Is God a Libertarian?

Hazelelponi

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Who is it then, who blends Christianity and the secular world, trying to pass laws based on Christianity into worldly governments?

Because if we're keeping the two things separate on the one hand, yet simultaneously blending them together on the other by voting in a "Christian" manner... Then isn't that total hypocrisy?

Basically this is saying there is a dividing line, but then there is no line.

It depends on their reasoning. For instance, I'm against abortion on the secular level and for reasons that are quite separate from my faith - although faith does inform my idea of right and wrong...

So, it may or may not be a hypocrisy or a misunderstanding of scripture.

Everyone believes in laws that are a positive benefit for society, and we all base those ideas on something -often, it's not a matter of trying to make secular society into the church but living in the type of society we feel comfortable in.

There are extremes both on the right and the left, however, that do try to make secular society into the church.

I believe Biblically this is more than a mistake, but a sin against God...
 
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Landon Caeli

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It depends on their reasoning. For instance, I'm against abortion on the secular level and for reasons that are quite separate from my faith - although faith does inform my idea of right and wrong...

I feel like it's okay for a Libertarian to be for banning abortion considering it's similar to murder. And murder is the ultimate anti-liberty.

Also, oddly enough, there are pro-choice people who actually consider themselves advocates of "human rights" (more like adult rights, maybe).

Human rights (including those of children) is another example of liberty (libertarianism).
 
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QvQ

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This (all against all), would be Anarchism. Different from the more civilized Libertarianism, the latter being a rejection of Authoritarianism, and the former being a rejection of civility.

...IMO.
Anarchy, libertarianism, authoritarianism are all social contracts. The basis of collective social contracts relies on the individual. One drug addict, damaged spiritually, morally and bodily, who has degenerated into personal anarchy, becomes part of the larger civil contract when there are millions of drug addicts wreaking havoc on the the body politic . It is not authoritarian to include that behavior in the secular law whether or not it is moral law. (It is against moral law and a sin)
God is not a Libertarian. God is Authority unto Himself, absolute, but no man or group of men can claim authority unto themselves.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Anarchy, libertarianism, authoritarianism are all civil contracts. The basis of collective civil contracts relies on the individual. One drug addict, damaged spiritually, morally and bodily, who has degenerated into personal anarchy, becomes part of the larger civil contract when there are millions of drug addicts wreaking havoc on the the body politic . It is not authoritarian to include that behavior in the secular law whether or not it is moral law. (It is against moral law and a sin)
God is not a Libertarian. God is Authority, absolute, but no man or group of men can claim authority unto themselves.

But anarchy, libertarianism and authoritarianism are not contracts... They are philosophies.

Also, if God is not libertarian, then why don't we see Him stopping sin, rather than allowing it all across the entire world? He seems to be the ultimate giver of liberty... Why not follow his lead..?

...It cannot be sinful to follow God's lead. And morally right to act the opposite of God.
 
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QvQ

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But anarchy, libertarianism and authoritarianism are not contracts... They are philosophies.

Also, if God is not libertarian, then why don't we see Him stopping sin, rather than allowing it all across the entire world? He seems to be the ultimate giver of liberty... Why not follow his lead..?

...It cannot be sinful to follow God's lead. And morally right to act the opposite of God.
The world is enslaved by sin. God gives liberty through Redemption and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. To follow God's Will is to seek salvation.
Meanwhile the weary world must find ways to establish a civil society while avoiding anarchy, tin god government and other flawed social contracts..
Anarchy, libertarianism and authoritarianism are social contracts if and when the philosophies are codified in civil law. Marx wrote Des Kapital, that was philosophy. The Communist instituted communism as a social contract and codified law.
 
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Landon Caeli

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The world is enslaved by sin. God gives liberty through Redemption and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. To follow God's Will is to seek salvation.
Meanwhile the weary world must find ways to establish a civil society while avoiding anarchy, tin god government and other flawed social contracts..
Anarchy, libertarianism and authoritarianism are social contracts if and when the philosophies are codified in civil law. Marx wrote Des Kapital, that was philosophy. The Communist instituted communism as a social contract and codified law.

But even before there was a need for redemption, before the fall, there was still a libertarian God who allowed Adam and Eve the option to destroy themselves.
 
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RDKirk

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It’s not really liberty when death, eternal punishment, or serious suffering is the consequence.

That's also why it's not "free will." Free will presumes that a moral agent is able to make any choice without coercion or consequence imposed by another moral agent.
 
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QvQ

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A person who has been told by the Authority that jumping off a roof will invoke the Law of Gravity and all the consequences thereof is not given a choice between two options, gravity and a magic flying cape. There was only one option. Did Adam even know what death was? Adam disobeyed God. The only "option' was Obey. That is Authority, not libertarian.
The choice was Obey God. The sin was the sin of Lucifer, rebellion against God
 
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Landon Caeli

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A person who has been told by the Authority that jumping off a roof will invoke the Law of Gravity and all the consequences thereof is not given a choice between two options, gravity and a magic flying cape. There was only one option. Did Adam even know what death was? Adam disobeyed God. The only "option' was Obey. That is Authority, not libertarian.
The choice was Obey God. The sin was the sin of Lucifer, rebellion against God

Or was the choice to listen to God or listen to Lucifer... Therein lay a choice... And God was watching... And not preventing it...
 
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Sketcher

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A concept was brought before me once, that has stuck in my head for years... If God communicates his moral laws to us, through religions, but yet gives us the free will to decide for ourselves how to act, then does that mean Libertarianism is the holiest, and best political philosophy of all?

For instance, I can choose abortion, drugs, homosexuality, racism, fowl-mouthed bigotry toward protected groups and blasphemy towards Islam... And I can literally do these things if I choose to or not through my own free will... Yet I may pay a punishment in the end, after it's done, but I'm allowed to live my life whatever way if I choose according to God's nature in the world.

...So should our politics be the same way? Should people be allowed to sin legally the way God allows, as long as we're not physically harming others, or should we be for *preventing* sin, which God does not actually do?

<Disclaimer> This is not about me, this is a philosophical concept that has been presented to me in the past, not really intended for anyone to become defensive over, or for high-fives among tribes... This is just a basic conversation for discussion.
Well, God himself is the God-King, which is the antithesis of Libertarianism. As for what he wants us to do before Jesus returns and sets up his government, that's a different story.

There are also differing grades of Libertarianism. It spans from small-government Milton Friedman types, all the way into anarcho-capitalism. Arguing for the virtue of Libertarianism requires clarifying which Libertarianism that one is arguing for.

That being said, the spectrum of Libertarians agree that the nature of man is to look out for his own needs and desires first, and when given power, this remains constant; it will result in people doing what they feel they need to do to maintain that power or aggregate more, and to abuse that power when they can get away with it. This is 100% consistent with the Bible's teaching on sin. What Libertarians believe is that when people have choices, that reduces the opportunity for other people to aggregate and abuse their power. This is observably true. They will also point to many examples of the availability of choices resulting in lifting many people out of abject poverty, and raising the standards of living that most people, not just the rich, enjoy. They will also point to more choices leading to more peaceful interactions between people. These positive effects of relative liberty make a strong case for the morality of a Libertarian approach.

Personally, I believe a Libertarian society (in the political sense) would need the church to guide it in terms of social morality. Is a Prohibition-like approach counter-productive in many ways? Yes. Does that mean that people should choose to smoke crack? No. Under Libertarianism, the government won't tell people to not smoke crack, or it may not exist at all. Therefore, moral guidance would have to come through the church.

I don't think we as a society are religious enough for this, sadly.
 
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QvQ

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Or was the choice to listen to God or listen to Lucifer... Therein lay a choice... And God was watching... And not preventing it...
Obey or Die, is not a choice. It is an operation of Law, which God told Adam. It matters not one whit whether a person accidentally fell off the roof, was pushed off the roof, was seduced off the roof, decided to jump off, never heard of the law of gravity or simply didn't believe it, the Law of Gravity rules. Adam did not Obey God and Adam died. All of Adam's descendants were dead in sin until the Resurrection. Man could not by his free will or choice reverse the Death of Adam and re-enter the Garden of Eden. He was cast out. No choice, no option. Only through Christ and the Resurrection was mankind reconciled with God.
The World is enslaved by sin. God does not "allow" sin. Sin was and is the state of the world by operation of God's Law concerning Adam. Matt 3:12 and Matt 13:30 states the wheat and the tares will grow together. How the wheat and the tares grow together in some sort of civilized society under a social contract is the problem for the wheat and tares.
 
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Sparagmos

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I think that's why the election process, including "ballot measures", becomes an important factor in a free society.

The opposite of freedom, is having a central authority (Authoritarianism). This is IMO, an evil, "anti-Christ" way of governing... Since Christ and God seem libertarian in my view.
God isn’t a central authority?
 
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RDKirk

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God isn’t a central authority?

We believe God is "Lord of Lord" and "King of Kings." Most of us believe everything is in accord with God's sovereign will--most of our theologies would crumble if it were, in fact, possible for a human to thwart God's sovereign will.

So at best, the universe can only seem undeterministic. I think Stephen Hawking actually came to that conclusion: The universe is deterministic but it seems like it's not, so we behave as though it is not.
 
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Landon Caeli

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God isn’t a central authority?

He is, but he doesn't rule that way. Otherwise, we would have no need for consciousness, or even a conscience...

Instead, God allows us to sin if that's what we choose.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Obey or Die, is not a choice. It is an operation of Law, which God told Adam. It matters not one whit whether a person accidentally fell off the roof, was pushed off the roof, was seduced off the roof, decided to jump off, never heard of the law of gravity or simply didn't believe it, the Law of Gravity rules. Adam did not Obey God and Adam died. All of Adam's descendants were dead in sin until the Resurrection. Man could not by his free will or choice reverse the Death of Adam and re-enter the Garden of Eden. He was cast out. No choice, no option. Only through Christ and the Resurrection was mankind reconciled with God.
The World is enslaved by sin. God does not "allow" sin. Sin was and is the state of the world by operation of God's Law concerning Adam. Matt 3:12 and Matt 13:30 states the wheat and the tares will grow together. How the wheat and the tares grow together in some sort of civilized society under a social contract is the problem for the wheat and tares.

But the point is that God could have stomped on the head of Lucifer in the garden, and appeared to Adam and Eve to prevent them from being decieved... Yet he offered *liberty* to his creation by not doing anything to stop it.

We see this same thing with Christ, who went so far as to allow sinners to nail him to a cross, and betray him... And did nothing to prevent it... That's *liberty*.
 
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QvQ

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We believe God is "Lord of Lord" and "King of Kings." Most of us believe everything is in accord with God's sovereign will--most of our theologies would crumble if it were, in fact, possible for a human to thwart God's sovereign will.

So at best, the universe can only seem undeterministic. I think Stephen Hawking actually came to that conclusion: The universe is deterministic but it seems like it's not, so we behave as though it is not.
Laplace said that is we knew the position, velocity, mass of every object in the universe, we could accurately predict the future. Hawking agreed with that and stated that Newton's determinism was correct. What is "undeterministic" is what is too great number to count and the lack of necessary math. Newton had to develop Calculus to prove his theories. Chaos theory is developing the mathematics of random.
 
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QvQ

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He is, but he doesn't rule that way. Otherwise, we would have no need for consciousness, or even a conscience...

Instead, God allows us to sin if that's what we choose.
That is one question I am still pondering, whether man knows right from wrong. If unregenerate man has a conscience it is a very weak, confused and feeble organ given the number and enormity of his sins.
 
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