Is free will really that important to God?

BubbaJack

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Consider this (and I'm speaking of course to those Christians who affirm free will); most Evangelical Christians seem to believe that babies and young children who die go to heaven, no ifs ands or buts. But if God is okay with accepting these into heaven without them making a choice in regards to salvation, then is free will as important as many assert it is?
 

AvgJoe

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Consider this (and I'm speaking of course to those Christians who affirm free will); most Evangelical Christians seem to believe that babies and young children who die go to heaven, no ifs ands or buts. But if God is okay with accepting these into heaven without them making a choice in regards to salvation, then is free will as important as many assert it is?

That would affirm free will, as these babies and young children had never made a choice to believe, or not.
 
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crossnote

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Consider this (and I'm speaking of course to those Christians who affirm free will); most Evangelical Christians seem to believe that babies and young children who die go to heaven, no ifs ands or buts. But if God is okay with accepting these into heaven without them making a choice in regards to salvation, then is free will as important as many assert it is?
Perhaps these verses should be considered as well.

but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven."
(Mat 19:14)


"See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
(Mat 18:10)
 
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Greg J.

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Consider this (and I'm speaking of course to those Christians who affirm free will); most Evangelical Christians seem to believe that babies and young children who die go to heaven, no ifs ands or buts. But if God is okay with accepting these into heaven without them making a choice in regards to salvation, then is free will as important as many assert it is?
This is not the belief of "most" evangelical Christians.

Freewill is so important to God that even though he is doing all he can to save people, he will let people choose their way into eternal punishment. God made us in his own image, an incredible gift. God made more beings like God?! God's not going to undo or even work against that gift. In fact, God is the #1 defender against loss of freewill. It is Satan who wants to deceive people to make them slaves.
 
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juvenissun

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Consider this (and I'm speaking of course to those Christians who affirm free will); most Evangelical Christians seem to believe that babies and young children who die go to heaven, no ifs ands or buts. But if God is okay with accepting these into heaven without them making a choice in regards to salvation, then is free will as important as many assert it is?

Our free will is very very important to God.
The fate of those who died without exercising free will is not determined.
To live a human life with a full free will is a chance, a test, a privilege and a gift.
 
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bling

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Consider this (and I'm speaking of course to those Christians who affirm free will); most Evangelical Christians seem to believe that babies and young children who die go to heaven, no ifs ands or buts. But if God is okay with accepting these into heaven without them making a choice in regards to salvation, then is free will as important as many assert it is?

You bring up an excellent question, but lack an understanding of the need for a free will and what it provides.

Free will is need for willing mature adults to fulfill their earthly objective:

If there is this eternal intelligence it would be at the epitome of the best it could be and not in the process of improvement. It would be the ultimate bad or good but not somewhere in-between. Why be bad when He can be good just as easily? The ultimate “good” would be what is called Godly type Love (to be defined later) and is totally unselfish type Love. Since this God would be able to direct our thinking, why would He have us think of him as being totally bad, when He could make us think bad was good and thus He would be worthy of praise? If God were bad and we praise a “Good God” than we are not praising Him.

If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.

Why would God have a totally unselfish type of Love, since He personally would not get anything out of it? If God’s “Love” is some kind of knee jerk reaction, then it is really meaningless (something like; gravity which is nice to have, but everyone automatically has it). God Loves us in spite of what we have done, who we are or what we will do, so it has to be by His choice.


So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is (the greatest gift He could give).



What keeps the all powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?


There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision without the selection being worthy of anything (it is a gift of pure charity).


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.


Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.


All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened). Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus and our own experience “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).

If the nonbeliever had knowledge of God's existence that person would not need faith in God's existence, but faith is needed for humility and humility is needed to humbly accept pure charity and the only way to get Godly type Love is through accepting it as pure charity in the form of forgiveness.

That is an introduction to a huge topic.


You asked about people who die before becoming mature adults: Knowing God’s Love would say they go to heaven, but without Godly type Love which is the result of a free will choice, but they would have a wonderful strong child for parent type love. Those with Godly type Love might get to serve them in heaven also (like Abraham did with Lazarus). Heaven is not our main goal, but comes with the Godly type Love.
 
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food4thought

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How would that affirm free will if there is no choice to be made?

Hi BubbaJack. I hope AvgJoe won't mind me responding for him. Since young children have not reached the age where they are capable of choosing for or against God based upon their own thinking (as opposed to their parents/peers), how would God be upholding the freedom to choose if He condemned those who never had a chance to choose? By accepting them into heaven He demonstrates that He is merciful, loving, and compassionate towards those who cannot make the choice. These are all signs that God is indeed good.
 
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TurtleAnne

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I think that first it is important to grasp the concept of a soul, which is separate from the brain organ. While the brain organ is a miraculous tool that serves a great many functions, a soul is separate from the brain organ, just like a soul is separate from the lungs, liver or kidneys.

The soul has free will, and there are several examples in the Bible that show that God knows a soul before it is put into a body forming in the womb. This makes sense also when considering that very young children can have faith, there souls can have faith, even if their brain organs are not matured. Jesus went on to explain this in greater depth, such as in Mark 10:15, "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." This is because children a born with souls that have faith, before their brain organs mature and could actually get in the way of that for some people.

Furthermore understanding of how it is the soul that has free will, and not the brain organ, can be seen in some of the more heinous psychological experiments performed and attempted by very wicked people throughout history. Consider such endeavors as MKUltra, which happened in relatively very recent history: Project MKUltra - Wikipedia

Very wicked humans have been trying for a long time to figure out how to play God by trying to figure out how to control the brain organ, but as usual they are fools in the end, because free will is a matter of the soul, which no humans can strike or control in each other. Even if a victim's brain were to be severely damaged, broken down and controlled, the victim's soul cannot be touched, because God knew their soul before they even had a brain organ at all, and so just as an infant can still have faith and enter the kingdom of God, so, too, can a soul whose brain has been severely damaged or even controlled by others, also have faith and enter the kingdom of God.
 
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Greg J.

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Hi BubbaJack. I hope AvgJoe won't mind me responding for him. Since young children have not reached the age where they are capable of choosing for or against God based upon their own thinking (as opposed to their parents/peers), how would God be upholding the freedom to choose if He condemned those who never had a chance to choose? By accepting them into heaven He demonstrates that He is merciful, loving, and compassionate towards those who cannot make the choice. These are all signs that God is indeed good.
@food4thought's response brought this to mind:

Not to throw a wrench into people's existing effort to seek to understand this scenario... but also consider the degree to which and in what ways God holds parents responsible for their young* children.

*Even Jesus didn't know the difference between right and wrong as a young child: before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right (from Isaiah 7:16, 1984 NIV)
 
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zippy2006

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Consider this (and I'm speaking of course to those Christians who affirm free will); most Evangelical Christians seem to believe that babies and young children who die go to heaven, no ifs ands or buts. But if God is okay with accepting these into heaven without them making a choice in regards to salvation, then is free will as important as many assert it is?

Supposing that infants who die do go to heaven, why would this make free will less important? Certainly it means that the exercise of free will is not necessary in each and every case. So if Jon thinks the exercise of free will is necessary in each and every case, then this admission would show that free will is not as important as Jon believes it to be. But I don't know too many folks who hold what Jon holds; I don't know that "many assert it is [that important]."
 
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Sketcher

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Consider this (and I'm speaking of course to those Christians who affirm free will); most Evangelical Christians seem to believe that babies and young children who die go to heaven, no ifs ands or buts. But if God is okay with accepting these into heaven without them making a choice in regards to salvation, then is free will as important as many assert it is?
I don't see how the importance of free will by those who can exercise it would be downplayed by those who cannot. One could argue that free will is important enough to be grown into, in spite of the risks inherent to it.
 
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Hawkins

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Consider this (and I'm speaking of course to those Christians who affirm free will); most Evangelical Christians seem to believe that babies and young children who die go to heaven, no ifs ands or buts. But if God is okay with accepting these into heaven without them making a choice in regards to salvation, then is free will as important as many assert it is?

You miss the point. God knows who is who from the very beginning. However it's not a valid witnessing if only God alone knows. Free will is for humans to show up who they are openly in front of the angels (as witnesses). This cover humans in majority but not without exceptions. Say, God's chosen witnesses may see Him directly. Others such as children died or those handicapped may be either part of or excluded from the open witnessing process.

If children in Africa die on a daily basis, it only shows that humans (people like you and I) are cruel enough to use their money to surf the Internet instead of saving the money to save them. In this case perhaps we are shown openly to be the murderers when God's Law is to be applied. May be that's why we all need redemption of some sort.
 
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KevinSim

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Freewill is so important to God that even though he is doing all he can to save people, he will let people choose their way into eternal punishment.
Does eternal punishment mean those punished will end up suffering in extreme agony forever?
 
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