Is God a liar?

BobRyan

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Didn't God lie to Jonah?

Not at all.

Jeremiah 18
7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’

The whole point of the "warning" was to get them to turn.

========================

Contrast that to Sodom's fate. There was no 14 hours of "in 14 hours Sodom will be destroyed" preaching going on.
 
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nosolostsoul

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Not at all.

Jeremiah 18
7 At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it; 8 if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it. 9 Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it; 10 if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. 11 So now then, speak to the men of Judah and against the inhabitants of Jerusalem saying, ‘Thus says the Lord, “Behold, I am fashioning calamity against you and devising a plan against you. Oh turn back, each of you from his evil way, and reform your ways and your deeds.”’

The whole point of the "warning" was to get them to turn.

========================
 
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BobRyan

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Not debunked, deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men.

We get that from our atheist friends all the time. They are wrong to make such false baseless accusations.

You can get the acceptance of old earth evolution from the majority of educated Christians who are free in Christ.

As it turns out - it is more difficult that you seem to know - to get Christians to say "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." -- but as stated before - we can get that from atheists all day long.
 
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Humble Servant of Christ

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BobRyan said:
I believe modern maps of the earth have four corners -- shall we "not trust them"???



And the "Four winds of heaven" and

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.



Making that statement you quote only "you" -- why do that as a claim for my position?? The Bible uses imagery just as we say today "from the four corners of the earth" and as we say "what time is sunset".

Here I state the obvious. You know it as well as I do.



To this very day - you can find sunrise and sunset calendar apps online. Is this supposed to convince us that in our culture nothing is literally true?

I think we all know that does not work.

We can take the "obvious" today just as in the bible - without claiming that "everything is up for grabs and revisionism"
Your lack of an answer speaks volumes. Thank you for your consistency
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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We get that from our atheist friends all the time. They are wrong to make such false baseless accusations.
. . ..

The linking of accepting evolution with atheism continues to be a logical blunder committed on a regular basis by the defenders of the YEC point of view. Many of us Christians accept evolution.
 
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BobRyan

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Not debunked, deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men.

We get that from our atheist friends all the time. They are wrong to make such false baseless accusations.

You can get the acceptance of old earth evolution from the majority of educated Christians who are free in Christ.

As it turns out - it is more difficult that you seem to know - to get Christians to say "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." -- but as stated before - we can get that from atheists all day long.

The linking of accepting evolution with atheism continues to be a logical blunder committed on a regular basis by the defenders of the YEC point of view. Many of us Christians accept evolution.

So then you "are" stepping up to the plate to join Colter in his "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." statement?

Really?

Because Colter has at least a "reason" for doing it -- he is a believer in Urantia and not the Bible.

What is "your reason" for joining him in that one?
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
I believe modern maps of the earth have four corners -- shall we "not trust them"???

The bible passage does not say the 4 corners of the map. It states 4 corners of the earth.

And the "Four winds of heaven" and

31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

You only use what is written exactly in the Bible with no context

Making that statement you quote only "you" -- why do that as a claim for my position?? The Bible uses imagery just as we say today "from the four corners of the earth" and as we say "what time is sunset".

Here I state the obvious. You know it as well as I do.

so do you believe the earth has a skirt as stated in Job 38:13? What about Ecclesciates 1:5....do you read this in the context of standing on the earth

To this very day - you can find sunrise and sunset calendar apps online. Is this supposed to convince us that in our culture nothing is literally true?

I think we all know that does not work.

We can take the "obvious" today just as in the bible - without claiming that "everything is up for grabs and revisionism"

Thank you for your consistency

You are welcome of course.
 
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Colter

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We get that from our atheist friends all the time. They are wrong to make such false baseless accusations.



As it turns out - it is more difficult that you seem to know - to get Christians to say "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." -- but as stated before - we can get that from atheists all day long.
Sure, as stated before, Atheist are right about evolution. Atheist use the superstitious beliefs of some stubborn religious people against them. When they try it with me I explain the truth that life evolved from the initial creation event. Evolution is Gods way of creating man. Even man goes through developmental stages from an infant to the grave.

But religion has its own pride and its own sins to face.
 
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Smidlee

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Since you are continuously quoting the principle of continuity, please define it. Are you referring ot the original generic mathematicla theorem as proposed by Gottfried Whilhem Leibniz? Or are you refering to the portion used in the laws of conservation using the divergence theorem? Or are you talking about fluid dynamics? Or are you refering to its use in quantum mechanics? Please be more specific as to which use of principle of continuity is incorrect?

A literal interpretation of Genesis from the perspective of the earth describes the perspective looking at creation from the surface of the earth. As the earth's atmosphere condenses, light filters in from the sun. Only after the atmosphere further condenses is the sun and moon visable . Let us remember that Moses was seeing the events of creation at a summary level from the earth's perspective since that was his point of reference. He has no knowledge that the sun was a gaseous sphere.

There are many interpretations in the bible. Without interpretations, one would conclude that Ecclesiastes 1:5 states the sun moves around the earth and hastens to its place it rises. Do you not interpret this from the earth's perpective? Do you believe joshua 9:6 literally means the earth has pillars that is rests one? Revelations 20:8 speaks of the 4 corners of the earth. A sphere has no corners so do you believe the earth is flat? Do you read Job 38:13 to mean the earth has a skirt?

Why don't you believe in a flat earth and the sun is a disc that revolves around it? The verses above would point to a flat earth. There are others as well.

As far as the "mental side" of the universe, please keep those beliefs to a new age website.

The big bang is perfectly described in Genesis. God created all matter, space and time out of nothing. His created laws of physics created the exact universe as we see it today. Of course the big bamg needs God. He is the creator of it and the cause before time and matter.

Most young earth folks tie evolution to the big bang. They are mutually exclusive. I dont believe in macro evolution and i dont think science or the fossil records support it.

I put faith in James 1:13...for God is not tempted by evil nor does he tempt anyone. Why would the laws of the universe that God created be in place to tempt Christians? We can disgree on interpretaions but let us all admit that all Christians use interpretations in reading the Bible. That is not say we believe the Bible contains fairy tales but words like the corners of the earth don't mean the earth has corners and therefore is not a sphere.
The principle of continuity is everything is interconnected which also point to determinism which is self refuting. It's the whole idea the the four forces doesn't just describe how our universe operates but it is the cause of everything as well. This caused man to worship the sun moon and stars and the scientist who suppose the Big Bang assumes the life is the result of these heavenly bodies as dominoes knocking down the next domino in a chain reaction
Big Bang is tied to evolution because both assume the principle of continuity is true.
The "mental side" of the universe is something physicist talks about. The universe we know is both mental and physical.
For example you think the sun give off light but not as we see light. The universe is in completely darkness (or completely light) . The sun gives off electromagnetic waves as do all stars at night. There are so many stars that the night sky is filled with electromagnetic waves. Why then do we see the night sky dark? These waves are shifted away from what our eyes can detect. Light is both physical and mental (and I believe spiritual as well).
In quantum physics, we observe something on a quantum level effect it's state.
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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We get that from our atheist friends all the time. They are wrong to make such false baseless accusations.



As it turns out - it is more difficult that you seem to know - to get Christians to say "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." -- but as stated before - we can get that from atheists all day long.



So then you "are" stepping up to the plate to join Colter in his "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." statement?

Really?

Because Colter has at least a "reason" for doing it -- he is a believer in Urantia and not the Bible.

What is "your reason" for joining him in that one?

You don't get to tell me what I believe. The Bible is God's word . . . but it is subject to improper interpretation. The Universe, including the stars, the rocks, and the genomes, are also from God. Scientists are beginning to read these things accurately. Just as Jesus showed signs that He was from God, so scientists present us signs they are properly understanding the universe. Those who rejected Jesus are followed by those who reject God's Universe. I invite you to stop rejecting God's universe, and what it tells us about the "how" of God's creation.
 
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BobRyan

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Not debunked, deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men.

We get that from our atheist friends all the time. They are wrong to make such false baseless accusations.

You can get the acceptance of old earth evolution from the majority of educated Christians who are free in Christ.

As it turns out - it is more difficult that you seem to know - to get Christians to say "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." -- but as stated before - we can get that from atheists all day long.

The linking of accepting evolution with atheism continues to be a logical blunder committed on a regular basis by the defenders of the YEC point of view. Many of us Christians accept evolution.

So then you "are" stepping up to the plate to join Colter in his "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." statement?

Really?

Because Colter has at least a "reason" for doing it -- he is a believer in Urantia and not the Bible.

What is "your reason" for joining him in that one?

You don't get to tell me what I believe. .

Nor may you tell me what I believe. We agree on that. Now see there is easily a point of agreement.

My statement to Colter was -

As it turns out - it is more difficult that you seem to know - to get Christians to say "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." -- but as stated before - we can get that from atheists all day long.

It is possible that your post was in agreement with me and of the form "That is right -- I don't believe that statement about the Bible writers at all".

Did you mean to post such a thing? You have free will - you can post as you please.
 
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BobRyan

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The Bible is God's word . . . but it is subject to improper interpretation. .

That is what I was insisting that Colter's fellow evolutionists would be posting rather then their affirming the more Urantia-friendly statement "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men."
 
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Colter

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We get that from our atheist friends all the time. They are wrong to make such false baseless accusations.



As it turns out - it is more difficult that you seem to know - to get Christians to say "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." -- but as stated before - we can get that from atheists all day long.



So then you "are" stepping up to the plate to join Colter in his "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." statement?

Really?

Because Colter has at least a "reason" for doing it -- he is a believer in Urantia and not the Bible.

What is "your reason" for joining him in that one?



Nor may you tell me what I believe. We agree on that. Now see there is easily a point of agreement.

My statement to Colter was -

As it turns out - it is more difficult that you seem to know - to get Christians to say "deluded is a better word. Bible worshippers confuse faith in God with faith in the opinions of corrupt holy men." -- but as stated before - we can get that from atheists all day long.

It is possible that your post was in agreement with me and of the form "That is right -- I don't believe that statement about the Bible writers at all".

Did you mean to post such a thing? You have free will - you can post as you please.
In Bobs small world if you realize the truth about evolution then you must be an Atheist. This issue is a constant topic of Bobs because he's at odds with an abundance of evidence.
 
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Colter

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So, what are the statistics of Christians who believe in a God assisted evolution?


image.png


In U.S., 42% Believe Creationist View of Human Origins
 
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Humble Servant of Christ

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The principle of continuity is everything is interconnected which also point to determinism which is self refuting. It's the whole idea the the four forces doesn't just describe how our universe operates but it is the cause of everything as well. This caused man to worship the sun moon and stars and the scientist who suppose the Big Bang assumes the life is the result of these heavenly bodies as dominoes knocking down the next domino in a chain reaction
Big Bang is tied to evolution because both assume the principle of continuity is true.
The "mental side" of the universe is something physicist talks about. The universe we know is both mental and physical.
For example you think the sun give off light but not as we see light. The universe is in completely darkness (or completely light) . The sun gives off electromagnetic waves as do all stars at night. There are so many stars that the night sky is filled with electromagnetic waves. Why then do we see the night sky dark? These waves are shifted away from what our eyes can detect. Light is both physical and mental (and I believe spiritual as well).
In quantum physics, we observe something on a quantum level effect it's state.
Ok. I would recommend to stop quoting the principle of continuity in light of your definition. You are applying a mystical-wicca type philosophy to a very sound scientific principle. Hubble did not worship the sun and never mentioned anything about determinism. The continuity principle or thereom is a mathematical therom developed by Liebniz in the 1600's. It has been used in conjunction with other mathematical theories to validate many universal laws. Please do not confuse scientific - mathematical thereoms with new age wicca philospohy or ancient religions. It hinders your arguments.

You have some basic errors in your knolwedge of the Big Bang. The Big Bang - in its simplest form - is that all matter, energy, time, space and the univsersal physical laws came into existance in a singularity from nothing. At that moment, the universe began its expansion that we still see today. There is debate about what caused the singularity since something outside of space and time was the cause. I, like millions of other conservative Christians, believe that God was the cause. He is outside of space and time and the Big Bang looks very much like Genesis 1....out of nothing came everything! Please don't buy into the false idea that acceptance of the Big Bang means acceptance of atheism and evolution. The Big Bang is mutually exclusive from evolution and neither has anything to do with the other. The scientific community can never discover the source of the singularity since the source was outside of space and time. We can never recreate it since space and time were created in the singularity. We are limited by time and space. The cause of the singularity becomes a theological discussion.

Evolution is another theory and at its core is 3 separate theories....1 macro evolution (life from lifeless materials)....2 micro evolution (small changes in singular species over time and conditions.....3 natural selection (certain traits lend an animal to survive or thrive based on environment and conditions). Theories 2 and 3 can stand alone and are not dependent on macro evolution. Thus the theory of intelligent design to the creation of life and all of its varieties. Sounds like Genesis again!

Just keep an open mind to how Genesis describes much of the physical world and life. I believe in a universe that is billions of years old and i also believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis. I wish more Christians would see that science supports God. It makes sense since God created science and was the author of our physcial laws. It would take an intelligence beyond our comprehension to create the singularity that caused the Big Bang in such perfect balance that the universe as we see it today was created and was the only possible outcome from the instant time and space were created.

From my perspective, God - through the Big Bang- shows us his power and authority over all. Once again...sounds like the Bible.
 
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Ben johnson

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All the scientific evidence points to an ancient earth.
Does not. The Universe is thought to be 93billion light years wide; but only 13.7 billion years old -- how can things travel 46.5 billion light years in only 13.7 billion years, if nothing can move faster than light?

"Space-time" has no upper limit on velocity. At the instant of inflation, pockets of space-time may have moved at MINIMUM velocity of 30 million, billion times faster than light. That's the WHOLE UNIVERSE expanding in essentially an instant.

Lunar dust does not support 4.5 billion years, but only a few thousand; there should be OCEANS of dust. (Arthur C. Clark, "A Fall of Moondust")

Carbon14 dating is only good for a few thousand years, and PRESUMES initial concentration (by neutron action on atmospheric nitrogen).

Geological structuring is circular, "we know the age of the rocks by the fossils, and we know the age of the fossils by the rocks!" Thousands of years of geological structuring happened in WEEKS at Mount Saint Helens.

We could be here all day...

Furthermore, the fossil records support the slow change of species over time, such as dinosaurs to birds.
THEY DO NOT! Fossils have been FALSIFIED -- from Dawson's "Piltdown Man", to the REVERSED Equine Evolution series! To peppered-moths, etcettera! No, all you "supposed-scientists", the Cambrian Explosion showed MANY branches occurring SIMULTANEOUSLY -- as if many forms were created at once. Darwin said, "If we do not find a single tree progression, the whole theory will have to be scrapped". Well we don't; multiple trees starting together.

*IF* these things are not true, it would follow that God deliberately created a world with false scientific data. Right? So then this begs the questions...
First, admit THERE IS NO SUCH THING as an Atheist.

1. Do you know everything to know about the Universe?
(Every Atheist has to answer, "no".)

2. Do you know HALF, of ALL there is to know in the Universe?
(Again Atheists have to answer, "no".)

3. Could God exist in the half YOU DON'T KNOW?
(They just admitted they don't know half, so yes--God could be over there!)

4. So you don't know if God exists, you are now AGNOSTIC, a doubter?
(The only answer is "yes".)

5. Are you an HONEST doubter, or a DISHONEST doubter?
("What do you mean?")


Well, if you're an honest doubter, you don't know if there's a God, and you WANT to know. If you're dishonest, you don't want to know. Which are you?"

To a person, every (former) Atheist can only say, "...uhhhhmmm..."

Did God lie?
Scripture does not state how long Creation took; read Genesis1:1, it doesn't say how long. But understand it LOOKS like it was RECENT. More important than "how long", is the reality that it COULD not happen by itself.

Evolutionists cannot explain how things started with a vague nod to the fraudulent Miller/Urey biogenesis experiement, they simply have FAITH that it STARTED SOMEHOW (how does DNA begin reproducing, when cellular walls are made by DNA and DNA doesn't work without cellular walls)?

How does it start? A "belief", is A RELIGION. Every Evolutionist is a Humanist --- the Humanist Manifesto of 1933 says, Precept #1, "This RELIGIOUS Humanism". Full admission of a religion!

And if God lied, why?
Sigh. Pretend Miller/Urey was NOT a fraud, and explain how only LEFT-handed proteins pull themselves out of solution and form working DNA? No one will ever answer that; it can't happen.

What do you believe?

The evidence overwhelmingly supports "special creation", and it does look like it was recent. Miguel Alcubierre (sp?) proposed a "warp-bubble faster-than-light" travel, which makes the Universe possibly very young. But even if Earth is 4.5billion years old, the statistics are so outrageous against forming even the simplest VIRUSES, as to expose Evolution as the greatest religion ever conceived. But then it happened TWICE -- first a cell, second some mitochondria, third some accident to symbios the two. Literally probability of infinity against happening; but then raised to infinity, raised again, and again and again!

AND THEN they talk about life also evolving on OTHER PLANETS! I am ashamed that my Christianity has not achieved anywhere NEAR that faith...
 
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Carbon14 dating is only good for a few thousand years, and PRESUMES initial concentration (by neutron action on atmospheric nitrogen).
Let's use this as an example as to your misrepresentation of science. A few thousand years? Carbon 14 works up to 50,000 years. After that we have other forms of radiometric dating.
 
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Smidlee

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Ok. I would recommend to stop quoting the principle of continuity in light of your definition. You are applying a mystical-wicca type philosophy to a very sound scientific principle. Hubble did not worship the sun and never mentioned anything about determinism. The continuity principle or thereom is a mathematical therom developed by Liebniz in the 1600's. It has been used in conjunction with other mathematical theories to validate many universal laws. Please do not confuse scientific - mathematical thereoms with new age wicca philospohy or ancient religions. It hinders your arguments.
Interesting since I heard scientist mention this principle and it's an old religious principle that deal more than just math long before 1600's. It's exactly like the idea that the earth went around the sun was before Isaac Newton calculus. This principle as with most principles were mention before Jesus birth.
I didn't claim Hubble worship the sun but this principle in the past lead people to worship the stars ,sun and moon.

Not only is the Big Bang anti-scripture it's also anti-science. First the Big Bang myth has to call on the "tooth fairy" more than one (that came from a scientist criticism of the Big Bang) , inflation, dark energy and dark matter. Second it refute science since it leads to the Boltzmann Brain Paradox.
It's a shame Christian rather support something that even the unbelievers knows has serious problems than to believe God spoke the universe into existence just as He claimed He did.

You have some basic errors in your knolwedge of the Big Bang. The Big Bang - in its simplest form - is that all matter, energy, time, space and the univsersal physical laws came into existance in a singularity from nothing.
And that's the paradox. It's multitudes more likely for a singularity to produce a smaller less complex universe then a extremely fine-tune huge universe. This would imply that it's multitudes more likely a singularity to produce a Boltzmann Brain than the real universe with brain within real bodies.
This means that science would refute itself since the universe doesn't actual exist.
You assume I haven't spent time reading up on the Big Bang theory.

The Bible doesn't deal with science it's deal with the heart of the scientist where all science come from. It's here where I learn the religious belief behind evolution and Big Bang and it's not Biblical.
 
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