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Is God a liar?

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by Open Heart, May 16, 2015.

  1. RGW00

    RGW00 Member

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    What I am saying is quit focusing on that fact. I was throwing out a lot of points there and you chose to pick that one apart.
     
  2. HighCherub

    HighCherub Active Member

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    I'm neither a typical Creationist or Theistic Evolutionist. I have many reasons for what I hold to, but without telling those reasons it will seem bizarre to most people.

    What I believe is that the world is old and it's been inhabited from the start- instead of animals evolving, they simply went extinct, and God replaced them with other species.
    This went on for a long time until God made Man.

    Evolution is simply an illusion that anti-theists want to see.
     
  3. Papias

    Papias Listening to TW4

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    Um, are you aware of the billions of data points from dozens of different fields that all support evolution? That's like saying "atoms might not exist, after all technology glitches all the time".

    False. Scientists (aside from those who were paid off by big tobacco) were trying to tell people smoking was hazardous for decades, and it was a well-funded marketing campaign (and paid off politicians) who obscured what the scientists were saying. It's the same as climate change today, where scientists know it's going on, and industry is trying to obscure the reality of climate change.

    No, it's not. Evolution by common descent is accepted by practically all scientists (including those who are Christian) due to the lifetimes of evidence. It's about as "controversial" as the idea that humans have been abducted by aliens.

    We have evidence from literally dozens of different dating methods, and all the different methods are consistent with a 4.6 billion year old earth. Your statement above is like saying "For one thing, no one knows if the earth is flat, I don't care how knowledgeable you are about science or the Bible. It could be anywhere from completely flat to having a little curvature."

    In Christ-

    Papias
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2017
  4. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Where does it say that mountains are everlasting? Mountains most assuredly are not everlasting. Plate tectonics builds up and tears down over the course of billions of years.
     
  5. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    No Young Earth Preacher ever mentioned that? Odd.

    Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains ...
    with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
    the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...
    //biblehub.com/deuteronomy/33-15.htm - 17k


    Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made ...
    ... The ancient mountains crumbled and the age-old hills collapsed-- but he marches
    on forever. ... The ancient mountains were crumbled. The age-old hills collapsed. ...
    //biblehub.com/habakkuk/3-6.htm - 18k


    Psalm 76:4 You are radiant with light, more majestic than ...
    ... You are the radiant one. You are more majestic than the ancient mountains. .... ...
    //biblehub.com/psalms/76-4.htm - 16k

    Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains ...
    with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
    the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...
    //biblehub.com/deuteronomy/33-15.htm - 17k


    Micah 6:2 "Hear, you mountains, the LORD's accusation; listen, you ...
    "Hear, you mountains, the LORD's accusation; listen, you everlasting
    foundations of the earth. For the LORD has a case against his ...
    //biblehub.com/micah/6-2.htm - 18k


    Psalm 76:4 You are radiant with light, more majestic than ...
    ... You are glorious and more majestic than the everlasting mountains. .... ...
    //biblehub.com/psalms/76-4.htm - 16k


    Genesis 49:26 Your father's blessings are greater than the ...
    ... Your father's blessings will prove to be stronger than blessings from the
    eternal mountains or bounties from the everlasting hills. ...
    //biblehub.com/genesis/49-26.htm - 19k

    Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains ...
    with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
    the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...
    //biblehub.com/deuteronomy/33-15.htm - 17k


    Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made ...
    ... He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal
    mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low. ...
    //biblehub.com/habakkuk/3-6.htm - 18k


    Genesis 49:26 Your father's blessings are greater than the ...
    ... The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my parents,
    up to the bounties of the everlasting hills. May they ...
    //biblehub.com/genesis/49-26.htm - 19k
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
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  6. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    So you are sure that the earth is ancient?

    Deuteronomy 33:15 with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains ...
    with the choicest gifts of the ancient mountains and
    the fruitfulness of the everlasting hills; ...
    //biblehub.com/deuteronomy/33-15.htm - 17k


    Habakkuk 3:6 He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made ...
    ... He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal
    mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low. ...
    //biblehub.com/habakkuk/3-6.htm - 18k


    Genesis 49:26 Your father's blessings are greater than the ...
    ... The blessings of your father are mighty beyond the blessings of my parents,
    up to the bounties of the everlasting hills. May they ...
    //biblehub.com/genesis/49-26.htm - 19k


    Psalm 76:4 You are radiant with light, more majestic than ...
    ... Thou enlightenest wonderfully from the everlasting hills. .... ...
    //biblehub.com/psalms/76-4.htm - 16k
     
  7. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    That has nothing to do with my post.
     
  8. KomatiiteBIF

    KomatiiteBIF Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Why believe that these animals went extinct and God created a new wave, rather than just recognizing their change as a product of mutation mixed with time? We know mutations regularly occur in all living things. We know that morphology is determined by genes that mutate. So if the genes change, the morphology changes.

    So why would God create, then destroy countless times, as opposed to creating life and then allowing it to change through mutation?
     
  9. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the quotes. I genuinely wasn't familiar with that turn of phrase. Quite interesting.

    I have no problems with figurative language in the Bible. I also don't use the Bible as a science textbook.
     
  10. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    So then the mountains are ancient and everlasting!
    That's the Truth.
     
  11. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Depends on whether He said it or it was said by a man in worship, and what that man actually meant by it.

    But regarding what "ancient" means:

    The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky proclaims the work of His hands.
    Day after day they pour out speech; night after night they communicate knowledge
    --Psalm 19


    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.

    For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
    -- Romans 1

    God holds all men accountable for how they respond to the testimony of Him made by creation itself.

    That means creation must tell the truth without recourse to spiritual revelation. It means that the information gathered by observation must be correct, or else men could not be held accountable.

    In order for Romans 1 to be applicable, what is observable in nature must be true.

    Observation of nature indicates an extremely ancient creation. Whether observed at the sub-atomic level or at the macro-cosmic level, all indications of observation are of an extremely ancient creation.

    Now, based on what I said earlier, it's indeed possible for God to have said, six thousand years ago, "Let there be a creation that looks at every point as though it is billions of years older than it really is."

    Yes, He could do that. But the resulting creation--which looks at every point billions of years older than it really is...would then actually be billions of years old for all intents and purposes. "A difference that makes no difference is no difference."

    I have no problem with an eternal God having created the universe 6,000 years ago or 15 billion years ago.

    But for Romans 1 to be effective, then what is observable in creation must be the truth--because that has to do with eternal salvation and eternal damnation. If it seems to conflict with the way we interpret scripture, then we must be interpreting scripture wrong.
     
  12. Paul of Eugene OR

    Paul of Eugene OR Finally Old Enough Supporter

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    Do you want me to use my reason to answer that?
     
  13. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    That is never the case.
    Nothing about what is observed guarantees an accurate post-analysis.
    Ev-er.
     
  14. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    We all know what ancient and everlasting means.
    Except young earth creationists.
     
  15. RDKirk

    RDKirk Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner Supporter

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    Then you're saying scripture lies, and that God is playing "Stump the Dummy" with mankind.

    "Stump the Dummy" is when a leader demands a subordinate answer question knowing he has kept the answer from everyone but himself.
     
  16. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    God does not require any answers. Grace is granted by faith alone.
    Faith is not having the answers but trusting anyway.
    I question what sources you are reading.
     
  17. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Please learn the quote function in the forum.
    Thank you.
     
  18. Open Heart

    Open Heart Well-Known Member

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    The mountains ARE ancient, but they can't be everlasting in the literal sense, since:
    1. we know they are created and
    2. we know that someday God will create a new earth
     
  19. Amber Rosewater

    Amber Rosewater New Member

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    The bible says, let man be liars and God true. I assume youve seen Gods spirit work and God called upon you. So I say this with confedence that man has lied and decieved us. No fossil record exists at all. Leading scientists are attacking God which is the spiritual war between the devil and God. Knowing the spirit of Jesus, be confedent. If you dont know Jesus's spirit in your life, the read the bible and grow closer to God.
     
  20. KomatiiteBIF

    KomatiiteBIF Well-Known Member

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    There is a fossil succession, ive seen it with my own eyes. Ive seen invertebrates in the cambrian, tetrapods in the devonian, reptiles in the carboniferous, highly derived reptiles (dinosaurs) in the cretaceous. Haven't seen any cross over. Or anything unconfirmed.
     
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