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Featured LDS Is faith a DIY achievement?

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, May 28, 2019.

  1. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    People prayed to Jesus when He visited the Americas:
    (Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 19:18)

    18 And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.
     
  2. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Just so we're clear, in Ephesians 2:8 "faith" is in the genitive case, it is the thing which is "the gift of God", whereas grace is in the dative case, it is the indirect object; "saved" here is a verb in the perfect tense, i.e. it is a completed action, "have been saved".

    τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι
    "For by grace you have been saved"

    διὰ τῆς πίστεως
    "through faith"

    καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν
    "and this not from yourselves" the "this" here links back to πίστεως, "faith"

    θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον
    "the gift of God"

    The Greek makes it fairly clear that "faith" is God's gift; grace is what has accomplished the saving, this has been accomplished through the gift of faith which is from God and not ourselves.

    Unsurprising, therefore, that this has been the understanding of this text since antiquity, especially by those who are intimately familiar with the Greek, such as St. John Chrysostom,

    "Neither is faith, he means, 'of ourselves.' Because had He not come, had He not called us, how had we been able to believe? For 'how,' says he, 'shall they believe, unless they hear?' So that the work of faith itself is not our own." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 4 on Ephesians

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  3. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    The KJV has it this way:

    (New Testament | Ephesians 2:8)

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    While there are different ways to look at it, it seems to me that grace is the gift and not faith. As I have said before we are saved by grace and not by works, neither are we saved without works:

    (New Testament | James 2:14 - 17)

    14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    Faith must be earned or it is dead.
     
  4. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You are right, we pray to God the Father in the name of Jesus.
     
  5. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Gift or no gift, if you do not nourish your faith with good works that gift will whither away and die.
     
  6. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Thanks.
     
  7. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    The faith is nourished by God. It doesn't depend on us.

    Luke 17
    5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.

    They knew the source of their faith wasn’t from themselves. And God's gifts, contrary to Mormonism, don't wither away. We have the Holy Spirit Who abides with us forever. Furthermore, good works are the result of the faith we've been given.

    James 1:17
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    John 14
    16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    1 Corinthians 1:9
    God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

    2 Thessalonians 3:3
    But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

    I trust my God and His word.
     
  8. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    The apostles weren't given faith:
    (New Testament | Luke 17:5 - 10)

    5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
    6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
    7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
    8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
    9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
    10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

    James 1:17
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    Where does this say faith is a gift? Same with the other scriptures you posted? Living faith is the result of works:

    (New Testament | James 2:17)

    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
     
  9. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    How much faith did they have? Can your faith uproot a tree and plant it in the sea? They asked to have their faith increased. That means they already had some faith. What that does NOT say is "The apostles weren't given faith."

    Luke 10
    38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. 39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. 40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. 41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: 42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

    There are different ways of serving and the Holy Spirit leads us.


    Exactly, without Him we can do nothing. We love Him so we obey.

    We can't buy faith or the Holy Spirit. We can't go out and grab it. We can't will it to be ours.

    Romans 9:16
    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    Galatians 5
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


    No, those who have no faith don't give a hoot about pleasing Christ.

    God's gifts are perfect. Dead faith isn't one of them.

    Read post 42:
    Is faith a DIY acheivement?
     
  10. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Per Mormonism, all blessings must be earned.

    D&C 130:20-21 states: There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated-- And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
     
  11. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    I see nothing here saying faith is a gift from God. I do know that without faith we can't please Him:

    (New Testament | Hebrews 11:6)

    6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
     
  12. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Blessings are earned, but forgiveness is a gift paid for by the atonement.
     
  13. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Not according to the grammar of text it's not. Further, to say that grace is the gift is, on some level, an absurd and silly thing.

    If I said, "Bob's generosity was immense, he gave Susan a million dollars." we would readily recognize that generosity isn't what Bob gave Susan, generosity is what Bob has and is why Bob gave Susan a million dollars.

    God's grace is what He has and is toward us, it isn't a commutable thing, but a quality of God. Grace is the gift-givingness of God. The gifts are inherently grace because grace is the gift-givingness, the generosity, the loving-kindness, the disposition of God toward us which is kind, generous, and free. All gifts are grace, but grace itself is not a discrete gift; all gifts are grace because grace is inherently gift-giving itself. We can, therefore, say that faith is of the grace of God, or that faith is a grace. Because, again, grace itself is the gift-givingness, generosity, outward and dispensed kindness.

    In the Palamist theological view grace is, in fact, God Himself: God-in-action. God's Energies are not merely created effects, but are uncreated because God's Energies (that is, God's works and actions) are God Himself. This is part of the old debate between Gregory Palamas and Barlaam and thus one of the major disputes between what is now Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. For Palamas when God acts it is not merely a created effect, but God Himself. God's grace is not a thing independent of God, but God Himself. Hence Catholicism can speak of God's created grace(s), but Orthodoxy cannot.

    A Lutheran response to this dispute is likely to side a bit more with Palamas here, for Lutherans (and many other Protestants) grace is not some discrete thing, but is the very kind, fatherly, and friendly disposition of God toward us, toward sinners, in Jesus Christ. Hence, as I said, God's grace is what He has and is toward us, not a commutable thing, but fundamentally God Himself toward us in Christ. Hence the gift-givingness of God, the generosity of God, God-pouring-forth-Himself. In love, in kindness, in abandonment of Himself for the least and most awful of us. Because that is who and what God is in Christ.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  14. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    We believe that grace is a gift given by Jesus Christ paid for by the atonement and given to those who LOVE Him by keeping the commandments:

    (Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)

    6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    (New Testament | Jude 1:21)

    21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
     
  15. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I'll pray that He opens your eyes.


    I know that, too.
     
  16. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Per Mormonism:
    Forgiveness is a blessing that has to be earned. Grace also has to be earned.
     
  17. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    "Salvation is not a gift of God which comes to man through the decree of Deity or through the sacramental action of the Church. It is a gift of God which man must work diligently to achieve."
    Lowell L. Bennion, The Religion of the Latter-day Saints, p. 160
     
  18. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Wrong no amount of works could earn grace or forgiveness. We are not saved by works, neither are we saved without them:

    (New Testament | Luke 17:9 - 10)

    9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
    10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

    (New Testament | John 14:21)

    21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
     
  19. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Dead faith saves no one:
    (New Testament | James 2:14 - 20)

    14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
    15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
    16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
    17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
    18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    Forgiveness, mercy, and grace, the free gift of God will be given to those who keep the commandments:

    (Old Testament | Exodus 20:6)

    6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    (Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

    10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  20. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Someone can lie and claim to have faith; that doesn't mean he told the truth.

    By their fruits ye shall know them. No faith results in no fruit that endures. God is perfectly aware of who He is saving; He makes that fruit endure.

    2 Thessalonians 3:3
    But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

     
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