Is faith a responsibility or a gift?

[Clare73]

I am not saying: “All mature adults have a “faith” in God or are “faithful” to God.

We are not like animals who are instinctively loyal, but can turn to idol worship, self-trusting (worshipping self), and place our “trust” (faith) in lots of things and people.

This faith (general faith) all mature adults have been gifted with by God and just need to turn it toward God.

And that natural faith which you describe is not saving faith, and is counted for no more than unbelief is counted.

 

[bling]

And that natural faith which you describe is not saving faith, and is counted for no more than unbelief is counted.

Faith is faith, but what you direct the faith you have towards will determine your loss or salvation.

 

[Clare73]

Faith is faith, but what you direct the faith you have towards will determine your loss or salvation.

So the correct terminology is that saving faith is faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ,
and that is not, as you describe, a generic faith "directed toward" Jesus Christ,
for faith in Jesus Christ is only by the power of the Holy Spirit, as
"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

 

[timothyu]

"No one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." (John 6:65)

'Seeing the light' so to speak, is a gift, yes, but then comes a choice and we chose to have faith either in the ways of man or the ways of the Kingdom. There can be only one for we cannot serve both.

 

[Clare73]

'Seeing the light' so to speak, is a gift, yes, but then comes a choice and we chose to have faith either in the ways of man or the ways of the Kingdom. There can be only one for we cannot serve both.

That is not what is taught in the NT.

It's not about faith in "the ways of the Kingdom," it's about faith in the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," declared righteousness by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ by that faith in him (Romans 5:18-19), as Abraham's righteousness from God (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22) was imputed to him by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3) in the Promise (Jesus Christ, Genesis 15:4).

 

[timothyu]

It's not about faith in "the ways of the Kingdom," it's about faith in the person and atoning work (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice;

That is part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, a Kingdom we would not have had He not died and risen.

 

[Clare73]

That is part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, a Kingdom we would not have had He not died and risen.

There is only one gospel in the NT, phrased in a dozen minorly-different ways, which is not a license to claim more than one gospel.

That is outright NT heresy, the progeny of ignorance regarding NT teaching.

 

[timothyu]

There is only one gospel in the NT,

Yes and Jesus said approx. 70 times it was the Gospel of the Kingdom.
EG:
Matthew 24: 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Luke 16: 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 4: 43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

Mark 1: 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 4: 23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom...

Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

etc.

 

[Clare73]

Yes and Jesus said approx. 70 times it was the Gospel of the Kingdom.
EG:
Matthew 24: 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Luke 16: 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 4: 43 And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.

Mark 1: 14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Matthew 4: 23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom...

Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

etc.

Yes, we are in the kingdom now, where Jesus reigns and rules now (Ephesians 1:20-23) and
we are reigning with him now (Ephesians 2:6).
His kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36),
he refused the earthly kingdom offered him (John 6:15)
his kingdom is spiritual-- invisible and within (Luke 17:20-21) the hearts of those where he reigns and rules.

 

[Clare73]

That is part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, a Kingdom we would not have had He not died and risen.

It's not the gospel you presented as the gospel of the kingdom.

 

[timothyu]

He did His part to bring it about but we must still choose whether to live by it's terms. Allegiance is required of us now to His will over our own will, His governance over man's governance.
The good news about the Kingdom was simply that God and not man would govern over us once again.

 

[VCO]

GENUINE FAITH is an absolute GIFT. If it was a RESPONSIBILITY, it would be works righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

WHEN WERE YOU SAVED, and WHEN DID YOU RECEIVED THE GIFT?

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

WHEN DID WE RECEIVE THE GENUINE GIFT?

Romans 10:8-11 (HCSB)
8 On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near you, in your mouth and
in your heart. This is the message of faith that we proclaim:
9 If you confess [not merely Profess it] with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
11 Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame,

I was one for almost 29 years that thought I was a Christian, because of my infant baptism and because I took up space on pew regularly, and occasionally PROFESSED Jesus is Lord, and day dreamed through every sermon. But genuine faith, is in the HEART, and all I had was head knowledge about Jesus. I went through a nasty divorce after 6 months of marriage, and attempted suicide 3 times in a week, and what stopped me was I KNEW I WAS GOING TO GO TO HADES/HELL, if I did it. I had never really Confessed JESUS IS MY PERSONAL LORD, a one hour so-called Christian, and the rest of the week I lived like the Devil himself.

The night after my third attempt at suicide, wave after wave of guilt washed over me, when the Holy Spirit came into my heart, and I saw myself as a great sinner. I was crying like a baby for hours.

 

[Clare73]

He did His part to bring it about but we must still choose whether to live by it's terms. Allegiance is required of us now to His will over our own will, His governance over man's governance.
The good news about the Kingdom was simply that God and not man would govern over us once again.

WRONG!

The gospel is the good news of salvation from the condemnation of all mankind (Romans 5:18)
by faith in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ
for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," and
declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:18-19),
as God's righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3; Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22).

YOURS IS NOT ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY, IT IS HERESY.

 

[timothyu]

The gospel is the good news of salvation from the condemnation of all mankind

Of course. Our ways are contrary to the ways of God and His governance/Kingdom. Luke 16:15, James 4:4 Jesus told us to repent of that attitude and return to the governance of God in heart and mind rather than continue on in the self indulgence of our ways, thus reversing the choice Eve made. Jesus said of the Father, His Kingdom would come and His will would be done in earth as it is in Heaven. That was His Good News. The oppressed who were the slaves, servants and women of the day flocked to the message.

There will be no place for those who insist on carrying on living and supporting the self serving ways of mankind. Woe to the divisive among mankind rather than between the ways of the world of man and of God. All that we know which is built upon that human premise, from politics to religion (all of which are governments of man) will disappear as man no longer seeks to impose our will over fellow man, and especially God's Kingdom. Jesus opened the door but only those who reject the ways of mankind for the ways of the Kingdom will pass through the narrow gate. There is no other way in. Forgiveness is there, but only comes to those who repent of the traditional self serving ways on mankind which causes pain and oppression, and instead willingly serve each other in need daily as God intended. Just as nations don't expect migrants to continue thinking in the ways of their home countries when they come, neither will any ways of man be tolerated in the Kingdom of God. I am sorry for those who think we can have it both ways.

 

[fhansen]

WRONG!

The gospel is the good news of salvation from the condemnation of all mankind (Romans 5:18)
by faith in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ
for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," and
declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ (Romans 5:18-19),
as God's righteousness was imputed to Abraham by faith (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3; Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22).

YOURS IS NOT ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY, IT IS HERESY.

CLARE!

You're at it again. Rom 5:18-19:
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

Through Adam's act of disobedience sin entered the world-and all men truly became sinners; all men became unrighteous. And through Jesus all men can become righteous again, as they were created to be, not sinful but obedient. That's what removes our condemnation.
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1-4

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

The church all over the world, along with the ECFs, has always taught, from the beginning, that man must contribute his "yes" to God, he must choose to pick up his cross daily; man's will is involved however weakly that may be, especially at first. Man didn't sacrifice himself on the cross, God must make the overtures to us: grace comes from Him. But we can refuse that grace, that gift of faith, we can refuse to open the door when He comes knocking-and we can close it again later down the road if we so choose as well. We must remain in Him and He in us-and He'll always stay the course- as long as we're willing to keep walking with Him.

"YOURS IS NOT ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY, IT IS HERESY." Or sumpthin' like that.

 

[Clare73]

Of course. Our ways are contrary to the ways of God and His governance/Kingdom. Luke 16:15, James 4:4 Jesus told us to repent of that attitude and return to the governance of God in heart and mind rather than continue on in the self indulgence of our ways, thus reversing the choice Eve made. Jesus said of the Father, His Kingdom would come and His will would be done in earth as it is in Heaven. That was His Good News. The oppressed who were the slaves, servants and women of the day flocked to the message.

There will be no place for those who insist on carrying on living and supporting the self serving ways of mankind. Woe to the divisive among mankind rather than between the ways of the world of man and of God. All that we know which is built upon that human premise, from politics to religion (all of which are governments of man) will disappear as man no longer seeks to impose our will over fellow man, and especially God's Kingdom. Jesus opened the door but only those who reject the ways of mankind for the ways of the Kingdom will pass through the narrow gate. There is no other way in. Forgiveness is there, but only comes to those who repent of the traditional self serving ways on mankind which causes pain and oppression, and instead willingly serve each other in need daily as God intended. Just as nations don't expect migrants to continue thinking in the ways of their home countries when they come, neither will any ways of man be tolerated in the Kingdom of God. I am sorry for those who think we can have it both ways.

Non-responsive to my point and the Scriptures presented.

 

[Clare73]

CLARE!

You're at it again. Rom 5:18-19:
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous."

Through Adam's act of disobedience sin entered the world-and all men truly became sinners; all men became unrighteous. And through Jesus all men can become righteous again, as they were created to be, not sinful but obedient. That's what removes our condemnation.

Yeah, at it again in presenting the NT gospel, rather than the gospel of man.
And according to the NT:

Salvation is from condemnation to the wrath of God (Romans 5:9) on our sin.
Salvation is by faith, not by faith's works of righteousness. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Salvation is to
a) (receiving) the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ, in justification (Romans 5:18-19) by faith apart from works(Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28),
as God's righteousness (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21-22) was imputed to Abraham by faith (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6), and
b) sanctification leading to righteousness leading to holiness through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19).

That is the NT gospel.

 

[timothyu]

Non-responsive to my point and the Scriptures presented.

Totally responsive

 

[fhansen]

Salvation is from condemnation to the wrath of God (Romans 5:9) on our sin.

Rom 5:9
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"

Well, of course, if we're made just, as we turn to Him in faith, and live as one now justified, we won't be condemned. Would God condemn a righteous person? Again,
"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:1-4

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

 

[VCO]

GENUINE FAITH is an absolute GIFT. If it was a RESPONSIBILITY, it would be works righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

WHEN WERE YOU SAVED, and WHEN DID YOU RECEIVED THE GIFT?

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

WHEN DID WE RECEIVE THE GENUINE GIFT?

Romans 10:8-11 (HCSB)
8 On the contrary, what does it say? The message is near you, in your mouth and
in your heart. This is the message of faith that we proclaim:
9 If you confess [not merely Profess it] with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 One believes with the heart, resulting in righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, resulting in salvation.
11 Now the Scripture says, Everyone who believes on Him will not be put to shame,

I was one for almost 29 years that thought I was a Christian, because of my infant baptism and because I took up space on pew regularly, and occasionally PROFESSED Jesus is Lord, and day dreamed through every sermon. But genuine faith, is in the HEART, and all I had was head knowledge about Jesus. I went through a nasty divorce after 6 months of marriage, and attempted suicide 3 times in a week, and what stopped me was I KNEW I WAS GOING TO GO TO HADES/HELL, if I did it. I had never really Confessed JESUS IS MY PERSONAL LORD, a one hour so-called Christian, and the rest of the week I lived like the Devil himself.

The night after my third attempt at suicide, wave after wave of guilt washed over me, when the Holy Spirit came into my heart, and I saw myself as a great sinner. I was crying like a baby for hours.


That was a Complete Surrender to Jesus Christ, and I knew I would never take it back. Wow did HE ever use me, and my joy just soured.