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Featured Is Ezekiel 38 imminent?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by rockytopva, Jul 27, 2017.

  1. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    (continued from Post 21)


    There are also less obvious reasons for the conclusion that Ezekiel 38 and 39 take place after Daniel’s seventieth week. The first of these is that throughout this prophecy the land and the people are called Israel, not Judah. In prophecies about suffering in the land during Daniel’s seventieth week, the word Israel is never used. This is because only Judah will be in the land during that seventieth week. All Israel will not be in the land until Messiah comes.

    We know this for the following reasons:

    In Ezekiel 36:10, the Lord tells the “mountains of Israel” (verse 8) that He “will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it.” Again, in Micah 2:12, the Lord says “I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together like sheep of the fold.” It is clear that this has not yet happened, for there are still Jews elsewhere in the world. But when will it happen?

    We see this in Ezekiel 20:33-38, where we read: “‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,’ says the Lord GOD.
    “‘I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.’”

    When the Lord brings Israel “out from the peoples” and gathers them “out of the countries” where they “are scattered,” He will plead His case with them “face to face,” Just as He did with their fathers ”in the wilderness of the land of Egypt.”And the transgressors among them will be brought “out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel.” This is plainly after Messiah comes, so all Israel will not be there until that time.

    All this agrees perfectly with the fact that those who have now returned to the land are called Jews. The word Jew does not mean an Israelite. It means a descendant of the ancient kingdom of Judah, that is, a member of either the tribe of Judah or the tribe of Benjamin. This can be seen from the Hebrew words translated “Jew” in the Old Testament. The most commonly used one is yeudiy (word number 3064 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary). The meaning of this word becomes obvious when we see the word it is derived from, yehudah (word number 3063 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary). This is the name transliterated Judah, the name of the tribe and kingdom of Judah. Thus we see that the original form of the word Jew was Judie, or a citizen of Judah.

    There is another detail only slightly more obvious, which shows that Gog’s attack cannot be before Daniel’s seventieth week. The prophecy repeatedly states that at the time of the attack, the people of Israel will be dwelling “safely.” (Ezekiel 38:8,11,14) The Hebrew word translated safely in each of these places is betach. (word number 983 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This word doesn’t only refer to the actual fact of safety. It also refers to a feeling of being safe. Whether the word refers to the fact or the feeling of safety can only be determined from the context. In this case, the meaning is plainly the feeling of safety, rather than the actual fact. This can be seen from verse 14: “Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “On that day when My people Israel dwell safely, will you not know it?’”” If the meaning was that Gog knew the people were actually safe, this would not make him decide to attack. But if the meaning was that Gog knew they felt safe, it would encourage him to attack. We see this more clearly in verse 11: “You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’” Thus we see that the word safely in this prophecy refers to feeling safe, not actually being safe.

    In Daniel 9:27 we are told that The Roman prince will make a seven year covenant with Judah. This seven year period is Daniel’s seventieth week. This covenant will give them a false sense of security. (Isaiah 28:14-18) It seems obvious that those who dwell in present day Israel will never feel safe until the Roman prince’s treaty is confirmed. But we cannot interpret prophecy on the basis of current events. We need scripture for even this. In Amos 1:11 we read, “For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away its punishent, Because he pursued his brother with the sword, And cast off all pity; His anger tore perpetually, And he kept his wrath forever.” The anger and wrath of Edom will never cease. The ancient land of Edom covered the southern portion of present day _Jordan and the north-western part of today’s Saudi Arabia. Again, in Amos 1:6 we read “For three transgressions of Gaza, and for four, I will not turn away its punishment, Because they took captive the whole captivity To deliver them up to Edom,” clearly showing that Gaza will join Edom in their wickedness. The next verse, 8, mentions that this is the land of the Philistines. (that is, the Palestinians) And verse 9 adds that Tyre (in present day Lebanon) will join in as well. Thus we see that until Edom is destroyed there will never be a time when Judah (which is now called Israel) will have reasonable cause to feel safe. But this will not happen until Messiah comes.

    We know this because we read in Jeremiah 49:20-22, “Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD that He has taken against Edom, And His purposes that He has proposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out; Surely He shall make their dwelling places desolate with them. The earth shakes at the noise of their fall; At the cry its noise is heard at the Red Sea. Behold, He shall come up and fly like the eagle, And spread His wings over Bozrah; The heart of the mighty men of Edom in that day shall be Like the heart of a woman in birth pangs.”

    Again, we read in Isaiah 34:5-10, “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness. For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.”

    This judgment begins at Bozrah, about thirty miles south of the Dead Sea. It then goes some twenty-five miles south to Teman, and from there to within hearing of the Red Sea. Habakkuk 3:3 mentions the Lord’s coming from Mount Paran, which is approximately one hundred and sixty miles southeast of Teman, and is on the shore of the Red Sea. This entire area will receive the same judgment as Sodom and Gomorrah.

    This obviously takes place at the time when Messiah comes in power and glory, so we know Edom will not be destroyed until that time. And from this, we know that Israel will not dwell safely before that time, and therefore that Gog’s invasion cannot be before that time.
     
  2. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes. That's the plan.
     
  3. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You may need to go back and read post #17 again.
    You seem to have missed what Josephus said.



    "after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time]."

    .
     
  4. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    In Daniel 11:31, yes, there is not any disagreement about Antiochus committing the abomination of desolation act, prophesied in that verse.

    It is the end times abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 and Matthew 24 - that hasn't take place yet.
    The transgression of desolation by the little horn in Daniel 8 is also said in the text to be time of the end.

    Antiochus did not commit the transgression of desolation.

    Josephus's writings aren't even necessary to establish that the Jews in Jesus's day were aware of what Antiochus did. What you are trying to do is make Josephus a bible prophecy expert on the end times.
    Josephus made a huge error if he was saying that Antiochus in some way fulfilled the last week of Daniel 9's 70 week. Or was the little horn of Daniel 8.
     
  5. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    ....as opposed to Allah being God. Ezekiel 38 and the first half of Ezekiel 39 is the end times judgment on Islam, the end of it for the evil it had done while claiming to do so on the authority of Allah - which Muslims claim is the God of bible.

    Clean up of the land of the dead bodies ends in Ezekiel 39:16. Then at the end of the 7 year period following is the Armageddon feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20, with Jesus speaking in verse 21.
     
  6. Waggles

    Waggles Acts 2:38 Supporter

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    I do not know why people try and work all of this out to the year?
    We are not meant to.
    Besides most calculations are grossly wrong and people come up with strange theories about the
    anti-Christ, Daniel's seventy weeks, the Third Temple and all that.

    Keep it simple - Matthew 24 and Luke 21 and Mark 13 give us sufficient instructions.
    Yes, there are plenty of prophecies concerning Jerusalem and nations coming together against Judah
    (today's Jews aka Israelis). And watching the news about Middle East events - yes there is more
    happening in the world than the political chaos of Washington - one can see that Syria is the means
    by which nations and alliances will be drawn in like a whirlpool and will fight that great and terrible
    final battle.
    The Middle East is spinning out of control: Shia Islam against Sunni Islam, terrorism, ISIS, Iran,
    Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Hezbollah, Muslim Brotherhood, Libya, Hamas, Egypt ...

    So what should we do?
    35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house comes, at even, or at midnight,
    or at the cock crowing, or in the morning:
    36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
    37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
    Mark 13:
    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
    Luke 21:36
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  7. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    I am not trying to make Josephus a Bible prophecy "expert" on the end times.
    However, since he was born in 37 AD he is an excellent reference regarding what the Jews of his time understood about the Book of Daniel.


    There is absolutely no doubt that Antiochus fulfilled the "little horn" of Daniel 8.
    All one needs is a book on ancient history to verify this fact.


    Based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18, Daniel's 70th week was the time that the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people before it was taken to the Gentiles by Paul.

    Nobody can honestly deny that the Gospel was taken to the Jewish people for around 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
    Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:36)


    We also find the summary of the 70 weeks found in Daniel 9:24, fulfilled in Acts 10:38 and Hebrews 10:16-18.

    Since there was no "gap" or "antichrist" mentioned by the angel Gabriel in Daniel chapter 9, the 70 weeks timeline was completed during the first century.
    This is confirmed by the scripture found above and the article found below.


    Who Confirmed The Covenant?
    James Lloyd
    http://christianmediaresearch.com/node/1023

    .
     
  8. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    Well I wanted to say something to counter the people who think that this might be it. This might be it but not everyone want's this to be it. Some people are worried. Even some of the people who want this to be it, might not know what they're in for.

    Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord.

    What if the next thing that happens, isn't what we expected?

    "Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
    cruel, with wrath and fierce anger,
    to make the land a desolation
    and to destroy its sinners from it.
    For the stars of the heavens and their constellations
    will not give their light;
    the sun will be dark at its rising,
    and the moon will not shed its light.
    I will punish the world for its evil,
    and the wicked for their iniquity;
    I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant,
    and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.
    I will make people more rare than fine gold,
    and mankind than the gold of Ophir.
    Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
    and the earth will be shaken out of its place,
    at the wrath of the Lord of hosts
    in the day of his fierce anger.
     
  9. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The prophecy of the little horn committing the transgression of desolation is time of the end. Antiochus was not time of the end. It's in the text, BAB2.

    13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

    16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

    17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
     
  10. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Daniel's Vision of the Ram and the Goat (subtitle from eSword)

    Dan 8:1  In the third year of the reign of King Belshazzar a vision appeared to me—to me, Daniel—after the one that appeared to me the first time. 
    Dan 8:2  I saw in the vision, and it so happened while I was looking, that I was in Shushan, the citadel, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in the vision that I was by the River Ulai. 
    Dan 8:3  Then I lifted my eyes and saw, and there, standing beside the river, was a ram which had two horns, and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher one came up last. 
    Dan 8:4  I saw the ram pushing westward, northward, and southward, so that no animal could withstand him; nor was there any that could deliver from his hand, but he did according to his will and became great. 
    Dan 8:5  And as I was considering, suddenly a male goat came from the west, across the surface of the whole earth, without touching the ground; and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes. 
    Dan 8:6  Then he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing beside the river, and ran at him with furious power. 
    Dan 8:7  And I saw him confronting the ram; he was moved with rage against him, attacked the ram, and broke his two horns. There was no power in the ram to withstand him, but he cast him down to the ground and trampled him; and there was no one that could deliver the ram from his hand. 
    Dan 8:8  Therefore the male goat grew very great; but when he became strong, the large horn was broken, and in place of it four notable ones came up toward the four winds of heaven. 
    Dan 8:9  And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. 
    Dan 8:10  And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. 
    Dan 8:11  He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host; and by him the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. 
    Dan 8:12  Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered. 
    Dan 8:13  Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, "How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?" 
    Dan 8:14  And he said to me, "For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed." 


    The Interpretation of the Vision

    Dan 8:15  Then it happened, when I, Daniel, had seen the vision and was seeking the meaning, that suddenly there stood before me one having the appearance of a man. 
    Dan 8:16  And I heard a man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, "Gabriel, make this man understand the vision." 
    Dan 8:17  So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, "Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end." 
    Dan 8:18  Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. 
    Dan 8:19  And he said, "Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be. 
    Dan 8:20  The ram which you saw, having the two horns—they are the kings of Media and Persia. 
    Dan 8:21  And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king. 
    Dan 8:22  As for the broken horn and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power. 
    Dan 8:23  "And in the latter time of their kingdom, When the transgressors have reached their fullness, A king shall arise, Having fierce features, Who understands sinister schemes. 
    Dan 8:24  His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; He shall destroy fearfully, And shall prosper and thrive; He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people. 
    Dan 8:25  "Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; But he shall be broken without human means. 
    Dan 8:26  "And the vision of the evenings and mornings Which was told is true; Therefore seal up the vision, For it refers to many days in the future." 
    Dan 8:27  And I, Daniel, fainted and was sick for days; afterward I arose and went about the king's business. I was astonished by the vision, but no one understood it.

    (NKJV) 
     
  11. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Magog, (the land of the Scythians) Meshech, (Moscow) Tubal, (Tobolisk) and Gomer (the Celtic nations) are not Islamic lands, although many Islamic nations will come with them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  12. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Actually, the sun is going to be darkened next month on the 21st.
     
  13. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    On the opposite side of the world from the area of the Bible.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    And what nations are those in modern times?

    [​IMG]

    Libya, Ethiopia, Persia (Iran). Russia allied with Syria. Syria allied with Iran.
     
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  15. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    It would be as if the whole world was coming against them. Almost like a UN ultimatum.
     
  16. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    In ancient times, Meshech and Tubal occupied much of Cappedocia and Armenia. This can be seen in Ptolemy's Atlas. But in about the year 1050, the Turks invaded the region. They were so regarded for their horrible treatment of all areas they conquered, that the bulk of the population fled before their advance. As they were coming from the south, the only avenue of escape was to the north - into what is today called Russia. A Russian history written about that time made no mention of these tribes. But they are first mentioned in an entry for a short time after that, in a later Russian Chronicle.

    Gomer was called Gamer in Armenia and Gimmer in Assyria. Their people were called the Gimmerraa in the Assyrian literature and the Cimmerrians in Greek literature. It is a well known fact of history that the Cimmerrians were the ancestors of the people known to the Romans as the Gauls, and that the Gauls are the ancestors of the peoples today known as the Celts or the Kelts. These people are the root stock of most of western Europe, most of North America, and Australia. And the text explicitly says that "all the bands of Gomer" will take part in this attack.

    So basically, Ezekiel 38 says that Russia, most of western Europe, the United States, and Australia, will unite with the Islamic nations in pressing this attack, and will be totally defeated when they do so.
     
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  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    The vision regarding the little horn's transgression of desolation is time of the end.

    As I have been telling you, Daniel 8:23 is the latter time of trangressors' kingdom (not the Diadochi's four kingdoms) - the EU, in the latter time of the EU. The EU has been around in one form or another for 60 years. It has one more stage to go - when the ten king (leaders) come to power.

    BAB2, you are just looking at verse 22 and connecting it to verse 23. But that is not what is going on. The angel is presenting the whole vision of Daniel 8 in parts - covering 2500 years. He goes over the first three very quickly. Then commencing with Daniel 8:23, he begins talking about the little horn's kingdom and then at length about the little horn himself.

    In verse 20, kings of Persia and Media - around 550-331 bc
    in verse 21, greek kingdom and Alexander - around 350-300 bc
    in verse 22, the four break up kingdoms - around 300-140 bc
    in verse 23, the end times kingdom of the little horn - 2017
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2017
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    James, I think you are misinterpreting the bands of Gomer. By which, you are extending Gomer to be most of the world (you left out South America as the Europeans flowed west to populate that continent as well).

    It doesn't even make sense that Europe, the United States, and the West ally with the muslim terrorist countries like Iran to attack Israel. And why would the entire global armies need to band together attack Israel? The muslim countries, on the other hand, have an agenda to destroy Israel. And they need to band together, because since 1948, Israel has defeated them in every war.
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    In the same way that many rip "the time of Jacob's trouble" out of its context during the captivity in Babylon by ignoring the word "captivity", you are ripping the "little horn" away from the time of 167 BC by ignoring the fact that Antiochus Epiphanes is the "little horn" that came out of the other "horns", such as Alexander the Great and his four generals.


    .
     
  20. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What? It is not a fact that the little horn is Antiochus Ephiphanes.

    There are the four horns, toward the four winds of heaven, and at the time of the end, the little horn will come forth from one of the them, waxing strong to the south and east toward Israel. It is just saying that the little horn, at the time of the end, will head south east into the middle east with a strong army.... from a location once part of one of the four breakup kingdoms.

    It is informing from where - what part of the world; specifically, his army will come from being staged in Greece.

    In similitude to defining territories or locations, the composite body of the beast in Revelation 13, of the three ancient empires of Babylonian, Medes-Persians, Greek - is just saying that in the end times, with 42 months left in the 7 years, the fourth empire at that time - the EU - will have gained control of the territories once part of those three ancient empires.
     
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