Is faith a gift that only God can give us? (Note: I have an answer, but I would like input).

[Ceallaigh]

Okay. So you think God does all the heavy lifting. If so, then you should be able to testify to this in your life by God helping you and others to obey Him and live righteously with very little effort on your part. Is this the reality you live in? Are God's commands uplifted in your life and the lives of others by this kind of belief you hold to (In that God does all the heavy lifting)?

The scriptures say that God tests us (but not beyond our ability) punishes us, prunes us, shapes us, salts us with fire and so on. After a period of complacency, I'm totally on fire again. And I attribute that totally to God. I didn't get my act together. God kicked me in the seat of my pants to get me where He wants me to be. And then to extend that further.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Is faith a gift that only God can give us?

1. Yes (Only God can give us the gift of faith).
2. No (God already makes man with the capacity to excercise faith without any help from God).
3. Other (Please explain)

I'd say 3. As in both. Of course faith is provided by God. It's certainly not something that's man-made. God had to give us the gift of faith in order for us to be able to exercise it. Do we exercise faith without help from God?

I'd say based on numerous accounts given in scripture, the answer is no.
Moses showed a lack of faith at the burning bush, so God performed signs and wonders to help Moses exercise his faith, as written in Exodus 4. And many more examples of course. In my opinion it's not a 1 or 2 either one or the other thing. It's both working together, with God helping us exercise the gift(s) He gave us.

Faith is just another way of saying.... the Holy Bible. We get the words of Jesus from the Holy Bible. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Jesus) (Romans 10:17). So obviously the Holy Bible comes from God and not men. So when I refer to those who think faith is a gift, I am not referring to those who believe in Calvinism. They think the ABILITY to have faith or a belief in God and His Word is granted by God. Our faith comes by our hearing God's Word. The more a Christian believes and obeys God's Word, the more their faith will increase. I believe God abides with His Word always. So if we respond to what His Word (the Bible) says, then God can then move in our life. I believe God elects us based on His foreknowledge of how we will respond (1 Peter 1:1-2). But this involves our free will. God can show us the truth of what His Word says but it is up to us to accept it or not.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The scriptures say that God tests us (but not beyond our ability) punishes us, prunes us, shapes us, salts us with fire and so on. After a period of complacency, I'm totally on fire again. And I attribute that totally to God. I didn't get my act together. God kicked me in the seat of my pants to get me where He wants me to be. And then to extend that further.

Are you totally on fire for 1 Timothy 6:12? It's a part of God's Word. What do you think it says?

 

[Ceallaigh]

It is written:

“since the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but are powerful through God for the demolition of strongholds. We demolish arguments.” (2 Corinthians 10:4) (CSB).

Lol. Do you normally refer to the CSB? That tack on sounds like something added by a teenager.

 

[Ramon]

I believe that the first thing needed to be set is the definition of faith. We all tend to think that it means the same for everyone and from my experience it is never the case.

Some believe its just believing that Jesus existed and died for our sins.
BLH says that its a free will thing that we choose to exercise.

But how do we exercise it?

Many years ago i read Luke 14:33 where Jesus said that anyone who wants to become a Christian has to sell it all. Then I reread the gospels and saw that Jesus was saying not to worry about food or clothing, not to worry about tomorrow, that God would be my Father and provide everything i needed. I believed Him, I had faith that He meant every word. So i quit my job and sold it all and gave it to the poor, walked out into the world with nothing. With nothing, i was still able to travel, He fed me, clothed me, and He kept every single word that Jesus told us. Faith is believing the gospel, every word Jesus says, If Jesus says don't worry about food, then don't worry, you will see how God does feed you, all Jesus said for us to do was what? Seek the kingdom and all things will be provided to you. Do you really have faith? if you did, the evidence would be that you believe what He said and do it.

Faith with out the action is dead.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Lol. Do you normally refer to the CSB? That tack on sounds like something added by a teenager.

Your thoughts are not God’s thoughts.

The KJB says “pulling down of strongholds” and verse 5 continues on to say,

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:4).

So they are saying the same thing.

A construction crew pulled down the building.
A construction crew demolished the building.

Let’s look at Webster’s 1913 dictionary.

Demolish:

To throw or pull down; to raze; to destroy the fabric of; to pull to pieces; to ruin; as, to demolish an edifice, or a wall.
[imp. & p. p. Demolished ; p. pr. & vb. n. Demolishing.]
I expected the fabric of my book would long since have been demolished, and laid even with the ground.
- Tillotson.

Verb 1. demolish - destroy completely;

The word “destroy” and “destroyed” appears multiple times in the King James Bible.

Acts of the Apostles 3:23 (KJB) says,
“....every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”

In context, this verse is referring to that prophet as the Lord Jesus Christ.

We must obey Jesus and not just believe in Him, otherwise we will be destroyed (or demolished). Still not convinced?

Let’s read Matthew 7.

“And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:26-27).

The idea here is that we are the house and Jesus says if we do not do what he says our temple will be destroyed. Our house will fall if we do not obey Jesus. There is no other way to read this warning by the Lord Jesus.

 

[Ceallaigh]

These two sentences are contradictory.
In the first sentence you suggest that I am being childish because I want to fight you with the physical sword, and then in the second sentence you say that you understand that I am referring to the Word of God. So if you know I am referring to wanting to debate with you with the Word of God, then why insult me with thinking I was referring to a physical sword?

It was a joke. I even added an emoticon to signify that. But I also figured that since you thought I didn't know about the Trinity and Protestantism, you'd figure I actually thought you meant an actual sword because I didn't know enough to be aware of the reference you were using.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It was a joke. I even added an emoticon to signify that. But I also figured that since you thought I didn't know about the Trinity and Protestantism, you'd figure I actually thought you meant an actual sword because I didn't know enough to be aware of the reference you were using.

Yes, I knew you were joking but it was also worded in a way that was insulting towards me and it was contradictory to what you said after. It was as if two different people were talking to me. So how about you stop with theses kinds of jokes and discuss more the Word of God instead?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Are you totally on fire for 1 Timothy 6:12? It's a part of God's Word. What do you think it says?

You mean you want me to give you something to demolish?

I think it means Paul is giving instructions on the attributes of being an apostle of the church. It follows in contrast to Paul speaking about the characteristics of false teachers.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Yes, I knew you were joking but it was also worded in a way that was insulting towards me and it was contradictory to what you said after. It was as if two different people were talking to me. So how about you stop with theses kinds of jokes and discuss more the Word of God instead?

How about you stop tying so hard to sound like a authority figure? Unless that is you actually are one. But as far as I can tell you're just an another anonymous ordinary average self-taught Joe on the internet.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Your thoughts are not God’s thoughts.

The KJB says “pulling down of strongholds” and verse 5 continues on to say,

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” (2 Corinthians 10:4).

So they are saying the same thing.

A construction crew pulled down the building.
A construction crew demolished the building.

Let’s look at Webster’s 1913 dictionary.

Demolish:

To throw or pull down; to raze; to destroy the fabric of; to pull to pieces; to ruin; as, to demolish an edifice, or a wall.
[imp. & p. p. Demolished ; p. pr. & vb. n. Demolishing.]
I expected the fabric of my book would long since have been demolished, and laid even with the ground.
- Tillotson.

Verb 1. demolish - destroy completely;

The word “destroy” and “destroyed” appears multiple times in the King James Bible.

Acts of the Apostles 3:23 (KJB) says,
“....every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”

In context, this verse is referring to that prophet as the Lord Jesus Christ.

We must obey Jesus and not just believe in Him, otherwise we will be destroyed (or demolished). Still not convinced?

Let’s read Matthew 7.

“And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:26-27).

The idea here is that we are the house and Jesus says if we do not do what he says our temple will be destroyed. Our house will fall if we do not obey Jesus. There is no other way to read this warning by the Lord Jesus.

Here's the problem, the CSB included part of verse 5 into verse 4. It should have been printed as: "4 since the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but are powerful through God for the demolition of strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every proud thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ." That's why it looked like something whoever wrote the CSB added onto verse 4.

That aside, I consider it a poor translation of kathairountes.

Furthermore you said that you demolished my argument. If you're saying that you were applying that statement according to 2 Corinthians 10:5 (not 10:4, but 10:5) you're saying that my saying salvation isn't earned by works and performance and a do-it-yourself thing, exalts itself against the knowledge of God. Is that really the context you want to go with?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Faith is just another way of saying.... the Holy Bible. We get the words of Jesus from the Holy Bible. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Jesus) (Romans 10:17). So obviously the Holy Bible comes from God and not men. So when I refer to those who think faith is a gift, I am not referring to those who believe in Calvinism. They think the ABILITY to have faith or a belief in God and His Word is granted by God. Our faith comes by our hearing God's Word. The more a Christian believes and obeys God's Word, the more their faith will increase. I believe God abides with His Word always. So if we respond to what His Word (the Bible) says, then God can then move in our life. I believe God elects us based on His foreknowledge of how we will respond (1 Peter 1:1-2). But this involves our free will. God can show us the truth of what His Word says but it is up to us to accept it or not.

That sounds alright to me. But I don't see how it corresponds with;

1. Yes (Only God can give us the gift of faith).
2. No (God already makes man with the capacity to excercise faith without any help from God).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You mean you want me to give you something to demolish?

I think it means Paul is giving instructions on the attributes of being an apostle of the church. It follows in contrast to Paul speaking about the characteristics of false teachers.

So the eternal life mentioned in 1 Timothy 6:12 is not referring to eternal life because the context is talking exclusively about being an apostle and it is not talking about salvation?



Is that what you are saying?

 

[Ceallaigh]

I am simply stating a fact. I did demolish your view of faith and salvation by the verses I put forth to you that you do not accept plainly in what they say.

No you demolished what you created as my view of faith and salvation. I know others have pointed out that you create a straw-man to knock down. Make something up and then demolish it.

Again, this is what you do. Keep making it about me.

I address things that you say with your own words. You deflect from that be saying "discuss the Word of God, not me" or words to that effect.

Why don't you try explaining 1 Timothy 6:12 in how that works from your belief? Do you even currently have an explanation on 1 Timothy 6:12? Or do you have to do an internet search in how that verse fits into your belief system?

How about you actually give an explanation yourself for that verse you keep harping on. Then I'll tell you what I think of your interpretation.

 

[Ceallaigh]

So the eternal life mentioned in 1 Timothy 6:12 is not referring to eternal life because the context is talking exclusively about being an apostle and it is not talking about salvation?



Is that what you are saying?

Nope. I think Paul was instructing Timothy to hold onto eternal life, rather than to pursue riches of this world like the false teachers he was talking about. I don't think Paul was telling Timothy that he had to earn eternal life or that he was warning him that he would lose his eternal life if he didn't perform well enough. I don't think that's what the message was about.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Here's the problem, the CSB included part of verse 5 into verse 4. It should have been printed as: "4 since the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but are powerful through God for the demolition of strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every proud thing that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ." That's why it looked like something whoever wrote the CSB added onto verse 4.

That aside, I consider it a poor translation of kathairountes.

Furthermore you said that you demolished my argument. If you're saying that you were applying that statement according to 2 Corinthians 10:5 (not 10:4, but 10:5) you're saying that my saying salvation isn't earned by works and performance and a do-it-yourself thing, exalts itself against the knowledge of God. Is that really the context you want to go with?

The KJB is my final Word of authority but in this particular instance, the CSB is paraphrasing what the KJB basically says when you read verses 4 and 5 together. In this instance they are basically saying the same thing. To pull down strongholds is to demolish arguments that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. The overall broader context in view in 2 Corinthians is that Paul is talking about the Corinthians repenting after a godly sorrow (2 Corinthians 7:10).

“For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.” (2 Corinthians 7:10).

The Corinthians sought forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer (with a godly sorrow) with the intention of forever putting away the sins that they were doing.

Paul says in 2 Corinthians 12,
“For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.” (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

“Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” (2 Corinthians 13:5).

How can we have an assurance that we know that Christ is in us (thereby not being reprobate)?

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” (1 John 2:3).

Yet, the person who says they know the Lord and they don't keep his commandments is said to be a liar and the truth is not in them.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).


Side Note:

Oh, and you ignored Acts of the Apostles 3:23 and Matthew 7:26-27.
Again, these verses show that you must obey the Lord Jesus and not just believe on Him alone. Please set aside your difference in how you feel about me personally and just read these verses very slowly and pray about them in what they actually say, my friend.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Nope. I think Paul was instructing Timothy to hold onto eternal life, rather than to pursue riches of this world like the false teachers he was talking about. I don't think Paul was telling Timothy that he had to earn eternal life or that he was warning him that he would lose his eternal life if he didn't perform well enough. I don't think that's what the message was about.

Several problems here on your interpretation of 1 Timothy 6:12.

Problem #1. - You are not reading and believing this verse at face value. It says FIGHT the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life. So think about the word “fight.” Does that sound like you do nothing? No. Of course not. We fight the good fight is tied to the truth that says: “we lay hold on eternal life.” Final eternal life in being “glorified” (i.e. being taken home to be with the Lord). For it is why a particular church was told to be faithful unto death and they would be given the crown of life (Revelation 2:10).

Problem #2. - You say that this is dealing with the context of pursuing riches of this world like false teachers. This is true. Paul says, “you, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.” (1 Timothy 6:11). So if “I flee chasing after riches and follow or chase after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, etc.” am I not doing something? Is not my fleeing riches and following after righteousness and godliness (holy living) an action in some way? Am I doing nothing by doing this? Surely not. So this is a part of the good fight of faith in laying hold on eternal life. I have to be faithful unto death so as to receive the crown of life. Faithful not in just in having a mental acknowledgement of the Savior. For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). So your bringing in the context about riches only helps to prove my case by our obeying the Lord, and it does not prove your case in doing nothing.

Problem #3. - You also fail to look at the context of 1 Timothy 6:3-4. 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says, “If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,...”;

Not sure if you caught it or not, but Paul is saying that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. Is a proud man saved? Well, according to James 4:6, it says: God resists the proud and He gives grace to the humble. Think about that for a moment. The person who does not agree with godly living according to God's Word knows nothing and they are proud. Is a person who thinks they can sin and still be saved agreeing with the doctrine of godliness or the words of Jesus Christ? Well, when I tell other Christians today about Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28, many of them say that those words do not exactly apply to them. In other words, they are not agreeing with the words of Jesus. Paul said that a man who does not agree with the words of Jesus and the doctrine according to godliness is proud and he knows nothing. Let that sink in, brother.

 

[sawdust]

It seems according to 1 Corinthians 12:9, faith is a gift given to us by the Holy Spirit.

4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit" 1 Corinthians 12:4-9

That's the supernatural gift of faith, completely different to your everyday garden variety of faith. The gift requires no knowledge/learning (ie.hearing the Word Rom.10:17) It was needed a lot more in the early days as the canon of (NT) scripture was not complete.

 

[Ramon]

That's the supernatural gift of faith, completely different to your everyday garden variety of faith. The gift requires no knowledge/learning (ie.hearing the Word Rom.10:17) It was needed a lot more in the early days as the canon of (NT) scripture was not complete.

Could you elaborate the difference between one faith and another?

 

[Ceallaigh]

The KJB is my final Word of authority but in this particular instance, the CSB is paraphrasing what the KJB basically says when you read verses 4 and 5 together. In this instance they are basically saying the same thing. To pull down strongholds is to demolish arguments that exalts itself against the knowledge of God. The overall broader context in view in 2 Corinthians is that Paul is talking about the Corinthians repenting after a godly sorrow (2 Corinthians 7:10).

“For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.” (2 Corinthians 7:10).

The Corinthians sought forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer (with a godly sorrow) with the intention of forever putting away the sins that they were doing.

Paul says in 2 Corinthians 12,
“For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.” (2 Corinthians 12:20-21).

“Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” (2 Corinthians 13:5).

How can we have an assurance that we know that Christ is in us (thereby not being reprobate)?

“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.” (1 John 2:3).

Yet, the person who says they know the Lord and they don't keep his commandments is said to be a liar and the truth is not in them.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).


Side Note:

Oh, and you ignored Acts of the Apostles 3:23 and Matthew 7:26-27.
Again, these verses show that you must obey the Lord Jesus and not just believe on Him alone. Please set aside your difference in how you feel about me personally and just read these verses very slowly and pray about them in what they actually say, my friend.

I still think your comment about demolishing my argument sounded boastful. And as far as ignoring goes, I don't always have the time to address everything you post. Which is pretty excessive as others have pointed out. And It's hard to put aside your online demeanor because it comes on so strong.

As to your verses; you think I'm holding a view or position that I'm not actually holding.