"Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..." Predestination and free will...?"

[Neogaia777]

This post came up in response to a question, or statement, that Faith is a gift...

"If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all this/that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time... Then...? He made you, you didn't make you... But were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

And feel free to insert other words that are things that are gifts, and if they are gifts, or whether they were based on a choice or something we did or thought of or did or decided that came from us, ourselves... And discuss how if something is a free gift, then it is not based on a choice or by anything we did, and really, may have little to nothing to do with us really...

But basically, a gift can not be a choice of ours,

Heck the whole nature of a gift is that is given freely by someone giving something freely and free of charge, to someone else, for no reason sometimes, as it pertains to God anyway... Giver and recipient, and the recipient does nothing, or is supposed to have done nothing when it comes to God, but that eliminates choice, and then, if choice is eliminated, then, were not responsible for anything, were basically all innocent, and beyond that, we may not even be alive, not really, but nothing more than automatons...

Comments...?

God Bless!

 

[Albion]

This post came up in response to a question, or statement, that Faith is a gift...

"If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all this/that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time... Then...? He made you, you didn't make you... But were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

As I read this, it appears that the writer is mixing up being predestined to salvation (which is the usual way the term is used) with God making a choice among us mortals for other purposes or in other ways..

 

[Tree of Life]

It's a good question. I would say that faith is a gift which quickly inspires many faithful choices. Faith is planted in our heart by God (Ephesians 2:8-10). But faith is accompanied and expressed by what Paul calls "the obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5). What is faith internally is always expressed as obedience externally (James 2:18).

It could also be said that the faith that God has planted within us inspires us to act faithfully, which in turn results in greater experiences of God, which in turn engenders more faith in our hearts. Faith multiples itself in that way.

But though we are not totally passive in the life of faith, all of it must be credited to God as the author and perfecter of faith (Hebrews 12:2).

 

[Neogaia777]

Is there an middle ground here, like some things being predestined and other things, not and it's kinda mixed together in a way that only God knows...?

 

[Tree of Life]

Is there an middle ground here, like some things being predestined and other things, not and it's kinda mixed together in a way that only God knows...?

I don't think that the Bible leads us to ask such questions. Our minds are better occupied worrying about other things.

 

[Neogaia777]

It's a good question. I would say that faith is a gift which quickly inspires many faithful choices. Faith is planted in our heart by God (Ephesians 2:8-10). But faith is accompanied and expressed by what Paul calls "the obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5). What is faith internally is always expressed as obedience externally (James 2:18).

It could also be said that the faith that God has planted within us inspires us to act faithfully, which in turn results in greater experiences of God, which in turn engenders more faith in our hearts. Faith multiples itself in that way.

But though we are not totally passive in the life of faith, all of it must be credited to God as the author and perfecter of faith (Hebrews 12:2).

God is our source of inspiration...? Inspires us...? The process of inspiration...?

How can it not be that if all of it is accredited to God, then all of it must be accredited to God, so to speak, and that if all of it is to truly 100% be all accredited to God, then we have no choice and are no better than automatons...

Is what I'm saying...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I don't think that the Bible leads us to ask such questions. Our minds are better occupied worrying about other things.

Your no fun...

God Bless!

 

[Albion]

God is our source of inspiration...? Inspires us...? The process of inspiration...?

How can it not be that if all of it is accredited to God, then all of it must be accredited to God, so to speak, and that if all of it is to truly 100% be all accredited to God, then we have no choice and are no better than automatons...

Is what I'm saying...

God Bless!

It is only the gift of saving faith that is being credited to God. You still have free choice in almost everything else you do, just not on whether or not to have faith.

 

[Neogaia777]

It is only the gift of saving faith that is being credited to God. You still have free choice in almost everything else you do, just not on whether or not to have faith.

So all those who belong to him, we don't have any choice in that...? Or also, you'd have to say, do not have a choice if we do not belong to him either...

 

[Matisyahu8898]

I would have to agree with Paul, when he says that salvation is a free gift.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 6:23 ESV
But is not a gift in the way you are mentioning it--that only those that grace is given, can accept it. On the contrary, Paul tells Timothy, "...who (God) desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
1 Timothy 2:4 ESV
Peter back this up:
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
2 Peter 3:9 NIV
If God wants us all in heaven with Him, then why aren't we all there? The only answer I see is that it's a choice given to us. But it is not by anything we've done to earn it, only accept it.
In Christ,
Matt

 

[Neogaia777]

It is only the gift of saving faith that is being credited to God. You still have free choice in almost everything else you do, just not on whether or not to have faith.

What about salvation, sanctification, peace, joy, love, hope... Any of the gifts due to us at all...?

 

[Albion]

So all those who belong to him, we don't have any choice in that...?

Some say yes and some say no, but that's a separate issue. What is not in doubt is that we are not automatons if God chooses who among us will receive faith.

 

[Wordkeeper]

This post came up in response to a question, or statement, that Faith is a gift...

"If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all this/that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time... Then...? He made you, you didn't make you... But were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

And feel free to insert other words that are things that are gifts, and if they are gifts, or whether they were based on a choice or something we did or thought of or did or decided that came from us, ourselves... And discuss how if something is a free gift, then it is not based on a choice or by anything we did, and really, may have little to nothing to do with us really...

But basically, a gift can not be a choice of ours,

Heck the whole nature of a gift is that is given freely by someone giving something freely and free of charge, to someone else, for no reason sometimes, as it pertains to God anyway... Giver and recipient, and the recipient does nothing, or is supposed to have done nothing when it comes to God, but that eliminates choice, and then, if choice is eliminated, then, were not responsible for anything, were basically all innocent, and beyond that, we may not even be alive, not really, but nothing more than automatons...

Comments...?

God Bless!

The word “faith” is often mistranslated as “belief” when actually in the ANE, the ancient near east, it was used to mean “loyalty”.


Theo Geek: The Patron-Client system and Hebrews 11:1


Quote
Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (NRSV)


That is a rather horrible translation

The words "faith" (faithfulness) and "hoped" (expected), are technical terms in the Patron-Client system. As noted before, "faithfulness" denotes the client's loyalty to their patron (and also the patron's loyalty to the client). "Expect" denotes the hope of future favours. A client could validly expect favours from their Patron if they had been faithful to their Patron and served them well. Thus, in the first half of the verse we actually just have a basic statement about how the Patron-Client system works: If you are faithful you can expect favours. That's it. It's a summary of how a part of their every-day life society worked. The second half of the verse is just saying the same thing a different way: Our faithfulness testifies that we will receive favours that we haven't yet gotten (that we do not yet "see").

Historically this verse has been a minefield for people arguing over the definiton of faithfulness. A huge amount of stuff has been written trying to nail down precisely what each of the words in the sentence meant in an effort to get a precise definition of "faith" out of it. (Unfortunately this didn't work too well as a few of the words in the sentence have a variety of translation possibilities) But as a result of these efforts a lot of people are convinced that the Bible here defines faith as belief in things we can't see. As a result of theologians' sterling efforts over the centuries in mining the bible for sentences such as this one they have had great fun in formulating exactly what it means to have "faith". "Faith" had become an almost-magical word, set apart from everyday life.

That's one of the reasons, I suspect, that theologians have been relatively slow to pick up on the findings of the social sciences. The discovery of how the word "faithfulness" was actually used in the day-to-day life of the first century AD Mediterranean world has made hundreds of years of theological discussions worthless, and a lot of people don't like to let mere facts or evidence get in the way of their ideas and traditions. [Maybe I'm being too harsh, after all, the first book on the subject of linking Social Sciences with NT exegesis was only in 1981, and it was pretty badly written]

Anyway, the take home lesson is:
Next time you're reading the bible and you see the words "faith" or "belief" read "faithfulness" instead and think "Patron-Client system = faithfulness repaid with favours". (Of course the result won't make much sense because it won't fit with how the translators have translated the rest of the sentence)

A great rule to keep in mind is this: Faithfulness is targeted at people, belief is targeted at ideas. You can be committed to a person, or committed to an idea. But talking about faithfulness to an idea, or belief in a person is nonsense.


Bottomline, the teaching that loyalty is a gift is wrong. God doesn't choose persons and overcome their free will and make them loyal.

 

[GTW27]

Faith is a Gift. This Gift was given the same time He enters in, or at the same time a person is born from above. The world has not this gift because they have not Him nor do they know Him. To me the whole world can say that God doesn't exist but I say, Yes He does and that He loves you and cares for you more than you can ever imagine.

 

[Neogaia777]

Some say yes and some say no, but that's a separate issue. What is not in doubt is that we are not automatons if God chooses who among us will receive faith.

Why not, if God predestined it or a thing...?

 

[1stcenturylady]

I'm about to go to bed so have not read any of the posts, even the OP, just scanned them a little bit to see the jest of the discussion.

There are two kinds of faith. One by the Father, and the other by the Spirit. Everyone on earth is given a measure of faith by the Father. In other words everyone has the ability to accept or reject Christ by their free will. Rejection of Christ is when they love the darkness more than following God.

But Romans 10:17 says, " So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." The meaning of the word, "word," is rhema, the spoken word, and the speaker is God. This has to do with the "hearing" gifts of the Spirit. When you receive a spoken rhema from God, along with it comes the gift of faith, that you believe what He said will come to pass.

Predestination is another subject entirely. Note, the Jews were predestined by God to be the chosen nation. That did not mean they all would be saved. Just something to think about. Foreknowledge, is more in line with God knowing who will love and follow Him out of their own free will, and who will just be stiff-necked and reject Him. Predestination has been badly misunderstood into some robot culture.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This post came up in response to a question, or statement, that Faith is a gift...

"If faith is a gift, and everything we have and everything we are, was all a choice by God and not us, and he chose some and not others, and made us all this/that way, from the time were born or from the beginning of time... Then...? He made you, you didn't make you... But were some predestined for good, and all was predestined by God, then we never had any nor have a choice, or choices basically, and if all is a gift from God, basically means he made or predestined you to have that gift, so you cannot take credit...

Don't we have to be able to attain to or attribute, or contribute, something that came from us, and was our doing, our choice, or were no better than automatons, right...?

I mean you have to have a choice, some has to come from you contribute, that is you and yours, in order to be, and if God predestined everything, and all is a gift, that requires no effort or contribution or choice on our part, If God predestined all, than were no better than non-thinking, non-conscious lifeforms, or automatons who are just an imitation of life, but are not even conscious beings, right..?

Predestination and Free-will...?

What am I trying to say, "Is faith a gift, or a choice...?, Cause it cannot be both..."

And feel free to insert other words that are things that are gifts, and if they are gifts, or whether they were based on a choice or something we did or thought of or did or decided that came from us, ourselves... And discuss how if something is a free gift, then it is not based on a choice or by anything we did, and really, may have little to nothing to do with us really...

But basically, a gift can not be a choice of ours,

Heck the whole nature of a gift is that is given freely by someone giving something freely and free of charge, to someone else, for no reason sometimes, as it pertains to God anyway... Giver and recipient, and the recipient does nothing, or is supposed to have done nothing when it comes to God, but that eliminates choice, and then, if choice is eliminated, then, were not responsible for anything, were basically all innocent, and beyond that, we may not even be alive, not really, but nothing more than automatons...

Comments...?

God Bless!

Saving faith is a work of the Holy Spirit. We cannot choose to have saving faith. We can choose to turn to Christ, but we need to mean serious business about repenting of our sins and a determination to place our trust securely in Christ before God will see that our profession of Christianity is serious enough to warrant the Holy Spirit doing the work of real repentance in our hearts and to give us saving faith that will bring the assurance of salvation.

Many professed conversions to Christ in all our churches rarely last for six months. Why is this? It is because of the "easy believerism" that is preached instead of the real gospel of Christ. People are told just to pray a sinners prayer, join a church and they will be saved. What happens is that their conversion is not a conversion at all. It is just a superficial "getting" of the Christian "religion", and when the going gets tough they leave the church and Christ and say it is all a fraud. The problem is that their profession of Christianity is the fraud, because they just went through the outward motions instead of really getting to grips with God so that He could do the work in their hearts. The Scripture says that with the heart man believes on Christ and with his mouth he confesses his belief. What happens in many case is that it is just with the mouth, while the heart remains unchanged. "Conversion" for many is just trying out Christianity to see if it works for them, and when they encounter persecution or tough times, they walk away. Jesus told a parable about this when He spoke of the sower and the seed.

Most professions of Christianity are like the seed that falls on shallow soil. They spring up quickly and make a great show of faith, but as quickly wither away when the heat goes on. The problem is the easy believerism teaching that tells people, "Just receive Christ and everything will be good and rosy". There is no real preaching of deep repentance and holiness in a lot of the preaching. Gospel preachers preach grace and love, and leave out preaching the law and standards of God that reveals a person's sinfulness and gives the strong conviction of sin that would cause a person to desperately seek Christ or be lost. Preachers tend to teach that God is so loving that He will not condemn folk to an eternal hell, and that anyone who preaches law, repentance, holiness, and the possibility of an eternal hell for rejecting Christ is accused of preaching law instead of grace and scaring people into the kingdom of God.

Although it is the goodness of God that leads sinners to repentance, all through Scripture there are the serious warnings of eternal judgment to those who reject Christ. It is the Law that brings a sinner to realise that he is a sinner, falling short of God's standards, and to drive them to Christ for mercy and salvation. Once they have genuinely repented, then they are set free from the law of sin and death. But unbelievers need to know that because they are sinners, they are rebels against God and that they are on the road to eternal destruction. It is possible that many so called gospel preaches don't know what true repentance really is. Perhaps our churches, including Pentecostal and Charismatic ones are actually backslidden and preach an insipid and weak "gospel" that is no gospel at all!

 

[Matisyahu8898]

Saving faith is a work of the Holy Spirit. We cannot choose to have saving faith. We can choose to turn to Christ, but we need to mean serious business about repenting of our sins and a determination to place our trust securely in Christ before God will see that our profession of Christianity is serious enough to warrant the Holy Spirit doing the work of real repentance in our hearts and to give us saving faith that will bring the assurance of salvation.

Many professed conversions to Christ in all our churches rarely last for six months. Why is this? It is because of the "easy believerism" that is preached instead of the real gospel of Christ. People are told just to pray a sinners prayer, join a church and they will be saved. What happens is that their conversion is not a conversion at all. It is just a superficial "getting" of the Christian "religion", and when the going gets tough they leave the church and Christ and say it is all a fraud. The problem is that their profession of Christianity is the fraud, because they just went through the outward motions instead of really getting to grips with God so that He could do the work in their hearts. The Scripture says that with the heart man believes on Christ and with his mouth he confesses his belief. What happens in many case is that it is just with the mouth, while the heart remains unchanged. "Conversion" for many is just trying out Christianity to see if it works for them, and when they encounter persecution or tough times, they walk away. Jesus told a parable about this when He spoke of the sower and the seed.

Most professions of Christianity are like the seed that falls on shallow soil. They spring up quickly and make a great show of faith, but as quickly wither away when the heat goes on. The problem is the easy believerism teaching that tells people, "Just receive Christ and everything will be good and rosy". There is no real preaching of deep repentance and holiness in a lot of the preaching. Gospel preachers preach grace and love, and leave out preaching the law and standards of God that reveals a person's sinfulness and gives the strong conviction of sin that would cause a person to desperately seek Christ or be lost. Preachers tend to teach that God is so loving that He will not condemn folk to an eternal hell, and that anyone who preaches law, repentance, holiness, and the possibility of an eternal hell for rejecting Christ is accused of preaching law instead of grace and scaring people into the kingdom of God.

Although it is the goodness of God that leads sinners to repentance, all through Scripture there are the serious warnings of eternal judgment to those who reject Christ. It is the Law that brings a sinner to realise that he is a sinner, falling short of God's standards, and to drive them to Christ for mercy and salvation. Once they have genuinely repented, then they are set free from the law of sin and death. But unbelievers need to know that because they are sinners, they are rebels against God and that they are on the road to eternal destruction. It is possible that many so called gospel preaches don't know what true repentance really is. Perhaps our churches, including Pentecostal and Charismatic ones are actually backslidden and preach an insipid and weak "gospel" that is no gospel at all!

Have you heard of Ray Comfort? I think he's the best Evangelist I've ever seen. He always lays out the Law of God to expose someone's sinful heart, but, of course, he never leaves out the greatest, most important part, the Good News of Jesus' life and sacrifice. He always very logically presents the Gospel in a clear way that a child could understand it, but is still powerful enough to break through a heart of stone. Where many preachers fail to understand the Gospel, Ray Comfort sure understands it, and preaches like there's no tomorrow! If you think that there aren't any good Evangelists left, look him up.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Have you heard of Ray Comfort? I think he's the best Evangelist I've ever seen. He always lays out the Law of God to expose someone's sinful heart, but, of course, he never leaves out the greatest, most important part, the Good News of Jesus' life and sacrifice. He always very logically presents the Gospel in a clear way that a child could understand it, but is still powerful enough to break through a heart of stone. Where many preachers fail to understand the Gospel, Ray Comfort sure understands it, and preaches like there's no tomorrow! If you think that there aren't any good Evangelists left, look him up.

I know of him and have no doubt that he is an effective evangelist. The fruit of a man's evangelistic ministry is that the majority of his converts are still going on for the Lord years later and are stable, effective church members, serving in the Lord in various ministries of their own.

 

[sdowney717]

Unless you are born again FIRST, you will not believe in Christ.
That you can see -perceive the kingdom of God, who Christ truly is you must first be born of God, then you are a part of the family of God and God the Father will teach you the truth and you will know the truth and be saved.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

See here does NOT mean enter, it means to perceive, to turn your attention, to notice, etc...

the word see, G1492, look at what see means
εἴδω
Transliteration
eidō
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Many people confuse what to be born again really means. All who are born again are born of God and will eventually confess belief in Christ as they are taught by the Holy Spirit. And only after they believe are they sealed.
Ephesians 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

the world will not receive Christ as Lord and be saved, nor do jews by natural birth. Why do people receive Christ? , v13 they were born of God first. It is why Christ said you must be granted to know Him by the Father or you will not believe. It is why Christ says all those the Father gives Him will have eternal life, so then your salvation is of God, not of yourselves, being the gift of God entirely.
John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”


John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 5 New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.

1 John 5 English Standard Version (ESV)
5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.