Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[BNR32FAN]

How does it make sense that people have to obey commandments in order to be saved if they were already saved by faith apart from works? It doesn't make sense.

As I point out in the OP these Neo-Circumcision types don't actually believe that people have already been saved by faith. They view salvation status as not determined until the end and that based upon a person's performance - how well they obeyed a set of commandments. It's salvation by works no matter how well they try to disguise it with misleading rhetoric.

Because people can lose their salvation.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough. I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished. I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves. For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, " YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.”
‭‭GALATIANS‬ ‭5:4-25‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul is addressing Galatians who have backslid into Judiasm. Seeking justification by obedience to the law. Because of this they have “fallen from grace”. That had it and fell away. Now is Paul teaching that obedience to God is not necessary for salvation? No he is simply teaching that people cannot be made right with God by obeying the law. There’s a big difference in trying to earn salvation by works and working to serve God out of love for Him and others.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not pointless at all. You're confusing the cause of salvation with its effect. If you put a pot of water on a flame eventually steam will result. You're basically saying it's crazy to deny that the steam caused the pot to heat up or crazy to infer that the absence of steam proves the absence of the flame. Crazy to you.

Cause & effect doesn’t fit the situation because we must abide in Christ to receive salvation. We do not receive salvation until we die or Jesus’ second coming. A person can have the promise of being saved but it is conditional. Anyone who fails to abide in Christ will not receive salvation regardless if they had believed before or not.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Obedience means all the time. If your obedient only most of the time you are disobedient

All of the time and in everything said we must do by the one we believe in. It's all or nothing. But some want to take the term "believe" and minimize as much as they can in their minds so when someone claims to believe enough to get to heaven it becomes a very easy thing to do. But it's only easy because they are pretending "believe" means all but nothing, it's little more than a word they say.

 

[Halbhh]

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

It's simpler about what we obey, and why, both --

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

Christ's commandments, which He said, in person.

And for salvation by grace through faith... it matters whether your faith endures, right. And here's the key to whether it will endure, by His word:

Matthew 7:24-27.

Will your faith endure, or fail? It will endure anything if you hear and do as Christ said to you to do.

 

[BNR32FAN]

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was counted as righteous, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed as obedience, and his obedience did not earn being declared righteous through his obedience.

Salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like being trained by grace to live in obedience to it through faith. So there is removing the need to be willing to obey God's Law from the concept of salvation, however, there is the need to have a correct understanding of the purpose of that obedience. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to it has always been about expressing our faith in Him to guide us and has never been about trying to earn something that God is obligated to pay us. So our obedience does not earn what Christ accomplished on the cross on our behalf and does not earn God being gracious to us by teaching us to obey His Law (Psalm 119:29), but rather it is about responding on faith to those things. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we have been saved by grace through faith, not be doing good works lest anyone should boast, but rather we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works, so again doing good works in obedience to God's Law has never been about earning something, but about responding in faith to what God has done and is doing.

Amen I completely agree with everything you’ve said. My point is not about earning salvation it’s about receiving salvation. I’m simply saying we must abide in Christ in order to receive salvation. Jesus said if we keep His commandments we will abide in His love. He also said “he who abides in Me and I in Him, he will bear much fruit”. Both obedience and bearing fruit (good works) are necessary to receive salvation.

 

[JacksBratt]

Final salvation is contingent upon truly believing in Christ, by doing as he says we MUST do/being obedient. Of we do not believe Christ fully, we do not believe in Christ, so salvation is out the window, right off.

What is "final Salvation" again?

Did the thief on the cross have "final salvation"?

What did he do to get it?

 

[bcbsr]

Eternal life is promised for righteous. That is why, when sins are forgiven, person should be and remain righteous to get the eternal life. And if person is righteous, he does righteous actions. And I believe that is the reason why eternal life is for righteous. They understand how to live well. If unrighteous would get eternal life, they would turn it to eternal suffering for all.

Realize that you're describing salvation by works. I want you to know that eternal life can be gained right now in the present once can escape God's future wrath as if right now the person has transitioned from death to life. "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24 Under the New Covenant it is promised that "I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Heb 8:12 To believe the gospel is to believe this good news. "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:1,2 You're thinking of the law of sin and death in which sin controls your destiny. If a person sins, then he is subject to condemnation. Part of the good news is that those who believe the gospel are no longer subject to the law.

As for dealing with sinfulness, God deals differently with it under the New Covenant than under the Old.You're thinking of the Old where sinfulness was dealt with through threats of condemnation. But under the New God deals with sinfulness through regeneration, changing a person's nature such that "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

 

[JacksBratt]

Obedience means all the time. If your obedient only most of the time you are disobedient

I beg to differ... I was an obedient child... from what my parents tell me.. However, when I was not obedient, I was disciplined... ya.. the old fashioned way... on my butt.

I was obedient... not perfect... not defiant... not contentious...

 

[JacksBratt]

I have understood salvation means that sins are forgiven and so person is saved from the death that is the wage of sin. That is freely for all. Now, after one is saved from the judgment and the sin is forgiven, person should be righteous and not continue in sin. Forgiveness is not useful, if person continues in sin. It can be compared to car wash. If you wash your car, it is clean and fine, but if you right after that mess up it again, the washing was not useful. Same is with forgiveness, it doesn’t matter, if the old sins are forgiven, if you collect new.


These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Eternal life is promised for righteous. That is why, when sins are forgiven, person should be and remain righteous to get the eternal life. And if person is righteous, he does righteous actions. And I believe that is the reason why eternal life is for righteous. They understand how to live well. If unrighteous would get eternal life, they would turn it to eternal suffering for all.

Person must be born anew. Then person will do good works. But the works are not something that saves. Person is already saved then (from the judgment that is death).

'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

So... salvation is progressive?

 

[truefiction1]

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

It's whatever the Orthodox Christian Church says that it is.

So it is both free and from the Commandments, at once, because grace is not separate of humility, and humility is learned by constant failures with regards to keeping God's Commandments. The law is teacher, teaching the need for grace. Cease to try to keep the Commandments and you cease to receive grace, because grace comes only to the humble (1 Peter 5:5-6) (James 4:6-7). And so the Apostles teach us to obey God's Commandments if we want to be saved by grace, and this is the teaching they have left in their Lord's Church.

 

[JacksBratt]

Cause & effect doesn’t fit the situation because we must abide in Christ to receive salvation. We do not receive salvation until we die or Jesus’ second coming. A person can have the promise of being saved but it is conditional. Anyone who fails to abide in Christ will not receive salvation regardless if they had believed before or not.

I disagree... we are saved from the moment we accept our savior and humbly admit our sins...

We are then new creatures and we are in this world but not of this world.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Yes, imperfect obedience would include having been disobedient at some point. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we've failed to have perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then there would have no value. However, repentance does have value, so even though we have not managed to have perfect obedience, there is still value in returning to obedience after we have been disobedient, which means that there was never the need to have perfect obedience.

The Law itself came instructions for what to do when people sinned, so perfect obedience was never the expectation or the requirement to earn anything. The consistent message of the prophets up to an including Jesus was to repent from our sins and to return to obedience to God's Law, which would have been pointless if we needed to have perfect obedience because it would already be too late, so the key has always been the need to continue to practice repentance if we sin.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that His Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is not based on whether or not we have perfect obedience, but on whether we choose to follow God or to chase after other gods. It was about picking which mountain we are going to climb, not about the need to never stumble. While it is true that everyone in the OT fell short of perfect obedience, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God, just those who chased after other gods.

Got it. Thanks!

 

[GodsGrace101]

The point is that Catholicism, along with other Neo-Circumcision sects, advocate a soteriology which is incompatible and irreconcilable with how many of us Christians view the gospel. The two categories of belief are clearly distinct from one another as much as much as the dichotomy of viewpoints Paul deals with in Romans 10 and Galatians and so forth concerning salvation.

While advocating justification by faith apart from works, Catholicism views final salvation as contingent upon works, and thus advocates salvation by works. In fact even the term "justification" is misconstrued in Catholicism to mean simply the God puts you in the starting gate on the road to salvation, the outcome being dependent upon you, your works. And even your rhetoric denying that believers are already saved is to us a rejection of the gospel, despite Jesus saying, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." and despite Paul saying, "it is by grace you have been saved" and despite John saying, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

The outcome is NOT dependent on our works...
it's dependent on our obedience to God.

We obey out of faith.
Romans 16:17 states that we are to turn away from those that cause dissention and hindrances CONTRARY to the TEACHING which we learned.

And what did we learn?
Romans 15:4 Paul says that whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope.

If you care to learn what Jesus and Paul taught, just go through his letters:
Romans 13:8-11
1 Corinthians 9:1-12
2 Corinthians 13:5-6
Galatians 5:17-21
Ephesians 5:1-6

etc.
Paul mentions our behavior in every letter of his...so I must believe it is of utmost importance.

 

[bcbsr]

Because people can lose their salvation.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

This is speaking of those who alleged faith in Christ, outwardly identified with Christ, grafting themselves into Christianity on the surface, but not with a deeply rooted faith. Knowing about Christ, but not knowing him personally. They're like the ground associate with the path upon with the seed of the word fell, whose faith wasn't rooted, so when trouble came because of the word, like pressure from the Neo-Circumcision groups, they departed from the faith and turned to a salvation-by-works soteriology, such is advocated by many on these forums. They've fallen from the gospel of grace into a performance based salvation concept. And this due to the influence of those who promote such a soteriology, whose condemnation is justified as Paul said, "Even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

But as for those of us who have genuine faith in Christ, we cannot be moved. Heb 3:14 "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end" As it indicates, since they did not confidently believe steadfastly, therefore they had not been partakers of Christ.

For Once Saved, Always Saved to be in effect, the Once Saved has to first occur.

 

[Kenny'sID]

What is "final Salvation" again?

Did the thief on the cross have "final salvation"?

What did he do to get it?

He was given it by Jesus and he had to do noting because he could do noting, like you know, a death bed confession. Would you tel you dying just saved loved on to get out of that bed if it kills you and do some works?

See, Jesus had the good sense to know the thief not going to be around to do his works or even be good. This is what we call an exception to the rule, plain and simple, that OSAS tries to USE and twist into something else when the truth is so clear.

Here is another, would you expect your quadriplegic roommate to do the same chores you do around the house or would you aromatically know he can't do those things so you don't expect him to?

These are some of the most basic actions that anyone, even the Atheist with the slightest bit of common sense/compassion understands, and we should expect Jesus of all people not to do that?

 

[Concord1968]

The outcome is NOT dependent on our works...
it's dependent on our obedience to God.

We obey out of faith.
Romans 16:17 states that we are to turn away from those that cause dissention and hindrances CONTRARY to the TEACHING which we learned.

And what did we learn?
Romans 15:4 Paul says that whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope.

If you care to learn what Jesus and Paul taught, just go through his letters:
Romans 13:8-11
1 Corinthians 9:1-12
2 Corinthians 13:5-6
Galatians 5:17-21
Ephesians 5:1-6

etc.
Paul mentions our behavior in every letter of his...so I must believe it is of utmost importance.

Except that obedience IS a work.

 

[bcbsr]

We do not receive salvation until we die or Jesus’ second coming.

Incorrect. (But such a comment is consistent with your salvation-by-works view)

"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1John 5:11-13

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith" Eph 2:8

 

[GodsGrace101]

But these have no root;

John 2:23 can shed more light on it.

23 While He was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the signs He was doing and believed in His name. 24 But Jesus did not entrust Himself to them, for He knew all men.

These people saw the signs and believed. Maybe they were even joyous. But Jesus did not entrust Himself to them. Jesus knew they had no roots.



Only some? No, many modern day churches teach that.

Hear, hear start at 16:00

I listened to Sproul.
I want you to know that I like many sermons of the calvinist taste. The problem is that they come to scripture with pre-conceived notions and exegete them that way.

He's right that some only believe with their mind.
But we have to be careful...when the BIBLE speaks about BELIEVING, it means a certain type of believing -- NOT as we understand believe today.

As you must know, it means believing with the heart and trusting the person we believe in and wanting to follow them, learn from them, and be like them. If we believe in Jesus all the above applies to HIM.

Now, no matter how convincing Sproul might be...I prefer to trust JESUS and believe what HE said.
Jesus said the seed fell on some soil - rocky soil -
They receive the word WITH JOY and BELIEVE for A WHILE, but not having firm root when persecution or trials come along, they FALL AWAY.
Luke 8:13

If Jesus says they believed for a while, why don't you believe Him? How could you prefer to believe Sproul or any other preacher?

Jesus is clearly stating that some could believe for a while and then fall away.

Can't get clearer than that.

 

[bcbsr]

It's whatever the Orthodox Christian Church says that it is.

So it is both free and from the Commandments, at once, because grace is not separate of humility, and humility is learned by constant failures with regards to keeping God's Commandments. The law is teacher, teaching the need for grace. Cease to try to keep the Commandments and you cease to receive grace, because grace comes only to the humble (1 Peter 5:5-6) (James 4:6-7). And so the Apostles teach us to obey God's Commandments if we want to be saved by grace, and this is the teaching they have left in their Lord's Church.

That makes about as much sense as someone claiming to give us a "free gift", but we have to pay for it. (Many deceptive advertisers with try that trick)

 

[bcbsr]

The outcome is NOT dependent on our works...
it's dependent on our obedience to God.
.

Which is the usual double talk of salvation-by-works Christians claiming "it's not dependent on doing works, it's dependent on use doing works out of obedience in order to qualify to be saved". Same thing. Same philosophy as righteousness by the law. Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live (gain eternal life) by them." Rom 10:5