Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[GodsGrace101]

The issue is that the Bible describes our salvation in the past, present, and future tenses, so our salvation is all-encompassing in that we have been saved from the penalty of our sins (Ephesians 2:8), we are being saving from continuing to live in sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10). In Titus 2:11-14, it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct us how to do. Furthermore, it says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so it describes both past and present aspects of our salvation.

Our salvation is not contingent upon our obedience to God's Law, but rather our salvation and our obedience to God's Law are both contingent upon the same faith. The same faith that upholds our justification also upholds our obedience to God's Law (Romans 3:31), so everyone who has been justified by faith will also be a doer of God's Law by the same faith, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only doers of the Law who will be justified.

So....
In one word...
are we required to obey God?

Yes or No.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

I’m not aware of anything other than justification, sanctification, and salvation. Initial salvation and final salvation are not mentioned anywhere in the scriptures. Salvation is contingent on acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, being born again, walking in the Spirit, and abiding in Christ. If any one of those are not present when a person dies they will not receive salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Lord, to whom shall we go?

Of course.
But I also know that I have to obey Him.

John 14:15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Jesus said we must keep His commandments IF we love Him...not me.

Or my personal favorite

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 JOHN 2:3-6 NASB

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Or my personal favorite

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 JOHN 2:3-6 NASB

Is there anybody who keeps his commandments? I know ally of people who keep them some or most of the time but that’s not keeping them

 

[bcbsr]

Or my personal favorite

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”

1 JOHN 2:3-6 NASB

Not "in order to be saved", but rather because he has been born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1Jo 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

1John 5:2,4 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world.

Don't confuse the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved.

 

[JacksBratt]

So....
In one word...
are we required to obey God?

Yes or No.

One word... NO.


We are not required... but a true saved heart will not willingly disobey.
It's not a "God save me... OK, now I"m saved, lets raise hell".

Anyone who has come to see the light of their existence and that they are a sinner with no hope of salvation... got down on their knees and admitted such... believe that Christ is the door and the only way to be forgiven...humbled their self to admit this.... is not going to just carry on the way they were. We become new creatures.

Their desire will be for God.. Their desire will not be to keep sinning... They will keep sinning but their desire will be to turn from all sin.

 

[JacksBratt]

Is there anybody who keeps his commandments? I know ally of people who keep them some or most of the time but that’s not keeping them

I doubt that there is very many people that even come close to keeping all of the commandments... even after they have been saved and are God fearing Christians.

Anyone who says that they do... IMO... is lying. Which is a sin.. by the way.

 

[Danthemailman]

How much faith is required?

It's not about how much faith, but what is the OBJECT of our faith. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. That is the narrow road.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is salvation through faith + works. I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Roman Catholic church did not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he contradicted himself by making this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about the Roman Catholic church not teaching salvation by works, then afterwards, stating that faith is defined as and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. It's just smoke and mirrors.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

Woah wait a minute you mean he said faith requires faithfulness, trustworthiness and fidelity?!! Where did he get that idea from?...Oh yeah it was probably from the definition of the word pistis.

 

[Danthemailman]

Depends how one understands that "will" doesn't it?
IOW, what you're saying is that God is going to force us to keep His commandments.

Is that what you believe?

I believe we retain our free will after salvation.
So to me the "will" is dependent on the IF.
IF we love Jesus we will, of our own volition, keep His commandments. He's not going to force us to keep them....which is how YOU understand it.

Keeping His commandments is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God. So once again, it's not about must or else for those who love Jesus, but will. IF validates WILL. We must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Woah wait a minute you mean he said faith requires faithfulness, trustworthiness and fidelity?!! Where did he get that idea from?...Oh yeah it was probably from the definition of the word pistis.

but we aren’t faithful all the time and we aren’t trustworthy all the time

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is there anybody who keeps his commandments? I know ally of people who keep them some or most of the time but that’s not keeping them

Well let’s look at the examples of the men Jesus picked to spread the gospel. Were they perfectly sinless? No, but did they try their very best to refrain from sin? Yes.

 

[Soyeong]

So....
In one word...
are we required to obey God?

Yes or No.

Yes. However, the reason why we are required to obey God is not in order to become saved, but because we have been and are being saved. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to obey God, so participating in this training by grace to live in obedience to God through faith isn't something that we need to do in order to earn our salvation, but rather it is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God looks like. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so again being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law through faith is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Not "in order to be saved", but rather because he has been born of God.

1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1Jo 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

1John 5:2,4 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world.

Don't confuse the condition to be saved with the condition of the saved.

So your saying those who are saved will obey God’s commandments but they don’t have to? How does that make any sense?

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Well let’s look at the examples of the men Jesus picked to spread the gospel. Were they perfectly sinless? No, but did they try their very best to refrain from sin? Yes.[/QUOTE

Yes but my question is did they succeed or does anybody succeed in doing what Jesus commanded?

 

[BNR32FAN]

but we aren’t faithful all the time and we aren’t trustworthy all the time

Neither were the apostles but they sure strives to be as much as possible.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Yes. However, the reason why we are required to obey God is not in order to become saved, but because we have been and are being saved. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to obey God, so participating in this training by grace to live in obedience to God through faith isn't something that we need to do in order to earn our salvation, but rather it is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God looks like. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as the transgression of God's Law (1 John 3:4), so again being trained by grace to live in obedience to God's Law through faith is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God's Law looks like.

Obedience means doing something every time all the time. Are we capable of achieving true obedience?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I believe they are with The Lord now. What do you think?

 

[Danthemailman]

Woah wait a minute you mean he said faith requires faithfulness, trustworthiness and fidelity?!! Where did he get that idea from?...Oh yeah it was probably from the definition of the word pistis.

So how much faithfulness, trustworthiness and fidelity does it take? That type of reasoning leads to performance based works salvation. Are you trusting in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation or are you ALSO trusting in your performance/accomplishments/works to save you as well?

The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Neither were the apostles but they sure strives to be as much as possible.

This is where I’m so confused. Jesus didn’t say try as much as possible. He said do it. If Jesus said try to do this as much as possible then I guess I’d understand a little more regarding scriptures lol. Thanks for helping me out though. Always appreciated it.