Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[Loversofjesus_2018]

I believe they are with The Lord now. What do you think?

Even though they didn’t always do what Jesus asked as according to scripture. Then doesn’t that mean works can’t be a requirement?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes. However, the reason why we are required to obey God is not in order to become saved, but because we have been and are being saved. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to obey God, so participating in this training by grace to live in obedience to God through faith isn't something that we need to do in order to earn our salvation, but rather it is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God looks like. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so again being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law through faith is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like.

This is just crazy because I’m one breath your saying obedience is not necessary for salvation and in the next breath your saying a person who is saved will be obedient. This doesn’t make any sense at all. This would also imply that the person who is not obedient is not saved because he didn’t possess the quality of obedience. This is a pointless message.

 

[Danthemailman]

Not "in order to be saved", but rather because he has been born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1Jo 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

1John 5:2,4 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world.

Don't confuse the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved.

Amen brother! Well said. This is what happens when people confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. The end result is salvation by works.

 

[bcbsr]

So your saying those who are saved will obey God’s commandments but they don’t have to? How does that make any sense?

How does it make sense that people have to obey commandments in order to be saved if they were already saved by faith apart from works? It doesn't make sense.

As I point out in the OP these Neo-Circumcision types don't actually believe that people have already been saved by faith. They view salvation status as not determined until the end and that based upon a person's performance - how well they obeyed a set of commandments. It's salvation by works no matter how well they try to disguise it with misleading rhetoric.

 

[Concord1968]

This is where I’m so confused. Jesus didn’t say try as much as possible. He said do it. If Jesus said try to do this as much as possible then I guess I’d understand a little more regarding scriptures lol. Thanks for helping me out though. Always appreciated it.

Ok. You're missing the whole point of the Law. The Law (The Old Testament and Christ's commands) Is, in fact, impossible to keep. It exists to convict the sinner of their sin and show the futility of ever being righteous before God. This results in the sinner clinging solely to Christ's atonement for his salvation.

The Law exists to drive sinners to Christ. Law and Gospel basics.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Ok. You're missing the whole point of the Law. The Law (The Old Testament and Christ's commands) Is, in fact, impossible to keep. It exists to convict the sinner of their sin and show the futility of ever being righteous before God. This results in the sinner clinging solely to Christ's atonement for his salvation.

The Law exists to drive sinners to Christ. Law and Gospel basics.

So then works doesn’t save you correct?

 

[Concord1968]

So then works doesn’t save you correct?

Nope. Grace and faith in Christ and his atonement saves you.

 

[bcbsr]

This is just crazy because I’m one breath your saying obedience is not necessary for salvation and in the next breath your saying a person who is saved will be obedient. This doesn’t make any sense at all. This would also imply that the person who is not obedient is not saved because he didn’t possess the quality of obedience. This is a pointless message.

Not pointless at all. You're confusing the cause of salvation with its effect. If you put a pot of water on a flame eventually steam will result. You're basically saying it's crazy to deny that the steam caused the pot to heat up or crazy to infer that the absence of steam proves the absence of the flame. Crazy to you.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Nope. Grace and faith in Christ and his atonement saves you.

Seems like the only way since even our best obedience isn’t all that obedient. Thanks!

 

[bcbsr]

Not pointless at all. You're confusing the cause of salvation with its effect. If you put a pot of water on a flame eventually steam will result. You're basically saying it's crazy to deny that the steam caused the pot to heat up, or crazy to think that the absence of steam shows the absence of the flame. Crazy to you.

 

[Soyeong]

Obedience means doing something every time all the time. Are we capable of achieving true obedience?

The fact that our salvation involves being trained by grace to obey God implies that we do not become perfectly obedience on the day that we accept Christ. In Philippians 1:6, he who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus, and if we became perfectly obedient when we accepted Christ, then there would would be nothing left to complete on that day, so it is an ongoing process that will not be completed until then. So if we sin, then we will repent. Again, if we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then there would be no point in reptance because it would already be too late to have that, so the fact that repentance has value means that obedience that is less than perfect has value.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Final salvation is contingent upon truly believing in Christ, by doing as he says we MUST do/being obedient. Of we do not believe Christ fully, we do not believe in Christ, so salvation is out the window, right off.

 

[bcbsr]

Final salvation is contingent upon truly believing in Christ, by doing as he says we MUST do/being obedient. Of we do not believe Christ fully, we do not believe in Christ, so salvation is out the window, right off.

And do you believe Christ "fully" when he said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

The fact that our salvation involves being trained by grace to obey God implies that we do not become perfectly obedience on the day that we accept Christ. In Philippians 1:6, he who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus, and if we became perfectly obedient when we accepted Christ, then there would would be nothing left to complete on that day, so it is an ongoing process that will not be completed until then. So if we sin, then we will repent. Again, if we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then there would be no point in reptance because it would already be too late to have that, so the fact that repentance has value means that obedience that is less than perfect has value.

I guess I’m confused because is there a such thing as obedience that’s less than perfect? Isn’t that disobedience?

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Final salvation is contingent upon truly believing in Christ, by doing as he says we MUST do/being obedient. Of we do not believe Christ fully, we do not believe in Christ, so salvation is out the window, right off.

Obedience means all the time. If your obedient only most of the time you are disobedient

 

[1213]

...What is your view of Final Salvation?

I have understood salvation means that sins are forgiven and so person is saved from the death that is the wage of sin. That is freely for all. Now, after one is saved from the judgment and the sin is forgiven, person should be righteous and not continue in sin. Forgiveness is not useful, if person continues in sin. It can be compared to car wash. If you wash your car, it is clean and fine, but if you right after that mess up it again, the washing was not useful. Same is with forgiveness, it doesn’t matter, if the old sins are forgiven, if you collect new.


These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46


For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Eternal life is promised for righteous. That is why, when sins are forgiven, person should be and remain righteous to get the eternal life. And if person is righteous, he does righteous actions. And I believe that is the reason why eternal life is for righteous. They understand how to live well. If unrighteous would get eternal life, they would turn it to eternal suffering for all.

Person must be born anew. Then person will do good works. But the works are not something that saves. Person is already saved then (from the judgment that is death).

'You must be born anew.'
John 3:3-7

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

 

[Concord1968]

Obedience means all the time. If your obedient only most of the time you are disobedient

The bottom line is everyone sins every moment of every day in thought, word, and deed. Even the act of drawing breath is a sin. The reason is that unless those thoughts, words, and deeds are done with perfect purity of heart out of love for God, then those thoughts, words, and deeds fall short and are sins. It's impossible for humans to do, hence the need for a savior. We have to be cloaked in Christ's righteousness, because are own just won't cut it.

 

[Soyeong]

This is just crazy because I’m one breath your saying obedience is not necessary for salvation and in the next breath your saying a person who is saved will be obedient. This doesn’t make any sense at all. This would also imply that the person who is not obedient is not saved because he didn’t possess the quality of obedience. This is a pointless message.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was counted as righteous, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac, so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed as obedience, and his obedience did not earn being declared righteous through his obedience.

Salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like being trained by grace to live in obedience to it through faith. So there is removing the need to be willing to obey God's Law from the concept of salvation, however, there is the need to have a correct understanding of the purpose of that obedience. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law, so obedience to it has always been about expressing our faith in Him to guide us and has never been about trying to earn something that God is obligated to pay us. So our obedience does not earn what Christ accomplished on the cross on our behalf and does not earn God being gracious to us by teaching us to obey His Law (Psalm 119:29), but rather it is about responding on faith to those things. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we have been saved by grace through faith, not be doing good works lest anyone should boast, but rather we have been made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works, so again doing good works in obedience to God's Law has never been about earning something, but about responding in faith to what God has done and is doing.

 

[Soyeong]

I guess I’m confused because is there a such thing as obedience that’s less than perfect? Isn’t that disobedience?

Yes, imperfect obedience would include having been disobedient at some point. Repentance doesn't change the fact that we've failed to have perfect obedience, so if we needed to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then there would have no value. However, repentance does have value, so even though we have not managed to have perfect obedience, there is still value in returning to obedience after we have been disobedient, which means that there was never the need to have perfect obedience.

The Law itself came instructions for what to do when people sinned, so perfect obedience was never the expectation or the requirement to earn anything. The consistent message of the prophets up to an including Jesus was to repent from our sins and to return to obedience to God's Law, which would have been pointless if we needed to have perfect obedience because it would already be too late, so the key has always been the need to continue to practice repentance if we sin.

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that His Law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is not based on whether or not we have perfect obedience, but on whether we choose to follow God or to chase after other gods. It was about picking which mountain we are going to climb, not about the need to never stumble. While it is true that everyone in the OT fell short of perfect obedience, everyone being under God's curse does not reflect the reality of what is recorded about those who served God, just those who chased after other gods.

 

[Kenny'sID]

And do you believe Christ "fully" when he said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

You just keep getting in deeper.

Of course i believe that we have to "believe" him who sent me"

Problem is, you don't want to believe all of what he that sent Jesus says to do, just enough of the term "believe" that makes it easy to believe and that makes believing pretty much nothing, Not the real belief that makes you do as they say to do.

I already explained, you cannot claim to believe without doing as God/Jesus says we must do. If you do not do what they said to do, you do not have true belief, just one that you can pretend means we don't have to do as God/Jesus says we MUST do. Or just enough to pretend it's enough to get to heaven when, again, it's not true belief at all, so it's not enough to get to heaven.