Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

[GodsGrace101]

The saved are the animals that trust the Father to lock the stable door and throw away the key. The damned are those that hate that the Ark builder lets Animals on the Ark.

The mentality that thinks there is no Ark will become Ark believers at the final day of the Lord, or join the crew that hates that the Ark builder lets Animals on the Ark.

The mentality that thinks they can swim for 40 days and 40 nights just might get a chance to sink like Peter (walking on water) into the events of the last day, and cry out to Jesus for help at the last possible moment.

As for 2 Peter 2:2 ; 2 peter 2:20-22 and the like ... Christologically, it must use Trinitarian wisdom to discern.

The Son is in the Father... thus the Head of the Son is God, and He is God.

We are in the Son... thus our Head is the Son, and He is our God.

The Son stayed in the Father by perfectly surrendering to the Father's will. Something we cannot do. His sin would have been to deviate from His Father's will.

We stay in the Son, by "Believing" the Work of the Son is sufficient to save us. That's the easy yoke that yields everlasting Water of Faith, Hope and Love (Ephesians 1:13 ; Romans 8:9)... that flows within us, and even out of us towards all humanity. Our sin would be to DisBelieve the Son's sufficiency to save us.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you.

Thank you!

I agree that Jesus is all-sufficient.
I believe our sin is to disobey God.
Living in disobedience will cost us.
I think someone in the ark could demand to be let out.

I agree with the rest of what you posted.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Yes, you have described the basic flaw in the Protestant approach to salvation, namely the claim that someone still alive on Earth can be already "saved". Protestants claim they are "saved" when they do this or that (the exact requirements of course depend on the denomination, like all their beliefs). Then, when their pastor leaves his wife and runs off with his secretary, they say "He was never truly saved". Right! Exactly! But he thought he was. So why do they think they can be any more certain about their salvation than he was about his?
And what is your point about Catholic teaching on salvation? Yes, the one Church Jesus Christ founded does require its members to follow certain moral teachings that are not specifically mentioned in the 10 Commandments. Doesn't your church? Cheating is not specifically mentioned in the 10 Commandments. Neither is the use of inappropriate contentography. Or brutality. Jesus didn't tell the leaders of His Church "Just obey the 10 Commandments, and nothing else is required. What He did tell the leaders of His Church is "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Anyone who reads the Bible should know this.

 

[GodsGrace101]

To “keep” Greek word - “tereo” (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for Jesus, but not the meritorious means by which we obtain eternal life. The translation you quoted says, “IF you love Me, you WILL keep My commandments. So it’s not about must or else, but WILL.

Depends how one understands that "will" doesn't it?
IOW, what you're saying is that God is going to force us to keep His commandments.

Is that what you believe?

I believe we retain our free will after salvation.
So to me the "will" is dependent on the IF.
IF we love Jesus we will, of our own volition, keep His commandments. He's not going to force us to keep them....which is how YOU understand it.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Yes, you have described the basic flaw in the Protestant approach to salvation, namely the claim that someone still alive on Earth can be already "saved". Protestants claim they are "saved" when they do this or that (the exact requirements of course depend on the denomination, like all their beliefs). Then, when their pastor leaves his wife and runs off with his secretary, they say "He was never truly saved". Right! Exactly! But he thought he was. So why do they think they can be any more certain about their salvation than he was about his?
And what is your point about Catholic teaching on salvation? Yes, the one Church Jesus Christ founded does require its members to follow certain moral teachings that are not specifically mentioned in the 10 Commandments. Doesn't your church? Cheating is not specifically mentioned in the 10 Commandments. Neither is the use of inappropriate contentography. Or brutality. Jesus didn't tell the leaders of His Church "Just obey the 10 Commandments, and nothing else is required. What He did tell the leaders of His Church is "The Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". Anyone who reads the Bible should know this.

I agree with you, but to whom are you speaking?

 

[GodsGrace101]

It's been shown that if someone "returned to a life of sin" they were never saved to begin with OR they suffered a tragedy of faith. Considering that the tragedy can't snatch you from Jesus' hand or remove you from Gods love that person will remain chosen and saved.

They were never saved to begin with is not what Jesus taught.

HE taught that we could be saved FOR A WHILE and then fall from our faith.
Luke 8:13

Paul taught the same.
How do you explain
2 Timothy 4:1 ?

Only some modern day churches teach that a person was never saved to begin with.
How do you know for sure that you are saved? What are the signs? Do y ou believe it will be like this forever?

 

[-57]

Greetings Brothers and Sisters...

Well, when we read the letters to the Churches, they are filled with warnings about those who are not walking in the Spirit, but were either living carnally with a number of sin vices as listed. or were being influenced by false doctrine. You read the letters to the Corinthians, the Galatians, Hebrews, James, Peter... All of them have warnings.

So, possessing the Spirit does not guarantee your faithfulness or your salvation. The guarantee by God is that you are saved by reaming faithful, walking by the Spirit that dwells in you - to listen to and follow Jesus.

So the message to all Christians is to be careful lest we fall and fail to obtain the Promises of God to those who remain faithful to the end.

For those who are not afraid to read what the Scriptures say....

Hebrews 2:2-3 (NIV)
2 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation?

Hebrews 3:5-6
5 “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

Hebrews 3:12-19 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Hebrews 4:10 (ERV) So everyone who enters God’s place of rest will also have rest from their own work just as God did. 11 So let us try as hard as we can to enter God’s place of rest. We must try hard so that none of us will be lost by following the example of those who refused to obey God.

Hebrews 6 (ERV)
6 So we should be finished with the beginning lessons about Christ. We should not have to keep going back to where we started. We began our new life by turning away from the evil we did in the past and by believing in God.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (ERV) After people have left the way of Christ, can you make them change their lives again? I am talking about people who once learned the truth, received God’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. They were blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world. But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone.

Hebrews 6:9 (ERV) Dear friends, I am not saying this because I think it is happening to you. We really expect that you will do better—that you will do the good things that will result in your salvation. 10 God is fair, and he will remember all the work you have done. He will remember that you showed your love to him by helping his people and that you continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to be willing and eager to show your love like that the rest of your life. Then you will be sure to get what you hope for. 12 We don’t want you to be lazy. We want you to be like those who, because of their faith and patience, will get what God has promised.

Hebrews 10:22 (ERV) So come near to God with a sincere heart, full of confidence because of our faith in Christ. 23 We must hold on to the hope we have, never hesitating to tell people about it. We can trust God to do what he promised.

Hebrews 10:26-31 (WEB)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:35-36 (ERV)
35 So don’t lose the courage that you had in the past. Your courage will be rewarded richly. 36 You must be patient. After you have done what God wants, you will get what he promised you.

Hebrews 12:12-13 (ERV)
12 You have become weak, so make yourselves strong again. 13 Live in the right way so that you will be saved and your weakness will not cause you to be lost.

Hebrews 12:14-17 (ERV)
14 Try to live in peace with everyone. And try to keep your lives free from sin. Anyone whose life is not holy will never see the Lord. 15 Be careful that no one fails to get God’s grace. Be careful that no one loses their faith and becomes like a bitter weed growing among you. Someone like that can ruin your whole group. 16 Be careful that no one commits sexual sin. And be careful that no one is like Esau and never thinks about God. As the oldest son, Esau would have inherited everything from his father. But he sold all that for a single meal. 17 You remember that after Esau did this, he wanted to get his father’s blessing. He wanted that blessing so much that he cried. But his father refused to give him the blessing, because Esau could find no way to change what he had done.

Hebrews 13:4-5 (ERV)
4 God will judge guilty those who commit sexual sins and adultery. 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money. And be satisfied with what you have.

Hebrews 13:22-23 (ERV)
22 My brothers and sisters, I beg you to listen patiently to what I have said. I wrote this letter to strengthen you. And it is not very long. 23 I want you to know that our brother Timothy is out of prison. If he comes to me soon, we will both come to see you.

Blessings and Love

The verses are speaking of this life. The repercussions for falling back into a life of sin.

As they say, if you run with dogs you'll get fleas.

 

[GodsGrace101]

So you ask for forgiveness for what reason? I can think of two. 1: To have that sin covered by Christ blood. 2: to restore "fellowship" with God.

You ask forgiveness because that's what Jesus said to do. Confirmed by His apostle, John.
You're already covered by the blood...aren't you the one that believes this?
John 13:8-10

And because you should feel sorry for hurting God.

 

[Grip Docility]

I agree that Jesus is all-sufficient.
I believe our sin is to disobey God.
Living in disobedience will cost us.
I think someone in the ark could demand to be let out.

I agree with the rest of what you posted.

I appreciate your taking the time to clarify your convictions on the matter.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you.

 

[bcbsr]

Yes, you have described the basic flaw in the Protestant approach to salvation, namely the claim that someone still alive on Earth can be already "saved".

And what is your point about Catholic teaching on salvation?

The point is that Catholicism, along with other Neo-Circumcision sects, advocate a soteriology which is incompatible and irreconcilable with how many of us Christians view the gospel. The two categories of belief are clearly distinct from one another as much as much as the dichotomy of viewpoints Paul deals with in Romans 10 and Galatians and so forth concerning salvation.

While advocating justification by faith apart from works, Catholicism views final salvation as contingent upon works, and thus advocates salvation by works. In fact even the term "justification" is misconstrued in Catholicism to mean simply the God puts you in the starting gate on the road to salvation, the outcome being dependent upon you, your works. And even your rhetoric denying that believers are already saved is to us a rejection of the gospel, despite Jesus saying, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." and despite Paul saying, "it is by grace you have been saved" and despite John saying, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

 

[Acts2:38]

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

I really don't see that there are "two salvation's". Scripture only refers to salvation, singular.

The problem here is that people think:
1- they can believe by just saying they do and not doing anything else

and/or

2- saying they believe by mouth, maybe they evangelize or do other things, yet they don't follow (obedience) the other commands laid out in scripture, thus picking and choosing what they will do or not do that scripture tells them they should or shouldn't.

Those people that believe in "faith only" usually fall under the "once saved always saved" saved" group of people as it kinda goes hand in hand with each other.

Problem with that belief, is that it flies in the face of scripture that in plain and simple context, says otherwise.

Take Revelation 2 and 3. It is explicitly commands churches (people who are already saved in Christ) to stop certain transgressions or they will lose their candlestick UNLESS they repent, so on and so forth. It is so clearly written that one can lose salvation.

And no one can say "Oh, they were never saved to begin with then". Because He is clearly talking to Christians as it is written to "the seven churches", and naming all the things He accepts of them like "I know thy works and labor...." then He names the things that will condemn them "unless they repent". These people are unmistakably Christians in a saved state should they heed Christs warnings to them.

If that wasn't enough, the epistles clearly write to each different church and their transgression problems such as in Galatians. The context is so blunt/frank, one would have to be blind not to see the contrast of someone continuing in sin thus losing salvation or repenting and coming to obedience of the gospel commands.

The Corinthians also faced Paul's correction.

The author of Hebrews is correcting people. These are saved people, in the church, being told that should they continue down that path, they will lose it all.

James works hand in hand with the writer of Hebrews, when you compare James 2 and Hebrews 11. Belief is a work yes, but so is confession. No one denies that confession is necessary. Yet when it comes to baptism, people get all twisted up. It is just as necessary as belief, confession, and repentance for salvation.

Long story short, it's unmistakable that those who "obey not the gospel" are just a condemned as "those who know not" 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.

It's unmistakable that believers, can lose their position in the book of life (see Revelation example in chapter 2-3) should they not obey and keep straight their Christian walk.

 

[-57]

They were never saved to begin with is not what Jesus taught.

HE taught that we could be saved FOR A WHILE and then fall from our faith.
Luke 8:13

But these have no root;

John 2:23 can shed more light on it.

23 While He was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the signs He was doing and believed in His name. 24 But Jesus did not entrust Himself to them, for He knew all men.

These people saw the signs and believed. Maybe they were even joyous. But Jesus did not entrust Himself to them. Jesus knew they had no roots.

Paul taught the same.
How do you explain
2 Timothy 4:1 ?

Only some modern day churches teach that a person was never saved to begin with.
How do you know for sure that you are saved? What are the signs? Do y ou believe it will be like this forever?

Only some? No, many modern day churches teach that.

Hear, hear start at 16:00

 

[-57]

Take Revelation 2 and 3. It is explicitly commands churches (people who are already saved in Christ) to stop certain transgressions or they will lose their candlestick UNLESS they repent, so on and so forth. It is so clearly written that one can lose salvation.

Do you have a chapter and verse for this? Perhaps my translation uses a different word for candlestick.

 

[-57]

You ask forgiveness because that's what Jesus said to do. Confirmed by His apostle, John.
You're already covered by the blood...aren't you the one that believes this?
John 13:8-10

And because you should feel sorry for hurting God.

The second forgiveness is for after you have been saved. It's nt a forgiveness towards salvation.

 

[JacksBratt]

We're FREE TO SIN???

Are we reading the same bible?
My bible tells me that if I live a life of sin, I'm not saved.

Romans 12:2
John 14:15
John 15:6

No, salvation is not a license to sin...

Anyone who is truly saved... would not be simply pulling their salvation card out and going on a rampage.

The proof of salvation is in your works... Kindness, forgiving, selflessness, sympathetic, giving, serving character traits...

These are indicators of salvation...

Some people, however, have trouble with even the simplest of these things. So, judging someones condition of saved or not.... is not up to us.. only God knows the heart of each person.

When we are first saved... we are like baby Christians. Slowly, the old habits and desires should decrease and the new God like traits should increase..

 

[Concord1968]

Where did this notion creep in that a Christian, not an unbeliever but a CHRISTIAN, will only try and follow Christ's commands if they're under threat of eternal damnation?

 

[-57]

No, salvation is not a license to sin...

Anyone who is truly saved... would not be simply pulling their salvation card out and going on a rampage.

The proof of salvation is in your works... Kindness, forgiving, selflessness, sympathetic, giving, serving character traits...

These are indicators of salvation...

Some people, however, have trouble with even the simplest of these things. So, judging someones condition of saved or not.... is not up to us.. only God knows the heart of each person.

When we are first saved... we are like baby Christians. Slowly, the old habits and desires should decrease and the new God like traits should increase..

Agreed.

If someone is saying salvation is a license to sin...then they are preaching a false gospel.

When a non-OSAS says the proponents of OSAS are preaching salvation is a license to sin they are bearing a false witness.

 

[Soyeong]

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

The issue is that the Bible describes our salvation in the past, present, and future tenses, so our salvation is all-encompassing in that we have been saved from the penalty of our sins (Ephesians 2:8), we are being saving from continuing to live in sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9-10). In Titus 2:11-14, it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, which is essentially what God's Law was given to instruct us how to do. Furthermore, it says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so it describes both past and present aspects of our salvation.

Our salvation is not contingent upon our obedience to God's Law, but rather our salvation and our obedience to God's Law are both contingent upon the same faith. The same faith that upholds our justification also upholds our obedience to God's Law (Romans 3:31), so everyone who has been justified by faith will also be a doer of God's Law by the same faith, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only doers of the Law who will be justified.

 

[eleos1954]

Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?

Consider the thief on the cross. Was he saved? Yes. By works? By faith? By keeping Gods commandments? By grace? By the way he had lived his life?

How was he saved? By publicly acknowledging Jesus as Messiah, admitting he was a sinner and asking the Lord to save him .... "remember me when you come into your kingdom". His heart was softened and and the Lord bestowed His mercy and love upon Him thus completing His work in this person.

The Lord meets each of us where we are and when we receive Him, HIS work in a person changes their heart. This change can happen in a heart beat ... or it happens over our lifetime here on earth after we have received Him.

The thief on the cross is a reminder to us how quickly the Lord forgives a sincere heart.

About works ... there is nothing we can do within ourselves to be saved ... rather ... our works are a testament (evidence) that we have been saved.

and ... we know and He knows we will mess up here and there ... yet we are to persevere.

Philippians 1

Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ

Just as He did with the thief on the cross.

Philippians 3

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize of God’s heavenly calling in Christ Jesus.

15All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well. 16Nevertheless, we must live up to what we have already attained.

What knowledge one has about the Lord and His ways we are to walk in them.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Through God's words we gain an understanding that God is the one who gives the gift of knowledge- that is an understanding or awareness of something. The Lord however, grants knowledge to those who have an honest relationship with him.

1 John 5:3

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

John 14

15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Revelation 14

12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

and ... He will help us in our walk to keep them because He loves us.

The commandments are about love. Nothing legalistic about loving the Lord.

God is love.

 

[Loversofjesus_2018]

Your questions are not answerable.
I actually agree with your intent.
God knows our heart.
Jesus truly does save us....
particularly when we do not obey.

Does this make disobedience OK?

I don’t think it makes disobedience ok but it seems inevitable. Jesus said if you love him keep his commandments. He didn’t say some or most. He says keep his commandments. So even if we sin once after being saved we have failed because we didn’t keep his commandments. When I was young and my parents told me to do the dishes and I did them all except I decided to leave a couple pots and two plates then the dishes aren’t done. It doesn’t matter that the kitchen was a disaster and it looks much better I still didn’t finish the job. If I was doing the kitchen for a reward according to my works I do not deserve it because the kitchen isn’t clean. But my parents being merciful and loving me they would say we already bought your gift because we love you. You couldn’t earn this if you tried and if it was based off of your effort you would have failed anyway so be thankful it’s not based on that lol. Big kiss, big hugs and thankfulness all around. Hope that makes a little bit of sense. I didn’t reread for errors lol

 

[bcbsr]

Greetings Brothers and Sisters...

Well, when we read the letters to the Churches, they are filled with warnings about those who are not walking in the Spirit, but were either living carnally with a number of sin vices as listed. or were being influenced by false doctrine. You read the letters to the Corinthians, the Galatians, Hebrews, James, Peter... All of them have warnings.

So, possessing the Spirit does not guarantee your faithfulness or your salvation. The guarantee by God is that you are saved by reaming faithful, walking by the Spirit that dwells in you - to listen to and follow Jesus.

So the message to all Christians is to be careful lest we fall and fail to obtain the Promises of God to those who remain faithful to the end.

For those who are not afraid to read what the Scriptures say....

Hebrews 2:2-3 (NIV)
2 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation?

Hebrews 3:5-6
5 “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

Hebrews 3:12-19 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Hebrews 4:10 (ERV) So everyone who enters God’s place of rest will also have rest from their own work just as God did. 11 So let us try as hard as we can to enter God’s place of rest. We must try hard so that none of us will be lost by following the example of those who refused to obey God.

Hebrews 6 (ERV)
6 So we should be finished with the beginning lessons about Christ. We should not have to keep going back to where we started. We began our new life by turning away from the evil we did in the past and by believing in God.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (ERV) After people have left the way of Christ, can you make them change their lives again? I am talking about people who once learned the truth, received God’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. They were blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world. But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone.

Hebrews 6:9 (ERV) Dear friends, I am not saying this because I think it is happening to you. We really expect that you will do better—that you will do the good things that will result in your salvation. 10 God is fair, and he will remember all the work you have done. He will remember that you showed your love to him by helping his people and that you continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to be willing and eager to show your love like that the rest of your life. Then you will be sure to get what you hope for. 12 We don’t want you to be lazy. We want you to be like those who, because of their faith and patience, will get what God has promised.

Hebrews 10:22 (ERV) So come near to God with a sincere heart, full of confidence because of our faith in Christ. 23 We must hold on to the hope we have, never hesitating to tell people about it. We can trust God to do what he promised.

Hebrews 10:26-31 (WEB)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:35-36 (ERV)
35 So don’t lose the courage that you had in the past. Your courage will be rewarded richly. 36 You must be patient. After you have done what God wants, you will get what he promised you.

Hebrews 12:12-13 (ERV)
12 You have become weak, so make yourselves strong again. 13 Live in the right way so that you will be saved and your weakness will not cause you to be lost.

Hebrews 12:14-17 (ERV)
14 Try to live in peace with everyone. And try to keep your lives free from sin. Anyone whose life is not holy will never see the Lord. 15 Be careful that no one fails to get God’s grace. Be careful that no one loses their faith and becomes like a bitter weed growing among you. Someone like that can ruin your whole group. 16 Be careful that no one commits sexual sin. And be careful that no one is like Esau and never thinks about God. As the oldest son, Esau would have inherited everything from his father. But he sold all that for a single meal. 17 You remember that after Esau did this, he wanted to get his father’s blessing. He wanted that blessing so much that he cried. But his father refused to give him the blessing, because Esau could find no way to change what he had done.

Hebrews 13:4-5 (ERV)
4 God will judge guilty those who commit sexual sins and adultery. 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money. And be satisfied with what you have.

Hebrews 13:22-23 (ERV)
22 My brothers and sisters, I beg you to listen patiently to what I have said. I wrote this letter to strengthen you. And it is not very long. 23 I want you to know that our brother Timothy is out of prison. If he comes to me soon, we will both come to see you.

Blessings and Love

So what you're saying is that a person's salvation status is indeterminate in the present, rather it's dependent upon his ongoing performance. So from how you interpret scriptures what set of rules, shall we say laws, must a person obey to be finally saved? Is such a "law" a collection of all the commands in the NT appending them with the phrase "in order to be saved". Do you include parts of the Law of Moses among the rules of such a law?

As for Hebrews how does the author know whether he's dealing with people who have already come to saving faith or whether some of them simply are on the road to salvation but haven't arrived yet? Notice in 1Thess 1:4 Paul says confidently "we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you" and Paul goes on to say how he knows they're among the chosen. This in contrast to the author of Hebrews regarding his attitude towards his audience. While there were apparently exceptions among them, they were people who weren't progressing as one would expect of children of God, but had to be retaught the fundamentals. "We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!" That which doesn't grow is not alive. Thus he's treating much of his audience as if they have not yet been saved.

Verses like Heb 3:6 and Heb 3:14, which you mention, actually advocate the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints just as 1John 2:19 does, "if they had been of us they would have remained with us". Notice the tense used in Heb 3:6 "We are (present tense) his house if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory." So the logic goes something in the present is true only if something in the future is true. If a person doesn't hold firmly to such confidence then he was never really part of his house to begin with. Just like with 1John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us." Likewise with Heb 3:14 "We have come to share (Perfect Tense) in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." How can a past event be true only if a future event occurs? Again it's the Perseverance of the Saints. If a person doesn't persevere in their faith (confidence) it means that they had never come to share in Christ to begin with.

Furthermore what do these verses advocate a person persevere in? In their confidence. But in what? Those of us who believe the gospel put our confidence, our trust in God, who is reliable to do what he promised. Salvation by works Christians believe their salvation is dependent upon themselves, so what confidence they have is in themselves, which is why they can't be confidence of the outcome. Basically they don't even have the confidence of faith to begin with, let alone persevere in.

Heb 4:10 "for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his." tells us to rest from working for our salvation, as is also written in Romans 4:5 "to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Salvation by works Christians fail to enter into his rest.

Heb 6:4, I'll leave that up to Kenneth Wuest (A Translator of the NASB)
Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, (NIV)

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (AV)

"Partakers of the Holy Ghost"
We must be careful to note that the Greek word translated "partakers" does not mean "possessors," in the sense that these Hebrews possessed the Holy Spirit as an indwelling Person who had come to take up His permanent abode in their hearts. The word is a compound of the Greek verb "to have or hold", and a preposition meaning "with" thus "to hold with." It is used in Luke 5:7 where it is translated "partners," signifying one who co-operates with another in a common task or undertaking. It is used in Hebrews 1:9 where the angels are "fellows" of our Lord, partners or associates with Him in the work of salvation. It is used in Hebrews 3:1 where the recipients of this letter are called participators in the heavenly calling. That is, they participated together in the heavenly calling. These Hebrews had left the earthly calling of the nation Israel, and had identified themselves with the Church which has a heavenly calling. It is used in Hebrews 3:14, where it speaks of those who participate together in the Lord Jesus.

The word (metochos) was so used in secular Greek. Moulton and Milligan give examples of its usage in the following phrases: "We, Dionysius son of Socrates and the associate collectors;" Pikos son of Pamonthes and his colleagues," "the Joint-owner of a holding," "I am unable to take part in the cultivation," "Some do so because they are partners in their misdeeds." Thus the word signifies one who participates with another in a common activity or possession. It is so used here. These Hebrews became participators in the Holy Spirit insofar as an unsaved person can do so, namely, in the sense that they willingly co-operated with Him in receiving His pre-salvation ministry, that of leading them on step by step toward the act of faith. He had led them into the act of repentance. The next step would be that of faith. Here they were in danger of turning their backs upon the Spirit and returning to the sacrifices. Peter in his first epistle (1:2) in the words, "through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience," speaks of this work of the Holy Spirit on the unsaved, setting them apart from unbelief to faith. This word in its context does not at all imply that these Hebrews had been born of the Spirit, sealed with the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, anointed with the Spirit, baptized by the Spirit into the Body of Christ, or filled with the Spirit. This work of the Holy Spirit in leading them on towards faith was a once-for-all work, so thoroughly done that it needed never to be repeated. However, there was nothing permanent of itself in this work, for the work was only a means to an end. This is shown by the aorist participle used, referring to the mere fact, not a perfect, speaking of a finished act having present results. The fact that the writer did not use the perfect tense here, which is a specialized tense, but rather the aorist, which is the maid of all work, points to the incompleteness of the work of the Spirit in the case of these Hebrews. So far as the work had been done, it was perfect, thorough. But it would not be complete until the Hebrews accepted the proffered faith from the Spirit. The incompleteness of the work would be due, therefore, not to the Spirit, but to their willingness to go on as a partner or cooperator with the Spirit.

Heb 10:35-39 "So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him. But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved."

Who is he talking to when he says, "we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved."? Notice he speaks confidently that these particular people are saved and will not "shrink back and be destroyed". Apparently they have Eternal Security. It's because he's talking about the real believers among his audience. To the other are given warnings of uncertainty as you pointed out, but not to these. Notice also he speaks of "richly rewarded". Eternal life is not a reward that one earns (contrary to the misconception of salvation by works Christians) In accordance with Jesus' promise in John 5:24 true believers are not subject to the heaven/hell judgement. But there is a judgement for rewards.

And for the rest of the verses you're simply reading salvation by works into them rather then believing the gospel of grace.