LDS Is faith a DIY achievement?

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,506
6,394
Midwest
✟78,427.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Forgiveness, mercy, and grace, the free gift of God will be given to those who keep the commandments:

(Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

The ability to love God comes from God to those He saves.

1 John 4
19 We love him, because he FIRST loved us.

His grace is not deserved.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
The ability to love God comes from God to those He saves.

1 John 4
19 We love him, because he FIRST loved us.

His grace is not deserved.
The Bible is very clear about who LOVES God:

(New Testament | John 14:21)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

It is also clear about who does not LOVE God:

(New Testament | John 14:24)

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

We all have the ability to LOVE God and keep His commandments if we choose to do it. It is a choice we make and by that choice we can also know God or not know Him:

(Old Testament | Joshua 24:15 - 17)

5 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;
17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:


(New Testament | 1 John 2:3 - 5)

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
We believe that grace is a gift given by Jesus Christ paid for by the atonement and given to those who LOVE Him by keeping the commandments:

(Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

(New Testament | Jude 1:21)

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

Lately I've had to deal with flat earthers who, even when shown photographic evidence to the contrary of what they believe, still insist on being obviously wrong.

Why am I bringing this up? I'll let others figure that out.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Agree
Reactions: 1 person
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Lately I've had to deal with flat earthers who, even when shown photographic evidence to the contrary of what they believe, still insist on being obviously wrong.

Why am I bringing this up? I'll let others figure that out.

-CryptoLutheran
The Bible is very clear (see post 62) that God wants us to keep the commandments. That being said keeping the commandments involves doing works because we can not LOVE our neighbor as ourselves without works. It is our duty to keep the commandments:

(New Testament | Luke 17:10)

10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

So we are saved by grace after we have done that which was our duty to do. We are not saved by works, neither are we saved without works.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
The ones who love Him abandon and resist false teachings. That is obedience.
Yes they do. And they keep the commandments:

(New Testament | John 14:21)

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The Bible is very clear (see post 62) that God wants us to keep the commandments. That being said keeping the commandments involves doing works because we can not LOVE our neighbor as ourselves without works. It is our duty to keep the commandments:

(New Testament | Luke 17:10)

10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

So we are saved by grace after we have done that which was our duty to do. We are not saved by works, neither are we saved without works.

I'm starting to wonder if you are actually comprehending some of the responses to your posts. Because it really seems like talking to a brick wall.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
I'm starting to wonder if you are actually comprehending some of the responses to your posts. Because it really seems like talking to a brick wall.

-CryptoLutheran
I suspect it is like talking to a brick wall and I take that as a compliment. The main theme of the Bible is to keep the commandments. The greatest promises in the Bible are to those who keep the commandments. In order to become like God we need to keep the commandments. In order to know God we need to keep the commandments. In order to be a friend to Jesus Christ (He died for His friends) or to love Him we need to keep the commandments. The whole duty of man is to keep the commandments.

72 Bible verses about Keep The Commandments
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,341
26,785
Pacific Northwest
✟728,115.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I suspect it is like talking to a brick wall and I take that as a compliment.

How can one challenge themselves, be open to correction, or learn anything if rather than engaging an idea, one simply closes up and merely parrots learned talking points?

Perhaps a more meaningful question: Is there anything you can learn from those from outside of your church?

I ask this, because at least as it pertains to the majority of Christians--it doesn't matter our background, our tradition, our denomination, etc--while we may be committed to those traditions by our conviction, there is still going to be a willingness and an openness to other ideas. We may consider those ideas, and reject them, or we may consider those ideas and recognize some value in them but not adopt them completely, or we may find that we have to modify previously held notions to better adapt to what is, simply, a more truthful idea.

I am a Lutheran. Naturally I confess the Lutheran Confessions. However, neither Lutheranism as a theological tradition, nor does my specific church, the ELCA, demand uncritical acceptance of Lutheran talking points. My acceptance of Lutheran confessional theology is not based upon an authoritarian model, but rather on a confessional model. "We believe, here is why we believe," with the open invitation to "come and see". I have been convinced, in my own conscience, of the truthfulness of this confession. Further, not all things are equal; the Lutheran Confessions speak of the Papacy as "antichrist", as a Lutheran am I required to believe this? Some might say yes, but no such requirement is imposed on me. I can, instead, recognize the historical context of this rather harsh language, and then evaluate if I think that this must be the case: That the specific institution of the papacy is uniquely the fulfillment of the eschatological idea of "the antichrist". Personally, no I don't believe that. I do, however, regard all which acts in opposition to Christ and His Gospel to be rightly called antichrist. To that end, yes, I would agree that in the historical context of the Reformation, the authoritarian opposition from the Roman See was acting as antichrist, not because the institution is itself eschatologically antichrist, but because anything can be antichrist when it opposes Christ. I merely bring this particular point as but an example.

Further, though I am Lutheran I do not close myself off from the larger Christian community, as though non-Lutherans have nothing of value to say or contribute to matters of faith. Because of course they do. And I have benefited frequently from non-Lutheran sources--Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant. Members of these forums have frequently been highly valuable, by their challenging me, by their providing insight to things I had not considered, by being better informed on many things I myself have little to no knowledge about. I am not an island, neither as a Lutheran am I trapped behind Lutheran walls.

In fact, without this diverse and multifaceted experience I wouldn't be a Lutheran at all. And, while I found opposition from some sectors as I began to question and challenge my own beliefs early on, I was also encouraged by many. That encouragement was important, that the pursuit of truth is valid, and shouldn't be disparaged simply because it questions the status quo.

So, my question: As a Mormon are you allowed this freedom of thought? Is there anything of meaningful value that you can learn from those outside of your religious space? Is freedom of thought and exploration encouraged or discouraged? And do you think it should be encouraged? Or discouraged? Can one still be a faithful Mormon even if one does not accept, unquestioningly, the pronouncements of those at the top? Can a Mormon prophet be challenged? Questioned? Can the Mormon apostles be challenged? Is there freedom of faith? Freedom of thought? Freedom of inquiry?

Are you allowed to hear the things I and others have been saying in these threads, and actually consider that perhaps there's some veracity to them? Or are you expected to shut down, close your mind, and merely parrot a script?

This is not mockery, this is sincere inquiry on my part.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
How can one challenge themselves, be open to correction, or learn anything if rather than engaging an idea, one simply closes up and merely parrots learned talking points?

Perhaps a more meaningful question: Is there anything you can learn from those from outside of your church?

I ask this, because at least as it pertains to the majority of Christians--it doesn't matter our background, our tradition, our denomination, etc--while we may be committed to those traditions by our conviction, there is still going to be a willingness and an openness to other ideas. We may consider those ideas, and reject them, or we may consider those ideas and recognize some value in them but not adopt them completely, or we may find that we have to modify previously held notions to better adapt to what is, simply, a more truthful idea.

I am a Lutheran. Naturally I confess the Lutheran Confessions. However, neither Lutheranism as a theological tradition, nor does my specific church, the ELCA, demand uncritical acceptance of Lutheran talking points. My acceptance of Lutheran confessional theology is not based upon an authoritarian model, but rather on a confessional model. "We believe, here is why we believe," with the open invitation to "come and see". I have been convinced, in my own conscience, of the truthfulness of this confession. Further, not all things are equal; the Lutheran Confessions speak of the Papacy as "antichrist", as a Lutheran am I required to believe this? Some might say yes, but no such requirement is imposed on me. I can, instead, recognize the historical context of this rather harsh language, and then evaluate if I think that this must be the case: That the specific institution of the papacy is uniquely the fulfillment of the eschatological idea of "the antichrist". Personally, no I don't believe that. I do, however, regard all which acts in opposition to Christ and His Gospel to be rightly called antichrist. To that end, yes, I would agree that in the historical context of the Reformation, the authoritarian opposition from the Roman See was acting as antichrist, not because the institution is itself eschatologically antichrist, but because anything can be antichrist when it opposes Christ. I merely bring this particular point as but an example.

Further, though I am Lutheran I do not close myself off from the larger Christian community, as though non-Lutherans have nothing of value to say or contribute to matters of faith. Because of course they do. And I have benefited frequently from non-Lutheran sources--Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, and Protestant. Members of these forums have frequently been highly valuable, by their challenging me, by their providing insight to things I had not considered, by being better informed on many things I myself have little to no knowledge about. I am not an island, neither as a Lutheran am I trapped behind Lutheran walls.

In fact, without this diverse and multifaceted experience I wouldn't be a Lutheran at all. And, while I found opposition from some sectors as I began to question and challenge my own beliefs early on, I was also encouraged by many. That encouragement was important, that the pursuit of truth is valid, and shouldn't be disparaged simply because it questions the status quo.

So, my question: As a Mormon are you allowed this freedom of thought? Is there anything of meaningful value that you can learn from those outside of your religious space? Is freedom of thought and exploration encouraged or discouraged? And do you think it should be encouraged? Or discouraged? Can one still be a faithful Mormon even if one does not accept, unquestioningly, the pronouncements of those at the top? Can a Mormon prophet be challenged? Questioned? Can the Mormon apostles be challenged? Is there freedom of faith? Freedom of thought? Freedom of inquiry?

Are you allowed to hear the things I and others have been saying in these threads, and actually consider that perhaps there's some veracity to them? Or are you expected to shut down, close your mind, and merely parrot a script?

This is not mockery, this is sincere inquiry on my part.

-CryptoLutheran
Thank you first for your reply. Yes members of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints are allowed freedom of thought. We are not forced to do anything. There is a lot of meaningful value I have gleaned from people outside of my religion. Not all of my friends, school teachers, family, or work mates were LDS. I have also learned many things about the gospel from my years on different forums. That being said following Jesus Christ and His teachings should be of paramount importance in our lives. Following a prophet of God is also important. People who challenge God or His prophets are asking for trouble. However neither God or His prophets will ever lead us astray. We have been shown the way to know that which is of God and that which is not of God:

(Book of Mormon | Moroni 7:12 - 24)

12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged.
19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.
20 And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?
21 And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.
22 For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.
23 And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come.
24 And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.

I believe that this is the litmus test for a true prophet of God. I have been shown beyond any shadow of a doubt that The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is God's true church so perhaps I tend to come over as very bull headed or perhaps a fanatic. If so I apologize. I do LOVE God and I know that He LOVES each and every one of us and wants us to LOVE each other.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,506
6,394
Midwest
✟78,427.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The Bible is very clear (see post 62) that God wants us to keep the commandments. That being said keeping the commandments involves doing works because we can not LOVE our neighbor as ourselves without works. It is our duty to keep the commandments:

(New Testament | Luke 17:10)

10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

So we are saved by grace after we have done that which was our duty to do. We are not saved by works, neither are we saved without works.
That doesn't answer the question:

"Is faith a DYI achievement?"
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
That doesn't answer the question:

"Is faith a DYI achievement?"
Our faith increases through our works and beliefs:

(New Testament | James 2:17 - 26)

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Once we learn the ways of righteousness and follow the in those ways, it is God working in us because we are following Him through faith.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,506
6,394
Midwest
✟78,427.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Our faith increases through our works and beliefs:

...Once we learn the ways of righteousness and follow the in those ways, it is God working in us because we are following Him through faith.

No one can learn and understand spiritual things without faith. We can't earn faith or merit it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
And dead faith isn't faith. Therefore, men can see the difference between faith and lack of faith.
Thereby we see that through works we have faith:

(New Testament | Revelation 2:19)

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
 
Upvote 0

Rescued One

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me
Dec 12, 2002
35,506
6,394
Midwest
✟78,427.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Thereby we see that through works we have faith:

(New Testament | Revelation 2:19)

19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

So you're saying you have to earn faith.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
So you're saying you have to earn faith.
It is more than just believing, the devils believe. Do they have faith?
(New Testament | Hebrews 11:1 - 6)

1 NOW faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums