Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

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GodsGrace101

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I don't think I could lose my free will if I tried! :D
But, I also know that you wouldn't depart from Him.

When I see people hammering away at salvational assurance, I bring up the parable of the seed sewer.

I'll replace it with the Ark. The Ark door stands open, and all us animals ( :p ) can climb on aboard and find our way to our quarters. God gives us time to look around and see if we agree with His provisions. Some animals think it's better outside the Ark and head back out. Some animals like the provisions and ask God to close the stable door, lock it and throw away the key, because they instinctively know they get stupid and want to make sure they don't get swept away in the flood.

However, what's extra stupid is when some of the Animals see how good the provisions are, and desire to show gratitude to the ARK BUILDER, by going back outside and attempting to swim for the duration of the flood.

Now I know that the analogy isn't accurate to what happened on the Ark, but it is accurate to what happens between "initial gospel belief" and "Being grasped by the Father, through Jesus".

Godsgrace101,

I know fo sure you have asked God to lock your stable door and throw away the key, just like I have.

Am I wrong? :)
You're sweet.
Yes, Ive entered the ark and the key has been thrown away.

How do I know?
Because I've been a Christian a really long time and have gone through much tribulation and I've never abandoned God.

But does this mean that there are none that do?
Doesn't the N.T. tell us to hold fast, to not fall away, to preserve the faith? How do YOU explain those passages? (for instance 2 peter 2:20-22)

BTW, your analogy was very good.
 
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GodsGrace101

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How much obedience is required? Considering me as well as other with faith in Christ are not always obedient.

How much obediance is required? Can you, do you love the Lord with all of your heart? All of yoyr mind? All of your strength? I mean ALL?

I trust God will keep me saved even when i screw up.


How much of the commandments must we keep? 100% ??? 90%???
Your questions are not answerable.
I actually agree with your intent.
God knows our heart.
Jesus truly does save us....
particularly when we do not obey.

Does this make disobedience OK?
 
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-57

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The New Covenant will save us IF WE STAY IN IT.

If we decide to depart from it, it will no longer cover us.

Do you think we've lost our free will after becoming saved?
Everytime we sin...we don't stay in it.

What happens if you sin..then die...before asking for forgiveness? Do you have a verse for that?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Everytime we sin...we don't stay in it.

What happens if you sin..then die...before asking for forgiveness? Do you have a verse for that?
I'm not talking about sinning...we all sin.

I'm talking about ignoring Jesus and returning to a LIFE OF SIN.

Even John spoke to this:
1 John 1:8-10
1 John 3:9 states that no one that is born again PRACTICES SIN (lives in sin).

This clearly means that if one is LIVING IN SIN...he cannot be born again.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Everytime we sin...we don't stay in it.

What happens if you sin..then die...before asking for forgiveness? Do you have a verse for that?
P.S.
Just to clarify,
If you're in the New Covenant and you sin, you ask forgiveness, as John stated, and continue. You don't get kicked out of the New Covenant for sinning.
 
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-57

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Your questions are not answerable.
I actually agree with your intent.
God knows our heart.
Jesus truly does save us....
particularly when we do not obey.

Does this make disobedience OK?
My questions need to be answerable for your theology to make sense.

I understand what I do, my intentions will be judged in the "fire' and what remains will be rewarded. If i do little I will suffer great loss...but will be saved.

1 Cor 3:12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 his workmanship will be evident, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will prove the quality of each man’s work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as if through the flames.
 
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Grip Docility

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You're sweet.
Yes, Ive entered the ark and the key has been thrown away.

How do I know?
Because I've been a Christian a really long time and have gone through much tribulation and I've never abandoned God.

But does this mean that there are none that do?
Doesn't the N.T. tell us to hold fast, to not fall away, to preserve the faith? How do YOU explain those passages? (for instance 2 peter 2:20-22)

BTW, your analogy was very good.

The saved are the animals that trust the Father to lock the stable door and throw away the key. The damned are those that hate that the Ark builder lets Animals on the Ark.

The mentality that thinks there is no Ark will become Ark believers at the final day of the Lord, or join the crew that hates that the Ark builder lets Animals on the Ark.

The mentality that thinks they can swim for 40 days and 40 nights just might get a chance to sink like Peter (walking on water) into the events of the last day, and cry out to Jesus for help at the last possible moment.

As for 2 Peter 2:2 ; 2 peter 2:20-22 and the like ... Christologically, it must use Trinitarian wisdom to discern.

The Son is in the Father... thus the Head of the Son is God, and He is God.

We are in the Son... thus our Head is the Son, and He is our God.

The Son stayed in the Father by perfectly surrendering to the Father's will. Something we cannot do. His sin would have been to deviate from His Father's will.

We stay in the Son, by "Believing" the Work of the Son is sufficient to save us. That's the easy yoke that yields everlasting Water of Faith, Hope and Love (Ephesians 1:13 ; Romans 8:9)... that flows within us, and even out of us towards all humanity. Our sin would be to DisBelieve the Son's sufficiency to save us.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you.

Thank you!
 
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Grip Docility

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I'm not talking about sinning...we all sin.

I'm talking about ignoring Jesus and returning to a LIFE OF SIN.

Even John spoke to this:
1 John 1:8-10
1 John 3:9 states that no one that is born again PRACTICES SIN (lives in sin).

This clearly means that if one is LIVING IN SIN...he cannot be born again.

Living in sin is to live in "Unbelief".

"Woman, where are your accusers?"
"There are none"
"Then I accuse you neither, go and SIN (UNBELIEVE) no more."

John 16:9-11 9 The world’s sin is unbelief in me; 10 there is righteousness available because I go to the Father and you shall see me no more; 11 there is deliverance from judgment because the prince of this world has already been judged.

Because Jesus was judged by the Father, after His Death on the Cross, as Innocent of the devil's accusations... we know that the tense of "has already been judged", is referring to satan.

John left this bread crumb to Spiritually discern what sin is, post New Covenant.
 
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-57

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I'm not talking about sinning...we all sin.

I'm talking about ignoring Jesus and returning to a LIFE OF SIN.

Even John spoke to this:
1 John 1:8-10
1 John 3:9 states that no one that is born again PRACTICES SIN (lives in sin).

This clearly means that if one is LIVING IN SIN...he cannot be born again.

It's been shown that if someone "returned to a life of sin" they were never saved to begin with OR they suffered a tragedy of faith. Considering that the tragedy can't snatch you from Jesus' hand or remove you from Gods love that person will remain chosen and saved.
 
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-57

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P.S.
Just to clarify,
If you're in the New Covenant and you sin, you ask forgiveness, as John stated, and continue. You don't get kicked out of the New Covenant for sinning.

So you ask for forgiveness for what reason? I can think of two. 1: To have that sin covered by Christ blood. 2: to restore "fellowship" with God.
 
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-57

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The mentality that thinks there is no Ark will become Ark believers at the final day of the Lord, or join the crew that hates that the Ark builder lets Animals on the Ark.

I know what you're saying, but, they will not join the crew that hates that the Ark builder...as they are already members of the crew that hates the Ark builder.
 
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nolidad

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Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?


Well I will give what Scripture says!

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:36 King James Version (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 6:28-29 King James Version (KJV)
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Romans 10:9-11 King James Version (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Ephesians 1:4-5 King James Version (KJV)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Our final salvation was secured before the universe was even created!

Works that we do that are acceptable to God (aka "good works") are the result of our being saved, not to be saved or to maintain our salvation!

We are new creatures, we have al;ready passed from death to life, we have been once for all time translated outr of the kingdom of darkenss into the Kingdom of HIs love, we are already seated in heavenly places, we are already justified and glorified, and we are already perfected.

Romans 8:30-32 King James Version (KJV)
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Romans 5:6-10 King James Version (KJV)
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 
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Grip Docility

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I know what you're saying, but, they will not join the crew that hates that the Ark builder...as they are already members of the crew that hates the Ark builder.

Hello 57,

I understand what you are saying. I will put it this way. IMO, Jesus entered Sheol and ended up leading many of those captives, captive, through His DBR and ministry to the dead. (2 Peter 3:18 ; 1 Peter 3:18-19)
This happened in the Spiritual Realm.

At the final day of the Lord, which will happen in the Physical Realm, Jesus will empty Sheol, and offer one last "sermon" (Tongue in Cheek humor).

This will balance the Justice and Mercy. All will have had an opportunity to hear the One True Gospel, from the Gospel Testator.

This is my opinion, and I appreciate your perspective. I do have deep biblical evidence to back my perspective, but I do not claim to be infallible.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you
 
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d taylor

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This verse should answer the question.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (that is not a future passing from death to life, at the moment a person believes they pass from death to life)

But being sinful people we love to say we believe the Bible but actually, we only believe it when we make fit our ideas. Salvation is faith plus work or work plus faith or there is two salvation's or we must live a life of repentance and obedience, you have to be baptized, you have to invite Jesus into your heart, say a prayer for salvation, etc....
 
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-57

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Hello 57,

I understand what you are saying. I will put it this way. IMO, Jesus entered Sheol and ended up leading many of those captives, captive, through His DBR and ministry to the dead. (2 Peter 3:18 ; 1 Peter 3:18-19)
This happened in the Spiritual Realm.

At the final day of the Lord, which will happen in the Physical Realm, Jesus will empty Sheol, and offer one last "sermon" (Tongue in Cheek humor).

This will balance the Justice and Mercy. All will have had an opportunity to hear the One True Gospel, from the Gospel Testator.

This is my opinion, and I appreciate your perspective. I do have deep biblical evidence to back my perspective, but I do not claim to be infallible.

All Love in Jesus Christ to you
Interesting concept.
Are you speculating that at the end of the "age" Jesus will enter into hell and give those souls the opportunity to receive him? Kinda like ...do you believe me now?
 
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Grip Docility

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Interesting concept.
Are you speculating that at the end of the "age" Jesus will enter into hell and give those souls the opportunity to receive him? Kinda like ...do you believe me now?

IMO,

Between Hell (The Lake of Fire)... and The start of "The Final Day of the Lord"... (Sheol) will be emptied. We know this emptying is for those dead, apart from Christ. It will most definitely be a "Do you BELIEVE Me now?"... kind of atmosphere.

In no way do I believe in "Universalism", as we see the very Sanhedrin seeing His Face, charging Him with Blasphemy, Spitting in His Face and Accosting Him. Shoot! Even Judas saw all that He did, including hearing the very Father speak from Heaven, on His behalf. Yet, Judas allowed the adversary to possess him and attempted to bind Him (Jesus).

Too bad for Judas he didn't understand Jesus was the Author of this song (figuratively speaking), sang by the man in black.

Bummer, I had to switch the video because Johnny was giving a special gesture of sign language to the grave and it's keeper. :D

In this way, but in a much more violent setting, the true Godless will manifest the very hatred of Jesus in literal, physical rebellion, of the mutiny sort.

It will end very badly for them.

Too bad for them, they don't understand what the man in black meant when he sang this song. :)

 
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Maria Billingsley

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Is Final Salvation Free or Contingent upon Obeying Commandments?

What is your view as to what one's final salvation is contingent upon?

I've noticed that some Christians will parse between two types of salvation. The first being "initial salvation" or they may refer to it as "justification" which they say is by faith alone apart from works, but for them that is just the start of the process of salvation culminating in "Final salvation" which involves works. They don't believe that if a person is initially "saved" by faith he will necessarily finally be saved. Salvation is not actually salvation if the person ends up in hell. So if salvation is not finalized upon coming to faith in Christ, it's not salvation. As such the only real "salvation" is final salvation.

But concerning Final Salvation, take Catholicism. According to the Catholic Catechism it says under the topic "Final Salvation"

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Ten Commandments
The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.

In fact what the Catholics refer to as "Commandments" go beyond the 10 Commandments as they add a plethora of commandments like if you wear a condom you're guilty of a mortal sin. Can't find that in the 10 Commandments. Likewise there are other Christians of non-Catholic sects who will have their own plethora of commands they insist we have to comply with in order to be finally saved. I've debated with many of them on these forums. Like they'll create a new law by cherry picking the "moral" law of Moses and insist one must keep that new law to be saved. Or likewise others will concatenate all the New Testaments commands together and append to each one the phrase "in order to be saved".

As I see it that's the same concept of justification by law Paul contrasted with justification by faith apart from law. But they'll say that Paul was just referring to a particular set of commands and not to other sets of derivative commands. It's a different gospel as it see it. But what do you think? What is your view of Final Salvation?
Well, using Catholicism may not be a the best example of works salvation as this is foundational in their faith rather than nuanced. There are several denominations outside of this institution that teach a form of works salvation. I believe we are saved by faith alone and by our works we show the fruit of that salvation.
Blessings
 
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setst777

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Here's how it works. Jesus paid for all of my sins, past, present, and future. And just as in America you cannot be punished twice for the same crime, as a Christian, I cannot be punished for any sin no matter how serious. But, in view of that, God gave me a brand new nature that loves him and hates sin. So even if free to sin, It repulses me and I love the fullness of the Spirit that comes from holiness more than anything else. So I live in harmony with the Commandments according to my new nature.

Greetings Brothers and Sisters...

Well, when we read the letters to the Churches, they are filled with warnings about those who are not walking in the Spirit, but were either living carnally with a number of sin vices as listed. or were being influenced by false doctrine. You read the letters to the Corinthians, the Galatians, Hebrews, James, Peter... All of them have warnings.

So, possessing the Spirit does not guarantee your faithfulness or your salvation. The guarantee by God is that you are saved by reaming faithful, walking by the Spirit that dwells in you - to listen to and follow Jesus.

So the message to all Christians is to be careful lest we fall and fail to obtain the Promises of God to those who remain faithful to the end.

For those who are not afraid to read what the Scriptures say....

Hebrews 2:2-3 (NIV)
2 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation?

Hebrews 3:5-6
5 “Moses was faithful as a servant in all God’s house,” bearing witness to what would be spoken by God in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

Hebrews 3:12-19 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Hebrews 4:10 (ERV) So everyone who enters God’s place of rest will also have rest from their own work just as God did. 11 So let us try as hard as we can to enter God’s place of rest. We must try hard so that none of us will be lost by following the example of those who refused to obey God.

Hebrews 6 (ERV)
6 So we should be finished with the beginning lessons about Christ. We should not have to keep going back to where we started. We began our new life by turning away from the evil we did in the past and by believing in God.

Hebrews 6:4-6 (ERV) After people have left the way of Christ, can you make them change their lives again? I am talking about people who once learned the truth, received God’s gift, and shared in the Holy Spirit. They were blessed to hear God’s good message and see the great power of his new world. But then they left it all behind, and it is not possible to make them change again. That’s because those who leave Christ are nailing him to the cross again, shaming him before everyone.

Hebrews 6:9 (ERV) Dear friends, I am not saying this because I think it is happening to you. We really expect that you will do better—that you will do the good things that will result in your salvation. 10 God is fair, and he will remember all the work you have done. He will remember that you showed your love to him by helping his people and that you continue to help them. 11 We want each of you to be willing and eager to show your love like that the rest of your life. Then you will be sure to get what you hope for. 12 We don’t want you to be lazy. We want you to be like those who, because of their faith and patience, will get what God has promised.

Hebrews 10:22 (ERV) So come near to God with a sincere heart, full of confidence because of our faith in Christ. 23 We must hold on to the hope we have, never hesitating to tell people about it. We can trust God to do what he promised.

Hebrews 10:26-31 (WEB)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me,” says the Lord, “I will repay.” Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 10:35-36 (ERV)
35 So don’t lose the courage that you had in the past. Your courage will be rewarded richly. 36 You must be patient. After you have done what God wants, you will get what he promised you.

Hebrews 12:12-13 (ERV)
12 You have become weak, so make yourselves strong again. 13 Live in the right way so that you will be saved and your weakness will not cause you to be lost.

Hebrews 12:14-17 (ERV)
14 Try to live in peace with everyone. And try to keep your lives free from sin. Anyone whose life is not holy will never see the Lord. 15 Be careful that no one fails to get God’s grace. Be careful that no one loses their faith and becomes like a bitter weed growing among you. Someone like that can ruin your whole group. 16 Be careful that no one commits sexual sin. And be careful that no one is like Esau and never thinks about God. As the oldest son, Esau would have inherited everything from his father. But he sold all that for a single meal. 17 You remember that after Esau did this, he wanted to get his father’s blessing. He wanted that blessing so much that he cried. But his father refused to give him the blessing, because Esau could find no way to change what he had done.

Hebrews 13:4-5 (ERV)
4 God will judge guilty those who commit sexual sins and adultery. 5 Keep your lives free from the love of money. And be satisfied with what you have.

Hebrews 13:22-23 (ERV)
22 My brothers and sisters, I beg you to listen patiently to what I have said. I wrote this letter to strengthen you. And it is not very long. 23 I want you to know that our brother Timothy is out of prison. If he comes to me soon, we will both come to see you.

Blessings and Love
 
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Danthemailman

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Jul 18, 2017
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Lord, to whom shall we go?

Of course.
But I also know that I have to obey Him.

John 14:15
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


Jesus said we must keep His commandments IF we love Him...not me.
To “keep” Greek word - “tereo” (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments is the demonstrative evidence of our love for Jesus, but not the meritorious means by which we obtain eternal life. The translation you quoted says, “IF you love Me, you WILL keep My commandments. So it’s not about must or else, but WILL.
 
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