserts "Actually, the Jesus of the Old Covenant and the Jesus of the New are one and the same."
Post #123 I replied "Nevertheless, as I stated, it is my perception that the expression of God, that is his behaviour and tenor of his guidance, differs markedly between OT and NT. < snip> it would require more than a simple assertion to cause me to change my mind."
I also noted "I am, of course, open to a (much) more detailed argument on the point. This thread would be inappropriate for that. If you, or anyone, wishes to take up the task I suggest a new thread and pm to notify me that it has been made."
Post#125 You then asked "Which books of the New Testament do you accept as 'representing' to us the person of Jesus?"
Post#126 I responded by implicitly objecting to what I still suspect was a rhetorical trick of substituting "us" for "you", where "you" would reference myself. I also answered your question in, for the context, reasonable detail. Recall that my introduction of my perception of a NT/OT dichotomy was to provide context in my reply to the (clarified) OP. I had no interest in justifying that position or promoting that position. I provided you with a reply out of courtesy.
Post#127 Despite this, in this post you accused me of playing games and demanded I provide a detailed accounting of the NT Books that fed into my perception. You also seemed to think I had challenged forum members in post#123 (see above, last three sentences.) That was not a challenge; that was a expression of readiness to be open minded to arguments that might dissuade me from my current view.
Post #139 I chided you for the tone of your previous post. I accepted that my post #123 had included an implicit challenge, (though none was intended).

Now we leapfrog a few posts that add nothing of substance and come to the quoted post that opens this thread. It looks suspiciously like a rhetorical trick, a switching of the goalposts. You issue a challenge you know I have no interest in accepting,have never had any interest in, but imply that my "refusal" to rise to the challenge is because I lack both the skill and the courage to make the attempt. Well really? I would have expected better from you.

Now we have interrupted this thread with enough off-topic frivolity. I shall not be responding further.
 
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thomas_t

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Don't you think this is taking "leave [the babies] to [death, added mine] to learn from their own mistakes" a bit too far?
I never said this. I wondered how the babies would survive according to you.
Let's quote some Dawkins:
"The book of Numbers tells how God incited Moses to attack the Midianites. His army made short work of slaying all the men, and they burned all the Midianite cities, but they spared the women and children. This merciful restraint by his soldiers infuriated Moses, and he gave orders that all the boy children should be killed, and all the women who were not virgins. ‘But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves’ (Numbers 31: 18). No, Moses was not a great role model for modern moralists."
The Midianite women thanked and sacrificed to other gods, see Numbers 25:3.
During the time in the desert, the Iraelites were still dependent on manna that came directly from God. They didn't cultivate it, it came directly from God as a gift.
I think God didn't want to give them extra manna portions for the newly won Midianite women (+babies) just to see that they later sacrificed to other gods.

Good point though.
 
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thomas_t

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Are you really suggesting that having one’s parental responsibility undermined is worse than having you kids killed?
what do you think?
did I say this?
No, I said, what if God wouldn't have killed them, according to you? Should they have died one day after? How long do you think babies can survive if their mothers are gone?
What is your scenario? You say babies are innocent so they must survive to die from starvation one day after? or what is it?
Thomas
 
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Larniavc

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what do you think?
did I say this?
No, I said, what if God wouldn't have killed them, according to you? Should they have died one day after? How long do you think babies can survive if their mothers are gone?
What is your scenario? You say babies are innocent so they must survive to die from starvation one day after? or what is it?
Thomas
No, you said “wouldn't this undermine the principle of parental responsibility to care for their children?”
 
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BigV

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what do you think?
did I say this?
No, I said, what if God wouldn't have killed them, according to you? Should they have died one day after? How long do you think babies can survive if their mothers are gone?
What is your scenario? You say babies are innocent so they must survive to die from starvation one day after? or what is it?
Thomas
It is amazing, the level of mental acrobatics you need to resort to, to justify your "good and moral" God killing women and children.

Isn't your God all powerful, and with unlimited resources to do the good that he really wants to do? So, why isn't he able to execute his good and wonderful plan without resorting to killing women and children? And in the process of having other people killed, God makes his chosen people cold killers. Can you imagine living in the ancient Israel, assuming Bible stories are true, and witnessing people being pelted with stones to death?
 
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what do you think?
did I say this?
No, I said, what if God wouldn't have killed them, according to you? Should they have died one day after? How long do you think babies can survive if their mothers are gone?
What is your scenario? You say babies are innocent so they must survive to die from starvation one day after? or what is it?
Thomas
Thomas, why are you doubting so? Why do you have so little faith in God? Know you not that He is the mightiest of mighties, holding the Earth in the hollow of His hand? Is your faith so weak that you listen to your doubts? "How could this happen, and who will take care of them, and what is going to happen if this or that befalls them?"
Whence come these cavilling doubts? Do you not know that you are questioning God Himself, and that every objection that sullies your lips is asking how God could answer them? Because He is the Lord of Hosts, and master of all, that is now He shall answer your questions.
Have faith, brother! If God is with us, who can be against us? You ask how these defenceless babies can live? They shall live because God is a good God, and would not abandon the weak and helpless. They shall live because it is inconceivable that the God of love and life should wish them to be murdered.
 
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