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Featured Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by bcbsr, Jun 10, 2019.

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  1. Shimokita

    Shimokita Well-Known Member

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    No, Sacred Scripture teaches that a person who has been saved is capable of sinning deliberately.

    26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    The text states if "we" go on sinning deliberately. Are you now trying to tell us that the author of the Letter to the Hebrews was not saved?

    And it says that the same people who are warned were "sanctified by the blood of the covenant." Are you trying to tell me that a person who was sanctified by the blood of the covenant was not saved?

    Your argument is getting weaker and weaker by the moment my friend.
     
  2. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Thought 1John 3:9 covered that. And since we also know that Jesus said, "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.", we know that whatever behavior is characteristic of those who are condemned is not the behavior of those subsequently born God, of whom there is no condemnation, who are guaranteed eternal life as if they had already passed from death to life.

    "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." 1Cor 6:9-11

    Why the past tense? Because apparently those born of God don't behave in such a manner any more. Why is that? 1John 3:9
     
  3. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    As I've shown elsewhere, and Kenneth Wuest, a translator of the NASB, agrees with me, that passage in Heb 6 is referring to nominal Christians who become apostate.
     
  4. Shimokita

    Shimokita Well-Known Member

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    I didn't quote 1 Cor 6:9-11. Besides, the fact that a person is washed does not mean that he is incapable of becoming dirty again. You have taken a shower. Surely you must realize this. And that is precisely why St. Paul, immediately following the text you quoted, goes on the warn those same Christians he is speaking to about sexual immorality including sleeping with prostitutes. Why is St. Paul warning Christians about not sleeping with hookers? Obviously because Christians are capable of sleeping with hookers. Just go ask Jimmy Swaggart if you don't believe me.
     
  5. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Actually that is not what the scriptures say at all. You really stuggle here brother don't you and rightly so. These scripture make the whole false gospel of once saved always saved come crashing down. Let's look at the detail you leave out..

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 [4], For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5], And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    Who are we talking about here; BELIEVERS of UNBELIEVERS? Were these BELIEVERS Born again christians?

    KEY POINTS OF THE PEOPLE DESCRIBED IN HEBREWS 6:4-8 THAT WE ARE WARNED ABOUT..

    1. They were enlightened v4;
    2. They tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
    3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
    4. They tasted of the good Word of God v4;
    5. They tasted of the power of the world to come v5

    [6], If they shall fall away, to renew them again to repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    They were BORN AGAIN BELIEVERS who had fallen away from the HEAVENLY gift back into sin and GRIEVED the HOLY SPIRIT so it departed from them..

    [7], For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft on it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
    [8], But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is near to cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    Yep thier end is to be burned does not sound like they will be going into God's Kingdom not having any REPENTANCE for sin (v6).

    HEBREWS 10:26-27 [26], FOR IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE RECEIVE A KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    Yep seems like those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN are God's Adversaries who will receive the judgments of God. Do you think these people will enter into God's Kingdom?

    Sorry brother this is only posted in all love and respect and only as a help to you. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it. Once saved always saved is the false Gospel given to EVE back in the Garden of Eden when the devil said if you eat of the forbidded fruit you shall not surely did.

    God bless.
     
  6. Shimokita

    Shimokita Well-Known Member

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    No, it does not refer to "nominal Christians". How many "nominal Christians" do you know that were sanctified by the blood of the covenant? Is our Lord's blood now not sufficient to save? That is a rather shameful thing to assert, no offense.
     
  7. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Thanks for sharing your opinion. But on the other hand taste is not the same as consume:

    Mt 27:34 they gave Him sour wine mingled with gall to drink. But when He had tasted it, He would not drink.

    Heb 6:4, I'll leave that up to Kenneth Wuest (A Translator of the NASB)
    Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, (NIV)

    Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (AV)

    "Partakers of the Holy Ghost"
    We must be careful to note that the Greek word translated "partakers" does not mean "possessors," in the sense that these Hebrews possessed the Holy Spirit as an indwelling Person who had come to take up His permanent abode in their hearts. The word is a compound of the Greek verb "to have or hold", and a preposition meaning "with" thus "to hold with." It is used in Luke 5:7 where it is translated "partners," signifying one who co-operates with another in a common task or undertaking. It is used in Hebrews 1:9 where the angels are "fellows" of our Lord, partners or associates with Him in the work of salvation. It is used in Hebrews 3:1 where the recipients of this letter are called participators in the heavenly calling. That is, they participated together in the heavenly calling. These Hebrews had left the earthly calling of the nation Israel, and had identified themselves with the Church which has a heavenly calling. It is used in Hebrews 3:14, where it speaks of those who participate together in the Lord Jesus.

    The word (metochos) was so used in secular Greek. Moulton and Milligan give examples of its usage in the following phrases: "We, Dionysius son of Socrates and the associate collectors;" Pikos son of Pamonthes and his colleagues," "the Joint-owner of a holding," "I am unable to take part in the cultivation," "Some do so because they are partners in their misdeeds." Thus the word signifies one who participates with another in a common activity or possession. It is so used here. These Hebrews became participators in the Holy Spirit insofar as an unsaved person can do so, namely, in the sense that they willingly co-operated with Him in receiving His pre-salvation ministry, that of leading them on step by step toward the act of faith. He had led them into the act of repentance. The next step would be that of faith. Here they were in danger of turning their backs upon the Spirit and returning to the sacrifices. Peter in his first epistle (1:2) in the words, "through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience," speaks of this work of the Holy Spirit on the unsaved, setting them apart from unbelief to faith. This word in its context does not at all imply that these Hebrews had been born of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, anointed with the Spirit, baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ, or filled with the Spirit. This work of the Holy Spirit in leading them on towards faith was a once-for-all work, so thoroughly done that it needed never to be repeated. However, there was nothing permanent of itself in this work, for the work was only a means to an end. This is shown by the aorist participle used, referring to the mere fact, not a perfect, speaking of a finished act having present results. The fact that the writer did not use the perfect tense here, which is a specialized tense, but rather the aorist, which is the maid of all work, points to the incompleteness of the work of the Spirit in the case of these Hebrews. So far as the work had been done, it was perfect, thorough. But it would not be complete until the Hebrews accepted the proffered faith from the Spirit. The incompleteness of the work would be due, therefore, not to the Spirit, but to their willingness to go on as a partner or cooperator with the Spirit.
     
  8. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    Salvation itself is always a free gift and always by grace, yet we are commanded to love others.
     
  9. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Where does it even mention "blood" in Hebrews 6?
     
  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    How does anything you have posted here address anything that you are responding to. It doesn't, All you have posted is someones interpretation that is not what the scriptures teach whatsoever.

    Yet it is God's WORD alone that says, these people ere BELIEVERS

    HEBREWS 6:4-8
    1. They were enlightened v4;
    2. They tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
    3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
    4. They tasted of the good Word of God v4;
    5. They tasted of the power of the world to come v5

    You cannot do any of the above without faith. This is where your commentators post falls to pieces.

    Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it. I suggest you believe it. There is no such thing as once saved always saved, OSAS is a false gospel.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  11. Shimokita

    Shimokita Well-Known Member

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  12. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Not in order to be saved. Some on these forums have stated that they can't imagine anyone obeying his commands if they're not under threat of eternal condemnation. Those who have been saved and subsequently born of God do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. In fact "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1John 4:18 And so since it's not possible to love if you're doing so out of fear of condemnation, then if salvation is contingent upon loving God and one's neighbor, as some claim, it would be impossible to be saved, seeing as they would be doing so not out of love but out of the self-seeking effort to be saved. Note even the Mt 25 sheep/goat scenario that many such people bring up. Notice that sheep weren't even consciously aware of doing what they were doing. It's like it just came naturally to them. Such is the case for those born of God.
     
  13. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Apparently you didn't read my response. Oh, is this yet another case where you claim that your interpretation is the Word of God, and thus if someone disagrees with your interpretation they are disagreeing with God. Didn't a moderator lock one of your other threads as a result of your making such a claim?
     
  14. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Which was not the subject.
     
  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    I read your response indeed.

    How does anything you have posted here address anything that you are responding to? It doesn't. All you have posted is someones interpretation that is not what the scriptures teach whatsoever.

    Yet it is God's WORD alone that says, these people are BELIEVERS

    HEBREWS 6:4-8
    1. They were enlightened v4;
    2. They tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
    3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
    4. They tasted of the good Word of God v4;
    5. They tasted of the power of the world to come v5

    You cannot do any of the above here without faith. This is where your commentators post falls to pieces as your commentator is arguing pre-salvation.

    Now dear brother, be honest here can we have any of the above before having FAITH? If they have faith and received all these gift of God then they were BELIEVERS right? Why prentend that they were not?

    Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it. I suggest you believe it. There is no such thing as once saved always saved, OSAS is a false gospel.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  16. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Yet you've provided no evidence to that end. Oh, what you mean is that since your interpretation is the Word of God, then if someone has a different interpretation than you they disagree with God. Ok, I see what you mean. I disagree with you.
    Doesn't indicate that those who fall away had any more than a taste of the Christian life.
    Yes, you can, as Wuest explains, and I explained.

    "Taste" is not the same as "consume".

    Mt 27:34 they gave Him sour wine mingled with gall to drink. But when He had tasted it, He would not drink.

    But this is simply repeating the same stuff you simply discarded out of hand. I guess it's because you feel that your interpretation is the Word of God. Is that about right?
    Yes there is, and it is inherent the gospel of grace, which you don't believe.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  17. Shimokita

    Shimokita Well-Known Member

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    Friend, go back and read my post #730. The Scripture verse that I recited, and the Scripture verse that you quoted in your response, was from Hebrews 10, not Hebrews 6.

    Did you even read the verse?

    I'm off for tonight. Good evening.
     
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    You did not read the post you were responding to did you?

    HEBREWS 6:4-8
    1. They were enlightened v4;
    2. They tasted of the Heavenly gift v4;
    3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost v5;
    4. They tasted of the good Word of God v4;
    5. They tasted of the power of the world to come v5

    You cannot do any of the above here without faith. This is where your commentators post falls to pieces as your commentator is arguing pre-salvation.

    Now dear brother, be honest here can we have any of the above before having FAITH? If they have faith and received all these gift of God then they were BELIEVERS right? Why prentend that they were not?

    Now I have never been one for commentators. It is only a second hand interpretation of the scriptures that may of may not be correct. They cannot even agree among themselvers what the scriptures means. I am happy to provide commentaries on this scripture if you like that do not support your interpretation of these scriptures just ask. This will not change the outcome though. However I do believe these scriptures speak for themselves and we should beleive them. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it *ROMANS 3:4

    OSAS is a false doctrine brother.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  19. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    Yes I did. I dealt both with your 1,2,4,5 regarding "taste" and Wuest dealt with your 3 about partakers. Apparently you didn't read my post?
     
  20. Shimokita

    Shimokita Well-Known Member

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    OSAS also clearly refuted at Romans 11. The wild olive shoot are gentile Christians who were grafted into Christ (the root). The natural branches are Jews. The text clearly teaches that the gentile Christians who were grafted into Christ can be "cut off" from Christ if they subsequently fall into unbelief. And you know that they are saved gentile Christians because the text states that they "stand fast through faith".

    17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.​

    Your argument keeps getting worse and worse and worse.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
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