Is faith a gift that only God can give us? (Note: I have an answer, but I would like input).

[Bible Highlighter]

Hello again BHL, I haven't gotten back to your comments on my other thread yet. But in the meantime:

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:5-7

I find the doctrine of regeneration or being born again to help with the idea of faith. So if faith is not a gift, it seems like Jesus would tell Nicodemus to "just believe" right here. But that's not what He says:

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”" John 3:8

Huh... the wind blows where it wants? Sounds like we have to born again BEFORE we believe, which would also make it sound like faith (at the very minimum of trusting in Christ) is a gift.

As for the role of the The Spirit

“And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me;” (John 16:8-9).

Now stop and think about that. John did not say the Spirit will reprove only the Elect, but he said that the Spirit will reprove the world of it's sin because they don't believe on Jesus. So the Spirit's goal is to reprove everyone of sin, and of righteousness. For Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for not only our sins (i.e. believers) but for the sins of the WHOLE world (1 John 2:2).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hello again BHL, I haven't gotten back to your comments on my other thread yet. But in the meantime:

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ John 3:5-7

I find the doctrine of regeneration or being born again to help with the idea of faith. So if faith is not a gift, it seems like Jesus would tell Nicodemus to "just believe" right here. But that's not what He says:

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”" John 3:8

Huh... the wind blows where it wants? Sounds like we have to born again BEFORE we believe, which would also make it sound like faith (at the very minimum of trusting in Christ) is a gift.

In my view, it's obvious from reading the Bible that Calvinism is clearly not true.
For there are so many problems and inconsistencies in Calvinism it's not even funny.
It's like flat earthers who hold to flat earth because they have 75 flat earth bible verses.
Yet, everyone knows that the earth is round.

For example:

Why did Jesus preach ‘except you repent, you shall all likewise perish’ when the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish? (See: Luke 13:5).

How can the Lord hold the non-elect accountable for ‘not believing’ and condemn them for it, when He purposely did not give them the faith to enable them to believe to begin with?

If Jesus had previously made atonement for the sins of an elect individual, do you believe they are lost during the period of time prior to their being saved?

Calvinism would be like creating a robot whereby you left it to it's own programming to kill people, and then you later put that robot on trial for murder. It would be illogical to judge the robot for killing if the robot had no other choice outside of it's programming to not kill. So a God who judges the wicked for something that they had no control over when God could have easily changed it for them places the blame of salvation on God and not the sinner. Why would God want to see them perish if He had the sole power to save them?

Here is another example: Imagine if you, your family, and a bunch of others are lost at sea, and a coast guard comes. However, imagine if you will that the coast guard saves everyone else out of the water, but he does not save you and your family. You ask him why he is not saving all of you, and he says... "No reason." As he drives away into the distance, would you not think it was unfair? Would you not think the coast guard was being mean, cold, and cruel? You sure would, unless you felt like you deserved to be treated unfairly or something.

Why would God punish the wicked at a Judgment if it was God who placed them there? It makes no sense. That would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room (like a football) because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (When the dog owner knows it has such a problem). The poor animal has no control over it's pooping function, and it is forced to release it's poop all over the carpet uncontrollably. Yet, the master of the animal does not care and he is going to punish the animal for something it has no control over. The dog owner is heartless. This is the view of God that I must believe in if Unconditional Election is true. But it is illogical. It is unbiblical. For my Bible says, "God is love." (1 John 4:8). My Bible says, "For God so loved the world..." (John 3:16).

2 Peter 2:1 says,
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

It says here that there are false prophets and teachers who deny the Lord WHO BOUGHT THEM. How can the Lord buy false prophets and teachers if He only died for the elect? It makes no sense.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says,
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

It says that those who perish do so because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH that they might be saved. It does not say they perish because God did not elect them. It also says that they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT BE SAVED. In Calvinism, there is no such thing as MIGHT be saved.

1 John 2:2 says,
“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world”

Jesus is not only the atoning sacrifice for us believers, but he is also the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Calvinism does not believe that.

Free Will in the Bible Concerning God:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.


Jonah chapter 3 is another big one that refutes Calvinism.

In this chapter we read about how Jonah had told the Ninevites that they would be overthrown in 40 days. But they cried out to God and forsaken their evil ways after hearing Jonah preach. When God noticed that they had forsaken their wickedness, that is when God turned back in bringing Judgment or wrath upon them. So the Ninevites were not saved because they were the Elect, but they were saved and escaped judgment because THEY changed the situation whereby God had shown mercy to them.

 

[BBAS 64]

If John 3 was the only chapter in the Bible, you might be on to something. But we have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word. Peter says repent and be converted in Acts of the Apostles 3:19.

Again, think about how dumb it is to say that God forces faith upon a person. This would mean Jesus was amazed at what God the Father does even though He is one with God the Father. For Jesus marveled at the greatness of the Centurion's faith. Faith comes by HEARING the Word of God (Romans 10:17). The Word of God is Jesus or the Bible. So if we hear (obey) Jesus's words we get faith.

But lets look at John 3:

In John 3:18-19 it says:

“...he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”
(John 3:18-19).

Jesus says he that does not believe is condemned because....

(a) Calvinist says because God did not Elect Him to salvation.
(b) Jesus says becaue HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of GOD.

Jesus says that the condemnation is that men loved darkness because their deeds were evil.
Jesus DID NOT SAY that the condemnation is that men loved darkness because God did not Elect them.

Good Day,

You build strawmen ( Fallacy) and burn them so fast it is amazing...

OK primary sources your you illogical fallacy:

You said "Calvinist says because God did not Elect Him to salvation."

Primary sources for such baseless assertion please make sure it is primary source.

He has not believed, because he has not been granted Faith. Would you agree that Faith is a needed element required to believe?

Men love darkness because their deeds are wicked and hearts are wicked.

God must give them a new heart Rebirth... if he does not do so they will alway hate the light and love darkness.

In Him

Bill





In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

In my view, it's obvious from reading the Bible that Calvinism is clearly not true.
For there are so many problems and inconsistencies in Calvinism it's not even funny.
It's like flat earthers who hold to flat earth because they have 75 flat earth bible verses.
Yet, everyone knows that the earth is round.

For example:

Why did Jesus preach ‘except you repent, you shall all likewise perish’ when the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish? (See: Luke 13:5).

How can the Lord hold the non-elect accountable for ‘not believing’ and condemn them for it, when He purposely did not give them the faith to enable them to believe to begin with?

If Jesus had previously made atonement for the sins of an elect individual, do you believe they are lost during the period of time prior to their being saved?

Calvinism would be like creating a robot whereby you left it to it's own programming to kill people, and then you later put that robot on trial for murder. It would be illogical to judge the robot for killing if the robot had no other choice outside of it's programming to not kill. So a God who judges the wicked for something that they had no control over when God could have easily changed it for them places the blame of salvation on God and not the sinner. Why would God want to see them perish if He had the sole power to save them?

Here is another example: Imagine if you, your family, and a bunch of others are lost at sea, and a coast guard comes. However, imagine if you will that the coast guard saves everyone else out of the water, but he does not save you and your family. You ask him why he is not saving all of you, and he says... "No reason." As he drives away into the distance, would you not think it was unfair? Would you not think the coast guard was being mean, cold, and cruel? You sure would, unless you felt like you deserved to be treated unfairly or something.

Why would God punish the wicked at a Judgment if it was God who placed them there? It makes no sense. That would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room (like a football) because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (When the dog owner knows it has such a problem). The poor animal has no control over it's pooping function, and it is forced to release it's poop all over the carpet uncontrollably. Yet, the master of the animal does not care and he is going to punish the animal for something it has no control over. The dog owner is heartless. This is the view of God that I must believe in if Unconditional Election is true. But it is illogical. It is unbiblical. For my Bible says, "God is love." (1 John 4:8). My Bible says, "For God so loved the world..." (John 3:16).

2 Peter 2:1 says,
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

It says here that there are false prophets and teachers who deny the Lord WHO BOUGHT THEM. How can the Lord buy false prophets and teachers if He only died for the elect? It makes no sense.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says,
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

It says that those who perish do so because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH that they might be saved. It does not say they perish because God did not elect them. It also says that they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT BE SAVED. In Calvinism, there is no such thing as MIGHT be saved.

1 John 2:2 says,
“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world”

Jesus is not only the atoning sacrifice for us believers, but he is also the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Calvinism does not believe that.

Free Will in the Bible Concerning God:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.


Jonah chapter 3 is another big one that refutes Calvinism.

In this chapter we read about how Jonah had told the Ninevites that they would be overthrown in 40 days. But they cried out to God and forsaken their evil ways after hearing Jonah preach. When God noticed that they had forsaken their wickedness, that is when God turned back in bringing Judgment or wrath upon them. So the Ninevites were not saved because they were the Elect, but they were saved and escaped judgment because THEY changed the situation whereby God had shown mercy to them.

Good Day,

You are simply begging the question... none of these verses teach that man has a free will you assume it and beg the question were does it say man has free will??

Men do choose that is correct but does not answer the question where does it say man has free will.


Oh yes Jonah the man who thought he had the right to choose that which he wanted with out correction from the all sovereign God...

God said GO... Jonah made a choice (freely) to say no and go else where.
God disregarded Jonah's free choice... God then used his creation against Jonah and he ended up in a whales belly. Spat on a beach...

Poor Jonah looking at the land of the Ninevites (Go) and the water (jump back in) God says choose I dare ya.

God wins Jonah trapped like a rat. Checkmate!

In Him,

Bill

Poor Jonah he was not happy... Clay the the potter hand.

 

[HosannaHM]

In my view, it's obvious from reading the Bible that Calvinism is clearly not true.
For there are so many problems and inconsistencies in Calvinism it's not even funny.
It's like flat earthers who hold to flat earth because they have 75 flat earth bible verses.
Yet, everyone knows that the earth is round.

For example:

Why did Jesus preach ‘except you repent, you shall all likewise perish’ when the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish? (See: Luke 13:5).

How can the Lord hold the non-elect accountable for ‘not believing’ and condemn them for it, when He purposely did not give them the faith to enable them to believe to begin with?

If Jesus had previously made atonement for the sins of an elect individual, do you believe they are lost during the period of time prior to their being saved?

Calvinism would be like creating a robot whereby you left it to it's own programming to kill people, and then you later put that robot on trial for murder. It would be illogical to judge the robot for killing if the robot had no other choice outside of it's programming to not kill. So a God who judges the wicked for something that they had no control over when God could have easily changed it for them places the blame of salvation on God and not the sinner. Why would God want to see them perish if He had the sole power to save them?

Here is another example: Imagine if you, your family, and a bunch of others are lost at sea, and a coast guard comes. However, imagine if you will that the coast guard saves everyone else out of the water, but he does not save you and your family. You ask him why he is not saving all of you, and he says... "No reason." As he drives away into the distance, would you not think it was unfair? Would you not think the coast guard was being mean, cold, and cruel? You sure would, unless you felt like you deserved to be treated unfairly or something.

Why would God punish the wicked at a Judgment if it was God who placed them there? It makes no sense. That would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room (like a football) because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (When the dog owner knows it has such a problem). The poor animal has no control over it's pooping function, and it is forced to release it's poop all over the carpet uncontrollably. Yet, the master of the animal does not care and he is going to punish the animal for something it has no control over. The dog owner is heartless. This is the view of God that I must believe in if Unconditional Election is true. But it is illogical. It is unbiblical. For my Bible says, "God is love." (1 John 4:8). My Bible says, "For God so loved the world..." (John 3:16).

2 Peter 2:1 says,
“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.”

It says here that there are false prophets and teachers who deny the Lord WHO BOUGHT THEM. How can the Lord buy false prophets and teachers if He only died for the elect? It makes no sense.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says,
“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

It says that those who perish do so because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH that they might be saved. It does not say they perish because God did not elect them. It also says that they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT BE SAVED. In Calvinism, there is no such thing as MIGHT be saved.

1 John 2:2 says,
“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world”

Jesus is not only the atoning sacrifice for us believers, but he is also the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Calvinism does not believe that.

Free Will in the Bible Concerning God:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.


Jonah chapter 3 is another big one that refutes Calvinism.

In this chapter we read about how Jonah had told the Ninevites that they would be overthrown in 40 days. But they cried out to God and forsaken their evil ways after hearing Jonah preach. When God noticed that they had forsaken their wickedness, that is when God turned back in bringing Judgment or wrath upon them. So the Ninevites were not saved because they were the Elect, but they were saved and escaped judgment because THEY changed the situation whereby God had shown mercy to them.

Whoa. Okay. I can't respond to all of the human reasoning in this post. Look BHL, I love you in the Lord. I'm okay with disagreeing about soteriology. Really. But don't boil down the doctrines of grace to say things like "it's so dumb it's not even funny". Have you considered the possibility, and I'm asking in good faith, that your Calvinist brothers and sisters might understand something that you don't? I know there are some passages that are difficult to reconcile all the points of TULIP with, such as 2 Peter 2:1 that you quoted. However, being the bible highlighter that you are, where do you think all those crazy Calvinists got the doctrines that they hold to? For every verse you post about free will, I can post several more that would be considered faithfully drawing from scripture. Highlight verses like Acts 13:48. Or maybe Ephesians 1:4. I'm sure you've looked at them. I know you're not interested in pitting scripture against scripture and marking out the verses you don't agree with, and neither am I or your Calvinist brothers.

I don't consider Arminianism as "so stupid it's not even funny". I understand where they are coming from. But it's so common for an Arminian to not even know what a Calvinist is trying to say that they boil it down to robots and various other types of human reasoning. Most of the Calvinists I know love scripture, they love the lost, and man do they love the Lord and His powerful grace.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good Day,

You build strawmen ( Fallacy) and burn them so fast it is amazing...

OK primary sources your you illogical fallacy:

You said "Calvinist says because God did not Elect Him to salvation."

Primary sources for such baseless assertion please make sure it is primary source.

He has not believed, because he has not been granted Faith. Would you agree that Faith is a needed element required to believe?

Men love darkness because their deeds are wicked and hearts are wicked.

God must give them a new heart Rebirth... if he does not do so they will alway hate the light and love darkness.

In Him

Bill





In Him,

Bill

So you don't believe in Uncondtional Election?
Is not Election... God giving a person regeneration before they even believe or giving them the capacity to believe? The point I wanted to make is that if Calvinism was true, then the apostle John does not get to the root of the source as to the real reason why a person is condemned. It's not really a lack of belief that condemns them in the Calvinistic worldview but it is not being Elected by God or it is an Election to Reprobation. Belief in the Calvinistic worldview is merely a result of God's Election. A lack of belief in and of itself is not the true source or reason why they are truly condemned (If Calvinism was true). As for your claim that I am not accurately representing Calvinism: Well, I am sure anyone here can Google the five points of Calvinism and see them for themselves and know that I am telling the truth. It's not like we are in the 80's whereby you can hide the truth from people so easily. A person can just Google things nowadays.

Side Note:

Oh, and this is not my first rodeo involving the discussion of Calvinism. I have discussed this belief for approximately 10 years. I have read Calvinistic articles. I even believed in Total Depravity at one point in time, but the Bible won out even over that false belief, as well.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Whoa. Okay. I can't respond to all of the human reasoning in this post. Look BHL, I love you in the Lord. I'm okay with disagreeing about soteriology. Really. But don't boil down the doctrines of grace to say things like "it's so dumb it's not even funny". Have you considered the possibility, and I'm asking in good faith, that your Calvinist brothers and sisters might understand something that you don't? I know there are some passages that are difficult to reconcile all the points of TULIP with, such as 2 Peter 2:1 that you quoted. However, being the bible highlighter that you are, where do you think all those crazy Calvinists got the doctrines that they hold to? For every verse you post about free will, I can post several more that would be considered faithfully drawing from scripture. Highlight verses like Acts 13:48. Or maybe Ephesians 1:4. I'm sure you've looked at them. I know you're not interested in pitting scripture against scripture and marking out the verses you don't agree with, and neither am I or your Calvinist brothers.

I don't consider Arminianism as "so stupid it's not even funny". I understand where they are coming from. But it's so common for an Arminian to not even know what a Calvinist is trying to say that they boil it down to robots and various other types of human reasoning. Most of the Calvinists I know love scripture, they love the lost, and man do they love the Lord and His powerful grace.

Well, you did not quote me correctly. But I do think Calvinism is pretty silly. Do you not think the Flat Earth view is silly? There are just certain things in life that take the cake in being silly in my view. A guy who crosses a busy street without looking is pretty silly. Not wearing a mask today amongst a large crowd of people is silly. I believe this to be the same for Calvinism (No offense). I just call it like I see it. I am also not new to the Calvinist discussion. I know most of the Calvinistic proof texts and I have explained them before. But their ignoring of the verses I have put forth to them over the years only makes Calvinism all the more a defeated belief or position. The Calvinist has not really given me any sound good reasons for the free will verses I put forth towards them and the Scriptural biggies that demolish Calvinism over and over and over and over and over again. For if Calvinism was true, then refuting my points should be a breeze. But we both know that you cannot refute the points I brought up because they are the truth. You cannot defeat what is true and good. I believe Calvinism is also attack upon the good character of our God, as well. The points I brought up (that you ignored) shows this.

Okay. Lets just deal with my first two points that refutes Calvinism.

Why did Jesus preach ‘except you repent, you shall all likewise perish’ when the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish? (See: Luke 13:5).

How can the Lord hold the non-elect accountable for ‘not believing’ and condemn them for it, when He purposely did not give them the faith to enable them to believe to begin with?

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Says to abide in both

John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Jesus doctrine was not His but the Father's but we are to abide in the same to have both the Father and the Son

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Him and his words

Luke (;26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

Let me add to these in with the above when it come to Christ and the Fathers words

God bears witness of the words which would be spoken by Jesus (by His commandment) see also Hebrews 3:5, John 5:46, Acts 7:37, John 7:16, Hebrews 2:3

Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and *he shall speak* unto them all that I shall command him.

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and *what I should speak*.

Then if you follow it through it says

Duet 18:19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto *my words* which *he shall speak* in my name, I will require it of him.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not *my words*, hath one that judgeth him: *the word* that I have *spoken*, *the same* shall judge him in the last day.

John 17:8 For I have given unto them *the words* which thou *gavest me*; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

 

[HosannaHM]

Well, you did not quote me correctly. But I do think Calvinism is pretty silly. Do you not think the Flat Earth view is silly? There are just certain things in life that take the cake in being silly in my view. A guy who crosses a busy street without looking is pretty silly. Not wearing a mask today amongst a large crowd of people is silly. I believe this to be the same for Calvinism (No offense). I just call it like I see it. I am also not new to the Calvinist discussion. I know most of the Calvinistic proof texts and I have explained them before. But their ignoring of the verses I have put forth to them over the years only makes Calvinism all the more a defeated belief or position. The Calvinist has not really given me any sound good reasons for the free will verses I put forth towards them and the Scriptural biggies that demolish Calvinism over and over and over and over and over again. For if Calvinism was true, then refuting my points should be a breeze. But we both know that you cannot refute the points I brought up because they are the truth. You cannot defeat what is true and good. I believe Calvinism is also attack upon the good character of our God, as well. The points I brought up (that you ignored) shows this.

Okay. Lets just deal with my first two points that refutes Calvinism.

Why did Jesus preach ‘except you repent, you shall all likewise perish’ when the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish? (See: Luke 13:5).

How can the Lord hold the non-elect accountable for ‘not believing’ and condemn them for it, when He purposely did not give them the faith to enable them to believe to begin with?

Well... I know many people who feel the same way as you do on the reverse. That is that Arminianism is a plague upon God's character and an insult to His grace. I'm not ignoring your points, I'm just refusing to engage you on the doctrines because you clearly have pointed out that you have refuted Calvinism. Case closed, in your mind. I'm not going to try to persuade someone who isn't the least bit interested in being persuaded. You don't like Calvinism. Period.

I'm just encouraging you to be careful. Calvinists are not all stupid (which is why the flat-earth comment is insulting). John Calvin had a brilliant mind, and even many Arminians I know would agree with that. Calvinism is quite orthodox, and there have been faithful brothers and sisters who have shared that conviction.

See what I mean? I can't refute your points because they are truth? So you can't possibly be wrong in your interpretation but the Calvinists must be "because its so silly". So what's truth? The Scriptures? Or your interpretation?

Since I find your approach to Calvinism to be reductionist, I will give you a reductionist answer:
Why did Jesus preach ‘except you repent, you shall all likewise perish’ when the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish? Because our God is in the heavens and He does whatever He pleases. For who has known the mind of the Lord?

How can the Lord hold the non-elect accountable for ‘not believing’ and condemn them for it, when He purposely did not give them the faith to enable them to believe to begin with? Because He's God, and righteousness and justice surround His throne. Let it be known, there's no one that went to hell that wanted to go to heaven.

 

[a-lily-of-peace]

I think it would be good to separate the idea that faith is a gift from God from “Calvinism” and any associated baggage.

I know my faith is a gift from God because He is the one who was able to open my eyes and my heart away from everything else I was doing and liberate me from bondage. And I know this is good because I am grateful this grace.

I also feel there is a danger in turning the preaching of the gospel into a test of one’s great decision making skills. I know I couldn’t hear until God opened my ears and so I can’t in good conscience see another one who can’t hear yet as just a horrible decision maker who could hear if they really just put their mind to it, and yet that’s how I see some people treat evangelism. Maybe I’m wrong about their motivation but it sometimes comes across focused more on “me and my choice” rather than “God and His grace.”

Bringing “Calvinism” into it comes with the idea that God chooses to make people who are fated to damnation and can not be saved and I might not fully understand their position but I don’t feel right about that.

To simplify things, I would say, who is ultimately responsible for your salvation - God, by his grace, or you, by your faith? And moreso, who is responsible for your faith? You, who couldn’t create your own mind, who couldn’t create your own heart, or God, who could not only create them but give them new life as well?

I can’t make a flawless and ironclad theological argument (and to be fair if anyone could have done that this wouldn’t be a question) but I lean toward God being the one responsible, with my faith being second to and reliant on His grace.

That doesn’t mean it’s impossible to resist God’s grace (as Calvinists say), but rather that our response to God’s grace is always second to receiving it. At the conversion or born again moment, it’s God who moves first.

And to be fair it also doesn’t mean it’s necessarily possible to resist God’s grace - on this matter I can’t give an answer claiming to know much of anything at all.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Well... I know many people who feel the same way as you do on the reverse. That is that Arminianism is a plague upon God's character and an insult to His grace.

And this is because they do not accept all of what the Bible plainly says.
I can prove that to you right now.
Do you accept ALL the words in 2 Thessalonians 2:10?

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).​

It says that those who perish are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth... that they MIGHT BE SAVED. In Calvinism, there is no MIGHT BE SAVED. Yet, my Bible says it right in 2 Thessalonians 2:10. This verse alone should be enough for you and or anyone with basic reading skills to abandon the illogical belief of Calvinism. But beliefs that have been held on to for so long can be hard to let go of.

I'm not ignoring your points,

Yes, you are ignoring them. You have not figured out a rational or logical way to explain them.

I'm just refusing to engage you on the doctrines because you clearly have pointed out that you have refuted Calvinism. Case closed, in your mind. I'm not going to try to persuade someone who isn't the least bit interested in being persuaded. You don't like Calvinism. Period.

Right, I don't like Calvinism because it's not in the Bible and it smears the good character of GOD.
But do not refuse to engage on my account. Surely you must realize that other readers must come across this thread reading and looking for help to defend the faith. Why not help them? So don't do it for me, but do it to help your fellow brethren. But I know why you don't do that. It's because Calvinism is not true. Only a isolated surface reading of Romans 9 can appear to sound like Calvinism. The rest of the Bible does not really sound like Calvinism in the slightest.

I'm just encouraging you to be careful. Calvinists are not all stupid (which is why the flat-earth comment is insulting). John Calvin had a brilliant mind, and even many Arminians I know would agree with that. Calvinism is quite orthodox, and there have been faithful brothers and sisters who have shared that conviction.

Their is mental knowledge and being intelligent on certain things in life, but that does not mean a person's moral compass is operating correctly whereby they have wisdom and a proper understanding on biblical love, and justice. God does not punish people beyond what they are not capable of doing. Again, it's like kicking a dog who has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick. It's just not fair justice or good to do such a thing. Even unbelievers can see that a master kicking it's dog for being sick is cruel and mean, and not loving.

Since I find your approach to Calvinism to be reductionist, I will give you a reductionist answer:
Why did Jesus preach ‘except you repent, you shall all likewise perish’ when the non-elect can’t repent and the elect can’t perish? Because our God is in the heavens and He does whatever He pleases. For who has known the mind of the Lord?

Uh, your answer really does not resolve this problem in Calvinism. Again, you don't know how to resolve this dilema and so you just say that is how it is. Again, the Bible is not compatible with Calvinism because you cannot answer a simple problem that refutes Calvinism. So again, Jesus said repent or perish. But how can the elect perish? And how can the non-elect repent? If Jesus believed in Calvinism, he would say... repent my Elect. Repent, and heed the call. You Non-Elect over there... you will perish because God has chosen you for that fate. But did Jesus say that? No.

How can the Lord hold the non-elect accountable for ‘not believing’ and condemn them for it, when He purposely did not give them the faith to enable them to believe to begin with? Because He's God, and righteousness and justice surround His throne. Let it be known, there's no one that went to hell that wanted to go to heaven.

Sorry. That is not UNconditional Election. According to Calvinism: God does not elect based on any conditions within the individuals or vise versa. That's why it is called UNconditional Election. For if God changed His mind and He desired that Non-Elect who did not want to go to Heaven, to then go to Heaven, God could have chosen to Elect him and he would have no choice but to be forced to be saved and going to Heaven against his own previous will. But forced love is not love. Ask any loving married couple. They did not force each other to love one another. See, this is where Calvinism fails. It simply does not understand love and how that works. Love only can happen when two parties both agree of their own free will to love one another.

 

[sawdust]

He has not believed, because he has not been granted Faith. Would you agree that Faith is a needed element required to believe?

I would agree you have it back to front.

He has not faith because he has not believed. Faith is not required to believe, faith is the result of the Word plus I believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think it would be good to separate the idea that faith is a gift from God from “Calvinism” and any associated baggage.

I know my faith is a gift from God because He is the one who was able to open my eyes and my heart away from everything else I was doing and liberate me from bondage. And I know this is good because I am grateful this grace.

I also feel there is a danger in turning the preaching of the gospel into a test of one’s great decision making skills. I know I couldn’t hear until God opened my ears and so I can’t in good conscience see another one who can’t hear yet as just a horrible decision maker who could hear if they really just put their mind to it, and yet that’s how I see some people treat evangelism. Maybe I’m wrong about their motivation but it sometimes comes across focused more on “me and my choice” rather than “God and His grace.”

Bringing “Calvinism” into it comes with the idea that God chooses to make people who are fated to damnation and can not be saved and I might not fully understand their position but I don’t feel right about that.

To simplify things, I would say, who is ultimately responsible for your salvation - God, by his grace, or you, by your faith? And moreso, who is responsible for your faith? You, who couldn’t create your own mind, who couldn’t create your own heart, or God, who could not only create them but give them new life as well?

I can’t make a flawless and ironclad theological argument (and to be fair if anyone could have done that this wouldn’t be a question) but I lean toward God being the one responsible, with my faith being second to and reliant on His grace.

That doesn’t mean it’s impossible to resist God’s grace (as Calvinists say), but rather that our response to God’s grace is always second to receiving it. At the conversion or born again moment, it’s God who moves first.

And to be fair it also doesn’t mean it’s necessarily possible to resist God’s grace - on this matter I can’t give an answer claiming to know much of anything at all.

Romans 10:21 says, “But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”

This means that God desires them to be saved, and yet they are refusing His salvation. I mean every time you see in your Bible God getting upset at sin and or disobedience to God's commands is proof that man has free will to obey. If this was not the case, then we would read in the Bible about how God zaps men to obey Him perfectly. There would be no disobedience among His Elect and or chosen. If God is truly righteous and good, then He would naturally want perfect obedience from His people. But that's not what we read about. God gets angry at the wicked every day (Psalms 7:11). Why is He angry? Can't God just zap the wicked to see and to change their wills to follow Him? This is why Calvinism does not make any sense.

 

[HosannaHM]

[QUOTE]I can prove that to you right now.
Do you accept ALL the words in 2 Thessalonians 2:10?

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).​

It says that those who perish are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth... that they MIGHT BE SAVED. In Calvinism, there is no MIGHT BE SAVED. Yet, my Bible says it right in 2 Thessalonians 2:10. This verse alone should be enough for you and or anyone with basic reading skills to abandon the illogical belief of Calvinism. But beliefs that have been held on to for so long can be hard to let go of.[/QUOTE]

If you insist, I’ll go with you one more time with this. There are several verses that are very plain that Calvinists could quote too. Read the whole passage. It doesn’t take long to get to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 which says God “has chosen you from the beginning for salvation”. It says it very plainly



[QUOTE]Yes, you are ignoring them. You have not figured out a rational or logical way to explain them.[/QUOTE]

No I’m not. You’re picking up on certain things I’m saying and ignoring the calls for unity. You should study Whitefield and Wesley. It has nothing to do with not having logic and I don’t have to explain Calvinism to you on some silly thread on the internet. You have clearly communicated that you know what it is. I told you I don’t have a problem with disagreeing, and yet you keep pushing the issue toward me, seemingly wanting me to take up arms and argue. I don’t find it profitable- not the same as ignoring.



[QUOTE]Right, I don't like Calvinism because it's not in the Bible and it smears the good character of GOD.
But do not refuse to engage on my account. Surely you must realize that other readers must come across this thread reading and looking for help to defend the faith. Why not help them? So don't do it for me, but do it to help your fellow brethren. But I know why you don't do that. It's because Calvinism is not true. Only a isolated surface reading of Romans 9 can appear to sound like Calvinism. The rest of the Bible does not really sound like Calvinism in the slightest.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for making my point for me. First of all, it doesn’t do anyone any good to tell someone why they are saying something/or doing something. Please don’t tell me my motives for doing things. I’m not ignoring anything because “Calvinism isn’t true”. That’s absurd. We probably have the same Bible and a whole lot of it sounds reformed to me. So I guess your right and I’m wrong. Please brother. I would rather Christians read the Bible on their own as opposed to coming to this thread and seeing brothers and sisters take each out of context and bicker.



[QUOTE]Their is mental knowledge and being intelligent on certain things in life, but that does not mean a person's moral compass is operating correctly whereby they have wisdom and a proper understanding on biblical love, and justice. God does not punish people beyond what they are not capable of doing. Again, it's like kicking a dog who has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it is sick. It's just not fair justice or good to do such a thing. Even unbelievers can see that a master kicking it's dog for being sick is cruel and mean, and not loving.[/QUOTE]

Weird human reasoning again. God punished the Israelites for not being able to keep the whole Law and yet that’s what He required. So there’s that.


[QUOTE]Uh, your answer really does not resolve this problem in Calvinism. Again, you don't know how to resolve this dilema and so you just say that is how it is. Again, the Bible is not compatible with Calvinism because you cannot answer a simple problem that refutes Calvinism. So again, Jesus said repent or perish. But how can the elect perish? And how can the non-elect repent? If Jesus believed in Calvinism, he would say... repent my Elect. Repent, and heed the call. You Non-Elect over there... you will perish because God has chosen you for that fate. But did Jesus say that? No.[/QUOTE]

I gave vague reductionist answers on purpose because you wouldn’t like my theological answers any way. But I suppose I should do that for my random brothers on the internet? I’m talking to YOU, who clearly hates Calvinism.


[QUOTE]Sorry. That is not UNconditional Election. According to Calvinism: God does not elect based on any conditions within the individuals or vise versa. That's why it is called UNconditional Election. For if God changed His mind and He desired that Non-Elect who did not want to go to Heaven, to then go to Heaven, God could have chosen to Elect him and he would have no choice but to be forced to be saved and going to Heaven against his own previous will. But forced love is not love. Ask any loving married couple. They did not force each other to love one another. See, this is where Calvinism fails. It simply does not understand love and how that works. Love only can happen when two parties both agree of their own free will to love one another.[/QUOTE]

Or, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. Christ made His enemies His friends. Christ is the epitome of the loving example, and that was shown by what He endured for His church because of the joy set before Him. God loved children of us when we weren’t lovable. He took the first step.

In case it hasn’t been clarified enough, I don’t want to argue with you. If you wanna believe in free will, go ahead. I don’t have to agree with you and you don’t have to agree with me. It’s great. We must agree on this “Christ has died. Christ has risen. Christ will come again,”
I believe in a mighty God Who doesn’t just save His people from their sins, but also saves them from themselves. I believe He is powerful, gracious, and even as a reformed Christian, loving and altogether lovely. We serve a great God, brother

 

[HosannaHM]

Apologies- I’m replying on my phone and can’t seem to get the quotes right

 

[2BeholdHisGlory]

Apologies- I’m replying on my phone and can’t seem to get the quotes right

Thats strange it looks like you did it correctly, likely some kind of gliche maybe?

I dont know how anyone replies using a phone, I cant text lol

Don't worry bout it, its cool

 

[Ceallaigh]

I figured this was another "it's up to you" thread.

 

[Ceallaigh]

God does not force faith upon a person. The faith is the Bible. We gain faith by hearing the Bible. Our choice. For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (The Bible or the words of Jesus and His apostles).

Does God force sight upon us to see the words in the Bible? Or force the ability to hear upon us? Does God force the intelligence required to learn to read and understand what we're reading upon us?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Does God force sight upon us to see the words in the Bible? Or force the ability to hear upon us? Does God force the intelligence required to learn to read and understand what we're reading upon us?

Arminius argued that God predestines people to salvation based on foreseeing those who would believe in Him.

Calvin taught that God predestines people to salvation based purely and unconditionally on His own sovereign choice. Nothing that people do and nothing in them makes God choose them. Hence, why it is called Unconditional Election (Which is one of the points in Calvinism).

Now, as for your reference to how God provides for us eyes, ears, and a mind (Which is a choice God placed upon us):

Yes, it is true that God creates in man things like eyes, ears, intelligence (i.e. mind), etc. that we have no choice over, but these things are used to make free will decisions. A person can refuse to look, hear, and or think. It's their choice. Also, nowhere is the existence of eyes, ears, and a mind a violation of God's goodness or His morality (unlike in Unconditional Election in Calvinism). The reason why the word “forced” is used in a negative sense in Calvinism (i.e. Calvinism's Unconditional Election) is because they believe that God chooses (forces) some (based on no reason) to be saved and He chooses others to be tortured for all eternity (for no reason) just because that is simply His choice. In other words, God creates the majority of mankind for the express and sole purpose to suffer in hell because He chose that as their destiny (and these people had no say so in the matter about it to change that situation). They are merely being tortured horribly because it is God's choice for them to suffer for all eternity. But the Bible says God is love, and God is good. So this violates the very concept of what we know to be loving, and good. God is also a God of fair justice (See: Luke 12:47-48). Yet, Unconditional Election (in Calvinism) violates the concept of fair justice. This is why Calvinism is about as crazy as believing in a Flat Earth. Besides a surface reading of Romans 9, it is obvious from a normal reading of Scripture that Calvinism is simply not true. We don't see Jesus and the apostles speaking continually in Calvinistic terms like Calvinistic people of today do. Only a person who has learned Calvinism or who wants Calvinism to be true will enforce Calvinism into the Bible where it does not belong. For example: Jesus basically says for people to repent or perish (Luke 13:3). However, in Calvinism, the Elect cannot perish, and the UnElect cannot repent. So either Jesus is either ignorant of Calvinism or it simply is not true. I choose to believe that Jesus knew God's truth and therefore, this nullifies the concept of Calvinism.

I hope this helps you to better understand where I am coming from.

May you blessed in the Lord.

Source used for the first two paragraphs in this post:
Five Points of Calvinism | Simply Put

 

[HosannaHM]

Thats strange it looks like you did it correctly, likely some kind of gliche maybe?

I dont know how anyone replies using a phone, I cant text lol

Don't worry bout it, its cool

Here I bet I can do this one right thanks for that!