Is Gandhi going to hell?

MoNiCa4316

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Well, here's my take...

It is written that that which we do unto the least of God, we do unto Him. Our God has a wonderful way of reciprocating love. I believe that it is possible that Ghandi could have seen an angel in his last moments and accepted Christ before passing on. Simple.

I believe that could be possible too :) :thumbsup:

This would only be just if, before I was born, I was given a choice between being perfect, and being human, and chose to be human.

None of us chose to be created human, but, being human, none of us has the option of being perfect, because GOD MADE US THIS WAY.

It is pure sadism for God to create us imperfect and then decide to punish us for it. There is NOTHING of justice in this.

You can choose to have such a God, if you prefer, but I do not. I have a God who has reconciled mankind to himself out of love, not simply to avoid having to punish everyone for a choice that HE made.

Catherineanne, us having original sin doesn't mean that God made us with original sin. He made Adam and Eve perfect. It was they who decided to leave Him. It's because of their sin that we have original sin... not because of God. God gave them free will.

God makes us in His image, but our souls are tainted with original sin, not through God's fault but through humanity's fault.

If you think that is unfair... people don't go to hell just because of original sin, but because they later on choose to not repent of their sins. If they repent, God readily forgives them. The problem is when God is trying to lead a person to repentance, and they're resisting... and that IS their own choice.

I am a Christian. I have served my Lord all my life, and with his Grace hope to always do so.

If I reach eternity and find that a literal lake of hellfire exists, I will happily bow to my Lord, thank him for everything, and then jump into it.

A God who can create an eternal punishment for finite sin is not worth worshipping, and an eternity spent worshipping him is far worse than any lake of hellfire. I will not worship an immoral God.

Fortunately for me, God is not immoral.

I think that is a very dangerous thing to say. How do you know that your (our, human) understanding is perfect? what if there is a lake of fire but God is also just? would you reject God because you don't understand Him? that is very sad to me :(

God is love because He is a relationship, Father, Son, Holy Spirit. He made the world to share in His love and to be in relationship with Him.. He gave us consciousness so we can freely return love back, just as He does.

God made us (humans - Adam and Eve) perfect, immortal, and in communion with Him. But people were also given free will, and through temptation of the enemy, sinned. They became proud, wanting to be like God. And left Him.

God doesn't owe us anything. He gave us Himself, the whole world, and we rejected Him. But....in His love, He came down to earth.. became one of us.. (think how small we are compared to the universe!).. and then LET His own creation murder Him.

Jesus watched the soldiers drive nails into His hands (the hands that made them), felt the pain they were inflicting on Him.... and all He said was, "Father forgive them.."

and now, after God showed us this GREATEST love, He offers us a way back to Himself. We are free to take it or leave it.

If a person rejects it... freely, knowingly rejects it.... when they'll meet God in eternity, they wouldn't be ABLE to be with Him. They would hate Him, they would undestand their sin, but not be ABLE to repent of it.. because they have closed themselves to repentance. They would flee from His presence. Where? God is everywhere! The love of God, which is the delight and joy of the Saints, would be torture to them. They would go to the one place they can - hell, where there is no God. They would get what they wanted... no need to repent, no need to humble themselves, no need to give up their pride by asking for forgiveness.

But since there's no God there.... there is no goodness, no love, no happiness either. Because He is the source of these things. So they would suffer, because they're torn away from the one thing they were created for.... they would suffer, knowing that they have rejected the whole purpose of their existence, but would not be willing to repent. And this would last forever because God made our souls this way - our souls can't cease to exist.

Since they would be in the same place as the demons (fallen angels, who also rejected God) - they'd share in the hellfire meant for them.

God didn't CREATE hell (even if hell is a lake of fire). It exists because men and angels have chosen to leave Him... and the place they went, away from His presence, is called hell. If lucifer had chosen to stay with God, if Adam and Eve had chosen to stay with God, or if we had all chosen to repent of our sins now, in our present condition, there would be no need for hell....

I don't understand what is unjust about this.

Some people have the question... "is it worth it to give people free will, if this is one of the possible outcomes?" yes I believe it is worth it. If God made it this way, then it is worth it. He gave us free will because love does not exist without choice.. and He created us to love and to know His love. In taking away our free will, He would take away the very reason for our existence... so it is better for God not to create? no.. and we have no authority to judge God. HE decides what is good and evil. Not us. Our understanding is not always correct...we only know so little.

You are correct, but not in the way you think. :)

If even one single person on God's earth can see that eternal damnation and hellfire for unbelievers is immoral, then it is totally impossible for God to believe it to be acceptable or just. And the Anglican Church has judged that there is not a literal hellfire, so that is more than one person. (Some Anglicans may still believe it, of course; that is their choice.)

what do Anglicans believe? (just wondering, I don't know :))

I still think that it's not up to us to judge God. If someone thinks that hell is unjust, that doesn't mean it is. It means that their understanding is perhaps wrong, or misinformed, or incomplete. It is proud to think that our understanding matches God's.

Man cannot outdo God in love, mercy and compassion. Descriptions of hell are allegorical, representing the pain of being separated from God either in this life or eternity. It cannot be literal, because a literal hell denotes a psychopathic and sadistic God, and God is neither of these.

when you say literal, what do you mean? do you mean the fire? what if there is fire? we don't know... it can be either.

I tend to think that the fire is meant for the demons... but since the souls would be in the same place, they'd have to share in that fire. In ANY case, there would be suffering, because there can't be happiness or peace away from God.
 
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MoNiCa4316

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I trust the Bible as far as it authorises me to trust it, but no further. I do not trust the Bible above God himself, because it does not share his authority.

Giving the Bible equal status and authority with God is unBiblical, and verges on blasphemy. The Holy Trinity does not comprise God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Scriptures. A lot of Christians act as if it does, but it doesn't.

Consider the difference between an A-Z of London, and London itself. The two are not the same. The A-Z points to London, and tells us something of London, but if I actually want to know what London is like, I have to go there, and experience it for myself. Just reading the book is not enough. It is enough to help me find my way to London, and to find my way from one place to another, but simply reading it is not the same as going there. In other words, it is a means to an end, but it is not the end itself.

At any given point if I find myself lost, the A - Z will help me to reorientate myself to London itself, but it is in relation to London that I live and move, not in relation to the book. If I am ok with London, and know where I am, the book can stay in my bag, because all is well. I can choose to look at it, and I can choose not to. As long as I am on familiar ground, I am fine.

But what is the relation of the book to the actuality? If I read the A-Z and see that in it Oxford Street is 2mm wide, do I then conclude that the actual Oxford Street is 2mm wide? Or do I extrapolate from it, and conclude that the reality is much greater than the book can convey? The book represents something of London, but that does not mean that it actually is London, nor that it contains, defines or circumscribes London in any way.

Similarly, the Bible represents something of God, and is the best means by which we may find our way to him, but it does not contain, define or circumscribe God in any way. God does not answer to Scripture, but rather Scripture answers to God.

If I get to London and find that a street marked as one way on the map is actually two way, do I conclude that London is wrong? Or do I conclude that the map is slightly out of date, and that it must be redefined in the light of my actual experience of the actual reality that I have found?

Far too many Christians do the first of these; they use the Bible as a straightjacket, in which to contain God and his mercy. That is not what it is intended for, and is an abuse of Scripture.

The Bible points the way. If we stop at the Bible, using it as a container in which to confine God, or a dictionary by which to define him, then we miss just as much as the tourist who decides to stay at home and read the A-Z, instead of actually visiting the City. And far worse are two tourists sitting at home, comparing the Baedecker guide with the A-Z, and arguing about which is correct, without taking the trouble to get on a train and go to the City itself, and see for themselves what the actuality is.

I see what you are saying, - I myself am not even "sola scriptura" - I'm Catholic, - but I don't think that the Bible would ever contradict God's truth. For example, if in my experience I find A to be true, but the Bible says A is wrong, I'd have to trust the Bible on that. Not myself.

I see this in nature and in the Church... everything that is true corresponds with what is in Scripture. Sacred Tradition corresponds perfectly, because it has the same 'author' as the Bible - the Holy Spirit. The Spirit never contradicts Himself.

God bless
 
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Christfan

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It seems to me you are argueing with God about how everything is set up.

Do you really know the importance of Jesus' blood? The whole Bible old and new are based upon the blood of Jesus. Why? Because it is the ONLY thing that allows us to be with God in heaven. One sin alone is enough to be punished and God is perfectly justified in doing so. But with his INSEPARABLE love for us he DID NOT want us to perish so he sacrificed Jesus FOR US. How can you say ANYONE can go to heaven without accepting Jesus that it is based upon the measure of how many "good things" you have done compared to "bad things".

That of course leads towards sin not being able to be in the presence of God's FULL radiance and appearance. The same thing as darkness having no presence in Light. Its just that simple, without Jesus' blood that cleanses your sins you cannot be in heaven with God's full glory. That is why ONE sin is still enough to be punished in front of a completely PURE and HOLY God. As God spoke to moses:

Exodus 33:20-23
Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put theein a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

That is the whole purpose of being BORN AGAIN (AKA BELIEF IN JESUS), we no longer are in bondage in sin and can be deemed righteous in God's eyes. Thats what it meant when Jesus conquered death and bruised the head of satan.

Im not going to debate with you because your heart is set on what you believe, but I will state out the FACTS that the Bible tells us.
 
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Jeffz

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My ways are not your ways says Yahweh, so how can we question Him? Job attempted to do just this:

Job 9:1 Then Job answered and said,
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Job 9:2 I know [it is] so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?
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Job 9:3 If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand.
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Job 9:4 [He is] wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened [himself] against him, and hath prospered?


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Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
And then in chapter 40 God answers Job:

Job 40:1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
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Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct [him]? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.
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Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD, and said,
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Job 40:4 Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.


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Job 40:13 Hide them in the dust together; [and] bind their faces in secret.
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Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. I think that anyone who thinks that they can presume their opinions above God will be met with the same questions that God has asked of Job.
And then in the end Job gives God this response:

Job 42:4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
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Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.
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Job 42:6 Wherefore I abhor [myself], and repent in dust and ashes.

My friend when we are confronted with God I am sure that we also will repent in dust and ashes. May we all find Him now rather than be confronted with the truth after it is to late.
 
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Norbert L

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people who dont believe in jesus are going to hell according to the bible. so i decided to pick the posterboy for peace...mohandas gandhi. he wasnt christian...so according to the christian tradition that kid in the video states...gandhi is going to hell...

true or false? comments, opinions are appreciated.

False in the sense of not yet decided, his eyes were not opened. He like those numerous Israelites who fell dead in trangression at the covenant given from Mt. Sinai are still awaiting the miracle of hearing and knowing the life giving covenant made with the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

"Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the LORD, have spoken it and performed it," says the LORD.' " (Eze 37:12-14)

Here is a more thorough teaching about the subject: apocatastasis
 
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seashale76

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people who dont believe in jesus are going to hell according to the bible. so i decided to pick the posterboy for peace...mohandas gandhi. he wasnt christian...so according to the christian tradition that kid in the video states...gandhi is going to hell...

true or false? comments, opinions are appreciated.

If you already know what the scriptures say, then why are you asking us for our opinions? Who am I to judge someone else's servant? Only God knows Gandhi's heart. Lord, have mercy!
 
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MoNiCa4316

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How can you say ANYONE can go to heaven without accepting Jesus that it is based upon the measure of how many "good things" you have done compared to "bad things".

the Bible says that Jesus is the one who saves us. It doesn't say that those who have never heard of Him (or never learned enough) will go to hell no matter what. They will still be saved through His sacrifice, but in a different way... all grace comes from God. If they respond to the graces they ARE given, they can be saved, because they are accepting God, unknowingly. I don't believe that God would put someone in hell just because they died before they got a chance to hear about Jesus or because they were born in a place where no missionaries come..... God is merciful, and ignorance is not the same as rejection. Also, what about the people in the Old Testament? they went to Heaven without hearing about Jesus, because they COULDN'T know about Him - yet.

so for those 'invinsibly ignorant' people - ignorant through no fault of their own - for them, it matters if they followed their conscience or not. It matters for us too, because if we claim to believe in God, but dont do what He says, we won't be saved. Even if we've "accepted" Him. Acceptance of God is doing His will..

God bless :)
 
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max1120

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You are still equating God with perfectly moral man - if a man can see it's immoral, God must see it, too. But God isn't human. He is not limited by what you think is moral or immoral, what your church thinks is fair or just. Do you recognize that He made you? He is well within His rights, no matter what He does.

Regardless, no one god nor any other creator or created he/she is not "well within his rights, no matter what he does". Why you may ask? Becasue no self respecting, sane, reasoned person would simply lay back and accept such nonsense. What fool would say "oh ok I guess I will go off here and burn in hell for all eternity and be tormented night and day with out any reistence..after all you did create me"..lol The person who would think let lone say such jiberish nonsense would have to be "insane"...they should be locked away for their own protection. People just do not do that...it would be akin to placing no value on your own person to the ultimate degree. For a person to value the "wishes" of god/creator over their own person to that degree (to the degree that they would suffer without end simply because this god/creator) wished for them to suffer can not be even imagined by most sane person. That sounds like a religion born of self hate...not love.

Personally, any time a church "judges" the Word of God, I'd run the other way. No man-made organization has the authority to decide what part of God's word is valid and what isn't.

I hate having to tell you this, but that has already happen...several times over the last two thousand years..lol. There were these things called councils where the early church fathers meet and voted on which books and which versions of books to include in the final cannon (bible). The fact is the final acceptence of what we call today the bible was not comlete until about 396 A.D. at a church council when the last books were finally accepted (with much debate and only after a compromise settlement between tthe two factions in disagreement). The fact is that from the very begining to now there has been and will continue to be a great deal of debate about what constitutes "gods word".

If the Bible can't be trusted, then we have no access to any reliable information on God. Everyone's version of God would be equally valid. That can't be true.

Perhaps but before I accept your version as the "truth" over all the others I would want to know what proof you have to offer to show that your is more accurate than "thier" version.

Not when the Moslems believe they have to kill Christians, as do the more radical Hindus, in order to please God.

I agree with you killing to please ones "god" is imoral. But then how do you explain the crusades? Those were Christians killing muslims, how can that be any more moral than Muslims killing Christians for their god? Both are wrong and both are hate not love.

There are 22 families - parents and children - in prison in Afganistan right now, scheduled for execution, simply because they are Christian. Are you telling me that the men who ordered the execution of toddlers are going to heaven? Simply because their parents believe in Christ?

No killing innocent children for no reason except that they are Christian or for that matter anything Muslim, Hindu...ect. is WRONG. However your version of god would throw people in to hell to burn for all eternity simply because they did not believe in him or because the broke some minor rule that displeased him. That type of god has no more moral justification than the people who would excute a toddler in the example you mentioned above. In fact the excution is a finate penalty, your version of god would torture people forever and ever without end, thus I could say that your version of god was actually less merciful than those who would execuste the innocent toddlers in Afganistan. Let us pray that somehow those children shall be spared.
 
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max1120

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And you know this how? :confused:

Actually I do not "know" this for certain. I do however believe that god does not send people to hell to suffer etarnal torment over simply not believing in his existence. That would make god evil and cruel and I would not worship a cruel and evil god, nor would the vast majority people except out fear (not love). So I believe that god is not so cruel that he would condem poor Ghandi simply because he did not believe in the Christian god.

 
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Christfan

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Actually I do not "know" this for certain. I do however believe that god does not send people to hell to suffer etarnal torment over simply not believing in his existence. That would make god evil and cruel and I would not worship a cruel and evil god, nor would the vast majority people except out fear (not love). So I believe that god is not so cruel that he would condem poor Ghandi simply because he did not believe in the Christian god.

Then you are really not going to like these verses Romans 1:18-25, yep even those who never heard of jesus go to hell according to the God of the Bible.

It you think you are glorifying God by overemphasizing one aspect of him to negate his others, you are very wrong. Your dangerous views only promote universalism and make god a respector of persons. The alarming fact that should ring in your head is your uncertainty, but still cling to a questionable and non-scriptural belief. God is far from a complete pacifist you make him out to be.
 
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stormdancer0

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The entire basis for the Christian faith is Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, was crucified, dead, buried, and raised on the third day. This perfect sacrifice allows us to come to God through Jesus' righteousness. All we know about Jesus, His life, and His ministry is in the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible, you don't believe the only source we have for information as to God's plan for us. Yes, the Spirit does speak to us as well, but it's so easy for us to mix up our desires with the desires of the Spirit. We can always verify what we believe the Spirit is telling us by comparing it to God's Word. The Spirit would not ever counter the Word of God.

The two most effective lies the enemy has come up with are:

Satan and hell do not exist.
and
God is nothing but love.

But He is also justice, righteousness, and worthy of worship.

To say that someone "good" goes to Heaven because their good outweighs their bad should try that defense in court.

"Okay, so I killed that one person. But look at all the people I didn't kill. Surely my good acts outweigh my bad."
Yeah, that'll work.
 
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Jeffz

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Not only what you have said Stormdancer but also those that think that they do not need Jesus make his sacrifice to no effect in their lives. For God gave His only son to be the holy lamb slain from the foundation of the world to defeat the enemy who one day will be put under the feet of the King of kings. Our righteousness is as filthy rags says the scripture, not just some man's words but the Word of God given to men by the Spirit of God. May those that question the Word of God be touched by the love of the savior who died upon the cross even for the sins of those that refuse to believe. You still must take the gift for your own or it will not help you.
May your hearts be softened by the power of the living God whose Name is above every name. Yeshua Messiah
In the words of Paul recorded in 1 Cor. 1:18 and following:

18 For to those who are perishing the message of the cross is foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is God's power. (AE) 19 For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and I will set aside the understanding of the experts. (AF) (AG)
20 Where is the philosopher? [c] Where is the scholar? Where is the debater of this age? (AH) Hasn't God made the world's wisdom foolish? 21 For since, in God's wisdom, the world did not know God through wisdom, God was pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached. 22 For the Jews ask for signs (AI) and the Greeks seek wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified, (AJ) a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles. [d] 24 Yet to those who are called, (AK) both Jews and Greeks, Christ is God's power and God's wisdom, 25 because God's foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God's weakness is stronger than human strength.

Boasting Only in the Lord

26 Brothers, consider your calling: not many are wise from a human perspective, [e] not many powerful, (AL) not many of noble birth. 27 Instead, God has chosen (AM) the world's foolish things to shame the wise, and God has chosen the world's weak things to shame the strong. 28 God has chosen the world's insignificant and despised things (AN) —the things viewed as nothing—so He might bring to nothing the things that are viewed as something, 29 so that no one [f] can boast in His presence. (AO) 30 But from Him you are in Christ Jesus, who for us became wisdom from God, as well as righteousness, (AP) sanctification, (AQ) and redemption, (AR) 31 in order that, as it is written: (AS) The one who boasts must boast in the Lord.

So if I may boast let it be boasting in the Lord
 
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makeupgirl

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Actually I do not "know" this for certain. I do however believe that god does not send people to hell to suffer etarnal torment over simply not believing in his existence. That would make god evil and cruel and I would not worship a cruel and evil god, nor would the vast majority people except out fear (not love). So I believe that god is not so cruel that he would condem poor Ghandi simply because he did not believe in the Christian god.

Sorry this is late. Haven't been on in a while. Have you ever wonder why Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world? Well he died to correct the sin that was made by Adam and Eve. Because of the sin that they did, all humans were born with a sinful nature and thus making us total spiritual seperated from God. So when you accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and believe in his death, burial and resurrection, then you are reconcile to God. Jesus said point blank, he is the only way to the Father. He said, no man cometh unto the Father but by me. So those who have rejected Christ will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven. It's not about God being cruel but he has given everyone on earth an opportunity to know his son and to accept and believe on his son. It's not his will that no one perish or go to hell. IF he was really cruel, then he wouldn't have wanted us to be reconcile unto him through the sacriface of his son. Cruixfixion was obviously the worse possible way to die back in those days and I'm sure in modern times. He didn't have to die, he could have saved himself by his own power but when he was on the cross he was looking and thinking about us. That is the power of Love that comes only from God himself that he was willing to take on human flesh, live like we live and to die a painful death to reconcile us to himself and to save us from sin. So, if and only God knows rather or not that Gandi accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. I pray he did but if not then he's could not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
 
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capnator

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The entire basis for the Christian faith is Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, lived a perfect life, was crucified, dead, buried, and raised on the third day. This perfect sacrifice allows us to come to God through Jesus' righteousness. All we know about Jesus, His life, and His ministry is in the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible, you don't believe the only source we have for information as to God's plan for us. Yes, the Spirit does speak to us as well, but it's so easy for us to mix up our desires with the desires of the Spirit. We can always verify what we believe the Spirit is telling us by comparing it to God's Word. The Spirit would not ever counter the Word of God.

The two most effective lies the enemy has come up with are:

Satan and hell do not exist.
and
God is nothing but love.

But He is also justice, righteousness, and worthy of worship.

To say that someone "good" goes to Heaven because their good outweighs their bad should try that defense in court.

"Okay, so I killed that one person. But look at all the people I didn't kill. Surely my good acts outweigh my bad."
Yeah, that'll work.


One of his next best lies is that God will torture those who don't accept Jesus Christ for eternity in Hellfire.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch....3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

God is not some crazy saddist who delights in torture, but is merciful, even in the destruction of the wicked.
 
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Actually I do not "know" this for certain. I do however believe that god does not send people to hell to suffer etarnal torment over simply not believing in his existence. That would make god evil and cruel and I would not worship a cruel and evil god, nor would the vast majority people except out fear (not love). So I believe that god is not so cruel that he would condem poor Ghandi simply because he did not believe in the Christian god.

And this line of thinking is the result of the idea of eternal torment. Leaving us to either 1. Write of God as a cruel tyrant, which many people have done & or 2. Lower the standards God has set.

People will therefore conclude
1. God is a saddist/cruel tyrant, and not want anything to do with such a being.
2. God is good. A good being would not torture such and such a person for eternity therefore they must be in heaven.
 
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