• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Is faith a gift that only God can give us? (Note: I am not asking because I don't know).

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Bible Highlighter, Apr 21, 2021.

Is faith a gift that only God can give to us?

  1. Yes (Only God can give us the gift of faith).

    44.8%
  2. No (God already makes man with the capacity to excercise faith without any help from God).

    17.2%
  3. Other (Please explain)

    37.9%
  1. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

    +1,265
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    The thing is, I didn't say one should justify sin or that one should refuse to confess and forsake sin. That's something you are obsessively compulsively reading into what I say. It's apparently something that you feel you must keep preaching against, even when someone isn't saying that. Why is that, brother Jason? I think it's something that needs looking into.

    Now I'll answer your questions lest you complain that I'm ignoring them.

    All it takes is one sin for one to stand condemned. Any sin, no matter how minute. That's why we needed a savior to become the second Adam and undo what Adam did. 1 Corinthians 15:22, 1 Corinthians 15:45.

    I believe the most widely held consensus is that Ananias and Sapphira were false Christians. The sort talked about in 1 John 2:19. Do I think they went to hell? Who am I to make such a judgement?

    I think in the parable of the prodigal son, the father in the story represents God, perhaps specifically Jesus himself. I think it falls into conjunction with Matthew 18:12. I believe you think the parable is about going to hell, but I don't think that's what it's about.

    There you go, and I even used Bible verses. Are you happy with that? I somehow seriously doubt it lol.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  2. sawdust

    sawdust Well-Known Member

    +286
    Australia
    Christian
    Married
    Keeping in mind you were talking about atheists:
    they are not regenerated, they remain spiritually dead in their sin
    under condemnation still
    not filled with the Spirit
    not indwelt bodily by the Spirit
    have not received forgiveness
    have never been baptised in the Spirit
    are not children of God

    .. and that's just off the top of my head

    The psalmist was talking about the anointing of the Spirit which is the equivalent today of the filling of the Spirit. Both the psalmist and us can lose the filling but we never lose the indwelling for that is God's seal on us.

    Faith given supernaturally without the need to hear the Word.
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,073
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    You imply that it is not necessary because you said elsewhere in this post.

    “...a Christian going from being alive, to lost, to alive again - isn't a unique view, unless it's happened. Your everytime a born again Christian believer has a sinful thought he spiritually dies and loses his salvation, like God is constantly flipping a light switch, is apparently unique to you and Dan Corner.” Quote by: MMXX.

    Post #373 - Paul did not teach Belief Alone-ism for salvation.

    In post #230 in another thread, you said this, I quote:

    “If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us.

    Sounds like a one time deal at the time of conversion. No repetition is indicated. Not "every time we confess" or "if we keep confessing" or anything like that.”
    ~ Quote by: MMXX.
    So this suggests that you believe that the continual confession of sin is not necessary aspect of our salvation as per 1 John 1:9.

    Proverbs 28 says,

    “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper:
    but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.”
    (Proverbs 28:13).​

    You said, I quote in post #291 in another thread, I quote:

    “You've been saying that each time a saved person commits a mortal sin, they have lost their salvation, and will go to hell, until they confess their mortal sin.” ~ Quote by: MMXX.​

    This implies strongly that you can sin and still be saved. This is what the majority of Christians today believe, and yet it runs contrary to the teachings of Jesus and His followers.

    For Jesus says,

    “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that

    I have already shown to you before that this is false. Not all sin is the same according to the Bible For example: There is a “sin unto death,” and a “sin not unto death” (1 John 5:16-17). Jesus described to us the difference between a “sin unto death,” and “sins not unto death” in Matthew 5:22.

    “But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court; and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother, ‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.” (Matthew 5:22) (AMP).​

    The words in blue above are “sins not unto death,” because they are punishment in earthly courts. The words in red above is a “sin unto death” because it is punishment in hellfire in the afterlife.

    Well, you sometimes have to think like a detective of a crime scene and gather the clues when you sometimes look at certain scenes in Scripture to get all the facts.

    Acts of the Apostles 5:11 says,
    “And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.”​

    It says here in the above verse that a great fear came upon all the church. Now, think about that for a moment. If Ananias and Sapphira were false apostate believers, and the church knew that, they would not be afraid or in fear because these were simply false believers. If such was the case, they would feel either sad or they would feel a sense of justice being done by the Lord. If Ananias and Sapphira were saved, the rest of the body of believers would either feel sorrow in that they would miss their friends, or they would rejoice in that they are in the arms of Jesus now. But the emotion of fear? That only makes sense if the church knew that Ananias and Sapphira fell away from their salvation on account of their own sin, and they are afraid that something similiar could happen to them if they are not careful to guard themselves against such a grievous sin, as well.

    Except in the Parable of the Prodigal Son narrative: The father did not go out chasing after the son to bring him home while he left the rest of his family. Yes, Matthew 18:12 is also true, but it applies to a different prodigal believer who needs to come back to being faithful to the Lord again. But the parable of the prodigal son is clearly referring to salvation because it has the same theme of repentance among the other parables in Luke 15. It even uses the terms lost and found, and alive and dead (Which are terms used elsewhere in the Bible to suggest salvation and condemnation).

    Thank you. I am actually happy that you are using Bible verses instead of making it about me. It definitely is an improvement, and I appreciate it. Really, I do. Thank you. Granted, I do not agree or like with your seeking to change the Bible to fit your belief system, though. The Bible cannot be changed to fit what we want to be true or with a message that sounds more comforting that we want to hear. We have to accept even the parts of the Bible that are difficult to accept.

    Anyways, may God bless you
    (even if we do not agree on the topic of sin and salvation).
    Peace be unto you from the Lord.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  4. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

    +1,076
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    1 Corinthians 4:7
    7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?


    Romans 12:3
    3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.

    Galatians 5:22-24
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires


    Ephesians 2:8-9
    8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
    9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.


    Ephesians 6:23
    Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Philippians 1:29
    For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him

    2 Peter 1:1
    Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

    1 Timothy 1:14
    The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

    (faith is given out by God along with his grace)


    Acts 18:27 - When he arrived, he greatly helped those who through grace had believed

    (it is through God's grace that people believe)


    Acts. 13:48 As the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of God. As many as were appointed to eternal life, believed.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,073
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Ephesians 2:8 says GIFT (singular) and not GIFTS (plural). In Ephesians 2:8: The gift (singular) is referring to God's grace. For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten son... (John 3:16).

    Initial faith is not a gift forced upon a person because Jesus marveled at the Centurion's great faith. Why would Jesus marvel at what God the Father does? Is not Jesus one with the Father? Also, Jesus criticized others for having a lack of faith (like Peter failing to continue to walk on the water). Jesus appeared to be upset at those who did bad or evil things. If it was God's sovereign will to leave them be in remaining evil then God would never get upset in the Bible. But Psalms 7:11 says God is angry at the wicked every day. This again suggests that God requires something of man, and He does not gift them faith whereby they would be changed. So yeah. This kind of thinking is totally illogical. You would have to cut out whole swafs of Scripture in order to make this kind of belief true.
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,073
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because THEY received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT BE SAVED.

    Romans 11:20 says this:

    “Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:” (Romans 11:20).

    So God is placing the blame on the Jew for having unbelief.

    Anyways, the context of faith in Romans 12:3 is in relation to the gifts given during the early church.

    “Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.” (Romans 12:6-8).​

    For the early church was told to prophecy according to the proportion of the faith given to them by God at that time. Remember, God was still building New Testament canon of Scripture, and things needed to also be said to the Jews while prophesying, as well.

    Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” This does not sound like the responsibility is from God, but it rests on the shoulders of that particular church. In Matthew 25:21, Jesus says, “His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” Now, this verse would not make any sense if God forced faithfulness upon his own servant. The Lord appears to be congratulating the servant for his own faithfulness. Yes, faithfulness is one of the fruits of the Spirit, but we have to do our part in being faithful to God first. God can help us to abide in His righteous ways (faithfulness), but we have to do our part by faith in trusting in His grace, and in then being faithful ourselves. 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” Do you think God does this for a believer who thinks they can sin and still be saved or who justifies sin on some level? Does God do this for every believer who professes Christ as Savior? A believer first has to be faithful to God and then God can help to move more in their life to protect them from the works of the devil (i.e. sin) (See John 14:23).

    Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The early church received words from select apostles in the formation of New Testament Scripture. They received faith from the word by the apostles. The Word of God in context in Romans 10:17 is referring to the Living Word (Jesus). We get our faith by believing and obeying the words of Jesus. Receiving the apostles message is the same as receiving Jesus and His message (See: Matthew 10:40).

    I think the confusion on this verse lies in the use of translations still relying on the English from the 1600's. The 1600's English is not in error by any means. Opportunities in life can be given or granted to us, but that does not mean they are forced upon us.

    The NLT (New Living Translation) says it more clearly in this particular instance.

    “For you have been given not only the privilege of trusting in Christ but also the privilege of suffering for him.” (Philippians 1:29).

    This verse again is speaking merely of receiving of the faith by believing, and obeying the words of Jesus.

    Right, God talked to the apostle Paul directly. I believe that is why Paul was gone into Arabia for three years. He was learning what he needed to from the Lord in order to teach others. He was a direct minister of God. We are not. We have the Bible (the words of Jesus and the apostles) as our guide.

    Does the context support that conclusion? I bet it doesn't.

    The NLT says,
    “When he arrived there, he proved to be of great benefit to those who, by God’s grace, had believed.” (Acts of the Apostles 18:27) (NLT).

    The message of God's grace is the gospel message. So in this sense, by grace or through grace (the message of grace), they had believed. For if someone hears about the love of the Lord in what He had to suffer and go through for us, they hearing about God's grace, and through this grace message, they then can believe being moved by God's love.

    In fact, the context (verse 28) says:
    “For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.” (Acts of the Apostles 18:28).

    So this is the reason why they were turned to the Lord. He used the Scriptures to show Jesus was the Messiah, and to tell about the grace that comes from Him.

    I addressed this verse in this CF thread here:

    What does "...as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" mean in Acts 13:48?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  7. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

    +1,265
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Like you said yourself, hardly anyone interprets scripture the way you do. When I asked you if there were any theologians, scholars or teachers etc who did, at first you said there weren't any and then later on you come up with a couple of obscure people on the internet. So of course basically no one is going to agree with you on the topic of sin and salvation etc.

    Earlier in this thread you said "God knows my heart, my thoughts, and my intentions" and that's really what it comes down to. One can come up with all kinds of rituals and formulas regarding sin and salvation, but where the rubber meets the road, that's what it comes down to.

    When it comes to confession, you think only certain sins need to be confessed. So apparently according to you, if you steer clear of them, you're without sin. That's self-righteousness.

    The two greatest commandments that sum up all of the others are, to love God with all (100%) of your heart, soul, mind and strength and your neighbor as yourself - and everyone fails at that, on a daily basis.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2021
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,073
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    What do you think 2 Corinthians 7:1 says?
    What do you think 1 John 3:7 says?
    What do you think 1 John 3:10 says?


    Actually, the full version of the 1st greatest command is found in Mark 12:29-30.

    “And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.” (Mark 12:29-30).

    This is a five part instruction for the 1st greatest commandment. It is one command, but it has a five part way we can obey it.

    Part #1. Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord,
    Part #2. Love the Lord your God with all your heart,
    Part #3. Love the Lord your God with all your soul,
    Part #4. Love the Lord your God with all your mind,
    Part #5. Love the Lord your God with all your strength.

    What is interesting is that Deuteronomy 6, and Deuteronomy 10 does not mention Part #4 that says to love the Lord your God with all your mind. So this was an added improvement by our Lord in Mark 12:29-30.

    As for saying that the two greatest commandments sum up all of the other commands:
    What do you mean by this? Are you saying that we don't have to keep the other commands if we keep the greatest two? Yes, I am aware of Romans 13:8-10. I believe that loving one's neighbor fulfill the Old Law (i.e. the 613 Laws of Moses). But Paul is not referring to how loving your neighbor fulfills the New Law or the Law of Christ (i.e. the commands found in the New Testament).

    “...a certain priest named Zacharias,... and his wife... Elisabeth.”
    “...were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.” (Luke 1:5-6).

    “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
     
  9. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

    +1,265
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    What do you think Psalms 14:3 says?
    What do you think Isaiah 64:6 says?
    What do you think Romans 3:10-12 says?
    What do you think Romans 3:23 says?
    What do you think 1 John 1:8 says?

    Actually, I had Matthew 22:36-40 in mind. And I'm saying when we break the two greatest commandments, we have broken them all. Because all of the other commandments have to to with loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself. The sins we commit are a violation of one or both of those two commandments. I'm saying that your standard of being a sinner is actually lower than that of most true disciples because most of us believe that we sin all the time, no matter how well behaved we are. And all of those sins are a result of not loving God with all (100%) of our heart, mind, soul and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves.

    That means they were justified the same way as everyone else at the time who were justified. It doesn't mean they were without sin and didn't have to offer sacrifices. It mans they like everyone else who offered sacrifices were blameless.

    I don't think Jesus expected anyone to be able to do that, anymore then he expected anyone to be able to be as perfect as God. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

    We all fail at Matthew 22:36-40 the same as we all fail at Matthew 5:48. That's why self-righteousness through works and performance won't save us. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
  10. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,073
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    First, you did not explain 2 Corinthians 7:1.
    Please explain how it fits within your belief system.

    Second, Psalms 14:3 says, “They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.”

    Psalms 14:3 is in context to the fool who said in his heart there is no God (See: Psalms 14:1).
    At that time: This was the Gentile nations saying this.
    For Psalms 14:4 says, “Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.

    So who were God's people during that time?
    It was Israel. With the exception of Nineveh during another period of time, the Gentile nations did not call upon the LORD. When Israel rejected their Messiah (Jesus Christ), then salvation went out to the Gentiles (whereby they would accept Him) (See: Romans 11:11).

    Psalms 14:3 is repeated in Romans 3:12 to make a point about how salvation has now included the Gentiles. Thus, this is not proof that the Gentiles would not later be receptive to receiving the Lord whereby they could live holy for God. There are plenty of verses that teach that the believer can live a holy life in regards to their conduct in the New Covenant (See: 2 Corinthians 7:1, Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:10).

    Isaiah 64:6 says, “But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

    This was Israel lamenting in that they sinned, and in the same boat as the Gentile nations at that time (Isaiah 64:2). Just read the previous chapter (Isaiah 63). Also, Isaiah 64:5 says this:

    “Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness,
    those that remember thee in thy ways...” (Isaiah 64:5).

    So it says here that God meets those who rejoices, and works righteousness and those who remember His ways. 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous.
    1 John 3:10 says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.”
    1 John 3:15 says that whoever hates his brother is like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. So salvation is conditioned upon not hating your brother. Salvation is conditioned upon loving your brother and in doing righteousness. For we are to follow after holiness and peace with all men, without which no man shall see the Lord (See: Hebrews 12:14). For Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all those who obey Him (See: Hebrews 5:9).

    Romans 3 is dealing with initial acceptance of Christ or in how we are ultimately saved. For before Christ, we are all (both Jew and Gentile) under sin. For Romans 3:3 says this about the unbelieving Jew, “For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?” In addition, Romans 5:2 says, “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand,”. In other words, Paul is talking about initial salvation through faith in Christ (Being saved by God's grace) and he is not talking about Sanctification (Holy living by the Spirit) that follows. Second, if you take Romans 3:23 and Romans 3:10-12 as talking about faithful believers who live righteously in Christ, then you must also believe that faithful believers in Christ also have no understanding and that they do not seek after God, too.

    For Romans 3:11 says,

    "There is none that understandeth,
    there is none that seeketh after God."
    (Romans 3:11).​

    How in the world did Paul ever gain any understanding to preach to people?

    In other words, Romans 3 is referencing the unbelieving Gentiles or the fools who say there is no God in Psalms 14:1 (Compare Romans 3:10 and Psalms 14).

    What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Non-OSAS Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The sin and still be saved type believer's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the sin and still be saved type believer's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

    In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

    "If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
    we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
    (1 John 1:8 NET).​

    In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what Eternal Security, or the Non-OSAS sin and still be saved type belief proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their unrepentant present, and future sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

    John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

    You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,073
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    @MMXX

    On an added note to 1 John 1:8:

    Many Christians today falsely think unrepentant present and future sin is automatically forgiven them because of their belief on Jesus as their Savior.

    However, the Bible teaches that only past sins are forgiven us. This is why we must confess sin to be forgiven of sin (See: 1 John 1:9).

    (Note: Click on the following spoiler button to check out a more extensive list of verses).
    The Bible teaches only past sins are forgiven us (not future sins).

    Believers need to confess and
    forsake sin to continue to obtain forgiveness (or salvation).

    Here are the verses in the Bible that teach or imply that past sins only are forgiven:

    2 Peter 1:9 KJB
    “But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    2 Peter 1:9 BLB
    “For in whomever these things are not present, he is blind, being short sighted, having received forgetfulness of the purification from his former sins.”

    1 John 1:9 KJB
    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

    Acts of the Apostles 8:22 KJB
    Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.”

    Hebrews 10:26 KJB
    “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,”

    Proverbs 28:13 KJB
    He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.”

    Romans 6:22-23 KJB
    22 “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
    23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

    Romans 8:13 KJB
    For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

    1 Corinthians 6:9-11 KJB
    9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

    John 3:20 KJB
    “For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.”

    1 John 3:15 KJB
    Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”

    1 John 3:8 KJB
    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”

    Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11 KJB
    1 “But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
    2 And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
    3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
    4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
    5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
    6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
    7 And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
    8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
    9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
    10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
    11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.”

    Matthew 10:33 KJB
    “But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”

    Matthew 6:15 KJB
    “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

    Revelation 22:12-15 KJB
    12 “And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
    13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
    15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”

    In addition, many Christians today erroneously interpret 1 John 1:8 as a license to sin.
    But the Bible teaches that there are....

    Ways to overcome mortal sin by God's Word
    and with the help of Jesus:


    #1. Remove yourself from sinful environments.

    Remove yourself from sinful environments (if possible) and or get rid of things that cause you to sin. In Genesis: Joseph had literally ran away from the temptation of sexual sin (Genesis 39:11-12). One of the commands in the New Testament is: "Flee fornication." (1 Corinthians 6:18) (Note: Paul says that what he had written should be regarded as the commandments of the Lord - 1 Corinthians 14:37) (KJV). Sometimes this running away is merely a means of escape. God provides a way of escape for us to run to so that we can bear the temptation and get through it. For 1 Corinthians 10:13 says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

    #2. Pray to God so as not to be tempted.

    Pray to God so as not to be tempted. It is part of the Lord’s prayer for you to pray so as not to be tempted into sin (Matthew 6:12). God will guide and protect you if you are serious in praying for this. "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:41). In fact, fasting will help you with this, as well. Being enslaved to sin is a demonic influence. While being enslaves to sin does not mean a Christian is possessed by a demon, we learn that certain demon possessions could not be driven out only by prayer and fasting (Matthew 17:21). So if demon possession at the most intense level can only be healed (by the casting out of the demon) by both prayer and fasting, then it is a sure bet that fasting and praying to overcome sin will also help a believer overcome sin (Which is a demonic influence).

    #3. Obey God’s righteous ways.

    Obey God’s righteous ways. The more you love God and love others and obey His Word and stay in His Word and pray, the more you will not even have a chance to sin or do the wrong thing. But the more you walk in God's Word by the Spirit you will not fulfill the lusts of flesh. "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Galatians 5:16). "But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof." (Romans 13:14). "But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Romans 6:22).

    #4. When you are tempted, quote Scripture.

    When you are tempted, quote Scripture. When Jesus was tempted by the devil, He quoted Scripture to defeat the devil (Matthew 4:4) (Matthew 4:7) (Matthew 4:10). So when some specific sin is bothering you, find all the verses you can that are victory verses over that particular sin. A good general verse (Especially if you are tempted to look at women in lust if you find yourself in public around a lot of people) is, “The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.” (Psalms 23:1). You can say these verses to yourself silently under your breath (with nobody hearing).

    #5. Ask for prayer from other God fearing Christians.

    Ask for prayer from other God fearing Christians or Godly Christians to help you to overcome certain sins. The Scriptures say, bear ye one another's burdens and thus fulfill the Law of Christ. So seek true fellowship and ask for their help. In 1 John 5, we see Christians praying for a believer who is struggling to overcome a sin (that they are confessing). "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16). A faithful Christian shall ask God to give their fellow Christian life (victory) in overcoming their sin that they are confessing (i.e. sin that is confessed is not a sin that leads unto death).

    #6. Hide God’s Word in your heart.

    Hide God’s Word in your heart. Memorize Scripture. David said he hid God’s Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord. "Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee." (Psalms 119:11).

    #7. Confess of your sins.

    Confess of your sins. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    #8. Suffer in the Flesh:

    1 Peter 4:1 says he that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin (Note: Also see verse 2). We should suffer in the flesh by:

    1. Resisting during times of temptation.
    2. Fasting.
    3. Being persecuted for Christ’s sake.

    I have written other points with Scripture that need fleshing out a bit more. But hopefully these things I have written will help. Love, peace, and joy be to you in the Lord Jesus Christ.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,073
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Show me the chapter and verse where the Lord teaches that His point in giving us the two greatest commandments was for us to not keep them. For if God did not think we could keep His commandments, then He would not get upset if we ever disobeyed Him. For it would be like kicking a dog for pooping on the carpet when the master knows that the dog has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick. But Psalms 7:11 says God is angry at the wicked every day. It does not really make any sense for God to give us a command if He knows it would be impossible for us to keep them. Does God command us to fly off buildings, or to jump 50 feet in the air? God is not the author of confusion. You have rationalized based on your own experience that you cannot keep God's commands, and you are not deriving this kind of belief from the Bible itself.

    Not true. Read Luke 1:5-6 again very carefully.

    “...a certain priest named Zacharias,... and his wife... Elisabeth.”
    “...were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.” (Luke 1:5-6).​

    So I believe for the discussion of this section of this thread, Zacharias, and his wife Elisabth kept all the commandments that dealt with spiritual death if they were disobeyed. So it appears you are just not reading and believing this passage because you don't like it. Nothing in the context suggests what you have said or supports your view of sin and salvation.


    But this is you thinking this way. The context of Luke 10:28-30 in no way suggests what your thinking in any way. The whole point was on obedience to these two commands as a part of eternal life.

    “And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).​

    Notice. Jesus told the lawyer, “...this do, and you shall live.”

    Jesus did not correct the lawyer, by saying,

    “Wrong lawyer!” “You cannot do anything to save yourself.” “You are saved by God's grace” “So don't worry too much about sin.” “Just believe on me for salvation.”​

    Are these the words (in the above paragraph) that Jesus spoke? Surely not.

    As for Matthew 5:48 that says be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect:

    Well, this is not talking about general perfection, but it is talking about being perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect is in context to loving your enemies.

    Here is context of Matthew 5:48.

    Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven:” (Matthew 5:44-45).
     
  13. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

    +1,265
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    @Bible Highlighter you win, there's no way I'm going though all that lol. I did browse your "ways to overcome mortal sin" list, and it looks like the standard pattern to follow as a Christian. But you're still sinning on a daily basis despite all of that. The more you grow in sanctification, the more aware you become of how sin permeates your daily life. This is a good thread regrarding sin > Depth of sin Have a pleasant Shabbat.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
  14. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

    +1,265
    United States
    Christian
    Single

    I'll add a bit here. You're still operating under a false presumption. It's not "don't worry about sin". It's you are full of sin and you need to have the honesty and humility to admit that to God and to yourself.

    I'll repeat; what I'm saying is not supposed to be interpreted as a license to sin. Or to have a complacent attitude towards sin. Or to have a blasé attitude towards your salvation.

    Quite the contrary. It's about not being self-righteous. If you think you have reached a point where you are no longer sinning, you are deceiving yourself.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    554
    +252
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Hey, where is the scripture verse in this post.
    ... is it now “share your opinions” hour? ;)
     
  16. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

    +1,265
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    Hypocrite! You didn't back that post up with a scripture verse.
     
  17. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    554
    +252
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Wrong gender in the Greek.

    [Eph 2:8 KJV] 8 For by grace (Noun - Dative Singular Feminine) are ye saved (Verb - Perfect Passive Participle - Nominative Plural Masculine) through faith (Noun - Genitive Singular Feminine); and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift (Noun - Nominative Singular Neuter) of God:

    “gift” should be Masculine if “saved” was the gift.
    “gift” should be feminine if “grace” or “faith” was the gift.
    “Gift” is neuter because all of it, the masculine and the feminine, is the gift from God.

    the “gift” is saved and grace and faith ... none of which is from us and all of which is from and to reveal the glory of God.
    Soli Deo Gloria! (To God Alone Be The Glory!)
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2021
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

    554
    +252
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    It was YOUR thread and YOUR rule ... not mine. I just needed clarification if the rule had been lifted.

    It would seem that it has (since your response also violated YOUR RULE about including scripture to back up what you say.) :p

    VERSE: proferentem mendacia testem fallacem et eum qui seminat inter fratres discordias
     
  19. MMXX

    MMXX I Got Vaccinated

    +1,265
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    This ain't my thread.

    Sorry, I don't speak Spanish. If'n it's not KJV's it's not a real verse :D
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

    +7,073
    United States
    Non-Denom
    Married
    We read about Jesus marveling at the Centurion's faith in Matthew 8:5-13. We read about Jesus criticizing others for having little faith (Matthew 8:26), and for doubting (Matthew 14:31). Jesus is one with the Father (John 10:30). Jesus is God (John 1:1-3) (John 1:14) (John 20:28). 1 John 5:7 KJB says, “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” God naturally is not amazed at His own power because He is God. But Jesus (God) can be amazed by the greatness of the Centurions faith (of which we read about in Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus can raise the dead just as the Father can raise the dead to life. “For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will” (John 5:21).
     
Loading...