Is earthly Jerusalem the "great city" in the Book of Revelation?

[LittleLambofJesus]

H
Hi I happened to come across this debate on the date of when Revelation was written. This is Germain to the topic as the book is a prophecy of thing to come and if written after 70AD the preterist view is toast. This is a long debate but the level of evidence is well organized and well presented.

Debate on the Date of the Book of Revelation - The Pre-Trib Research Center

However, if it was visioned/written before 70 ad, the futurist view is toast.......[Futurism is toast regardless of when it was visioned/written]

There are a plethora of threads on CF discussing that according to a google search:
search "dating revelation christian forums"

https://www.google.com/search?q=dat...EqwKHejYDHkQrQIoBDAAegQIAxAN&biw=1366&bih=626
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When was the Book of Revelation written?

Please state whether you believe Revelation was written either post 70 AD or Pre 70 AD.

Additionally, please provide evidence to support your belief.

1. Post 70 AD
   24 vote(s)
   63.2%
2. Pre 70 AD
   14 vote(s)
   36.8%

JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION
Was Flavius Josephus familiar with the Apocalypse of John?

John's Revelation - “And there were noises and thundering and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth.” (16:18)

Josephus - “for there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming” (“Wars of the Jews” 4:4:5) John's Revelation - "Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.” (16:19)

Josephus - “it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice.” (5:1:1)

John's Revelation - “And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent.” (16:21)

Josephus - “Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness;” (5:6:3)....................
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Sites from the Preterist view

Dating the Apocalypse | Preterist Archive
The final destruction of Jerusalem came in 70 A.D. God's purposes and plans were all in place by this time. Nothing remained to be done.

Preterism and the Date of Revelation

Preterism and the Date of Revelation | Study Archive

• STUDY TOPICS
  • Authorship: John the Apostle, Presbyter, Other
  • Babylon: Rome, Jerusalem, Other
  • Date of Composition: Before AD70, After AD70, Composite
  • Language of Origin: Greek, Syriac, Other
  • Antichrist: Nero, Nero Redivivus, Nero Rediturus, Etc.
  • Origin: Christian, Christian Redaction of Jewish Apocalyptic

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Early Date of Revelation – The Preterist Archive of Realized Eschatology
When was the Book of Revelation written

Date of Revelation (AD 62)

Description: This deals with the evidence for determining the early pre-70 date of the book of Revelation. We date the book in relation to a number of factors, including internal and external considerations. We arrive at a date in the second half of AD 62, before Hebrews and 2nd Peter were written. There is a PDF lesson outline available for this podcast. Email us if you would like to have a copy of it: "Date of Revelation" on 8/19/2012. Please request it by title and date. Here is our email address: preterist1@preterist.org

 

[BABerean2]

H


Hi I happened to come across this debate on the date of when Revelation was written. This is Germain to the topic as the book is a prophecy of thing to come and if written after 70AD the preterist view is toast. This is a long debate but the level of evidence is well organized and well presented.

Debate on the Date of the Book of Revelation - The Pre-Trib Research Center

Two guys promoting the doctrine that John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War, against a man who has recently become Eastern Orthodox.

Dr. Walter Martin is spinning in his grave.

.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

well lets see how much toast we can cover with butter and jelly.

The sharing of the debate elevates our discussion to a higher scholarly level than we can merit on our own. I watched the 3 hours of it and would welcome you to do the same.

The return of Israel and the coming 3rd temple are just like Noah's ark are a tangible evidence that the abomination of desolation is future. The odds of a nation coming back to be while exiled from their homelands for more than 3 generations is 1 in all of history and that is modern Israel. The world does not and has not reflected the righteousness of Christ ruling as king ever. The 2nd coming brings a righteous transformation on the earth prior to the new Jerusalem. The end of the tribulation is Armageddon and this is where the blood rises to the horses bridle. All the nations are gathered there and in ZEch 14 it shows Jerusalem is being overrun when the LORD comes and half of the city is taken captive. This does not fit historical 70 AD. The 2nd coming of the LORD at Armageddon is completely different than the description of what happens after the 1000 years is over. This is when Satan is loosed and he does gather an army and surrounds the city Jerusalem; then fire comes down from heaven and that is it the great white throne comes after this gap of 1000 from the 2 nd coming to the last rebellion.

 

[BABerean2]

well lets see how much toast we can cover with butter and jelly.

The sharing of the debate elevates our discussion to a higher scholarly level than we can merit on our own. I watched the 3 hours of it and would welcome you to do the same.

The return of Israel and the coming 3rd temple are just like Noah's ark are a tangible evidence that the abomination of desolation is future. The odds of a nation coming back to be while exiled from their homelands for more than 3 generations is 1 in all of history and that is modern Israel. The world does not and has not reflected the righteousness of Christ ruling as king ever. The 2nd coming brings a righteous transformation on the earth prior to the new Jerusalem. The end of the tribulation is Armageddon and this is where the blood rises to the horses bridle. All the nations are gathered there and in ZEch 14 it shows Jerusalem is being overrun when the LORD comes and half of the city is taken captive. This does not fit historical 70 AD. The 2nd coming of the LORD at Armageddon is completely different than the description of what happens after the 1000 years is over. This is when Satan is loosed and he does gather an army and surrounds the city Jerusalem; then fire comes down from heaven and that is it the great white throne comes after this gap of 1000 from the 2 nd coming to the last rebellion.

It would be my understanding that the Book of Revelation was written after 70 AD, so I agree with you on that point.

However, just about everything else you have said comes from the man-made doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

It would be my understanding that the Book of Revelation was written after 70 AD, so I agree with you on that point.

However, just about everything else you have said comes from the man-made doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

.

Hi I am will aware of your covenant theology and fortunately I learned along time ago to eat the chicken and spit our the bones. I have share the agreed upon doctrine of one covenant for salvation is all there is. Even the old testament saints waited in Abraham's bosom for the blood of the new covenant to make atonement and they sign that they were redeemed by the blood of the lamb and also that they will reign upon the earth. This is the chicken and the amen. The bones are that the new covenant replaced the unconditional covenant with Abraham that he would become a great nation and gave to that nation the promised land as an unconditional covenant. Now what a great thing that God is able to perform His word.
In Jer 31 where the new covenant is promised we see that God notes it is not according the covenant made when they were taken out of Egypt. This promise of the new covenant has two very interesting verses put in immediately after promising it in Jer. God knew as Jesus declared the destruction of Jerusalem was coming shortly after He brought in the new covenant. So these verses in jer 31
Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37 Thus says the LORD:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the LORD.

Right here when God is bringing in the covenant He doubly states that Israel will not cease to be a nation in His eyes. Further down in the same chapter 31 this verse 38 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, that the city shall be built for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The surveyor’s line shall again extend straight forward over the hill Gareb; then it shall turn toward Goath. 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the Brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD. It shall not be plucked up or thrown down anymore forever.”

Note the city being built is also what will happen in ZEch 14 when the LORD comes and saves Israel while they are being overrun. This chapter is the juncture of the end of the tribulation and the onset of the millennium. The LORD is king over all the earth and in that day they will say the LORD is one. This is Israel's Joseph moment when they are confessing Jesus is LORD. Note the dead bodies mentioned in Jer 31 are also there in Rev when the LORD comes and life continues on earth for the 1000 years. If you look at Luke 1 and consider this is what the HOLY Spirit says Jesus will do and think it over Zech 14 describes the point where the promised deliverance takes place and they onset of them being Holy and worhshipping and serving without fear all the days of their lives.

Luke 1
67 Now his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited and redeemed His people,
69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of His servant David,
70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets,
Who have been since the world began,
71 That we should be saved from our enemies
And from the hand of all who hate us,
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers
And to remember His holy covenant,
73 The oath which He swore to our father Abraham:
74 To grant us that we,
Being delivered from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before Him all the days of our life.

Just like the disciples on the road to Emmaus when Jesus opened up hte scriptures to show them what was said of Him so too will the second coming and kingdom age be. I can show you hundreds of unfulfilled prophecy that will all work in concert without contradiction by just believing God will do as He said He would. If you like I can pile some up if you are willing to read them. The New covenant Amen. The LORD road in on a literal foal of donkey and was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver which were given to the potter. So too will the Mt of Olives split in two and a new river form with a new valley as well and the LORD will reign just as it says on the throne of David for 1000 years.

 

[BABerean2]

Just like the disciples on the road to Emmaus when Jesus opened up hte scriptures to show them what was said of Him so too will the second coming and kingdom age be. I can show you hundreds of unfulfilled prophecy that will all work in concert without contradiction by just believing God will do as He said He would. If you like I can pile some up if you are willing to read them. The New covenant Amen. The LORD road in on a literal foal of donkey and was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver which were given to the potter. So too will the Mt of Olives split in two and a new river form with a new valley as well and the LORD will reign just as it says on the throne of David for 1000 years.

Based on the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25, nobody will be saved at His Second Coming.
This is confirmed by Paul describing Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

There are no mortals left for your version of the millennium at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
The time of the judgment of the dead is right after the 7th trumpet, in Revelation 11:18.

You are attempting to change the one seed, into the many seeds in the passage below.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


It is not my covenant theology found below. It comes from the Bible.

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
(Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31. It is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6.)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Based on the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25, nobody will be saved at His Second Coming.
This is confirmed by Paul describing Christ returning "in flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

There are no mortals left for your version of the millennium at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.

Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing in 2 Timothy 4:1.
The time of the judgment of the dead is right after the 7th trumpet, in Revelation 11:18.

You are attempting to change the one seed, into the many seeds in the passage below.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


It is not my covenant theology found below. It comes from the Bible.

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
(Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31. It is "now" in effect, based on Hebrews 8:6.)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
.

brother I already agree we are in the new covenant I presented a case where the covenant with Moses was replaced and not the covenant with Abraham. The promise to Abraham for the land was unconditional and the only part of that covenant that has to do with Gentiles is in his seed all the nations of the world will be blessed. You are wrong in saying there are no survivors as in Zech 14 it shows the LORD coming and destroying and notes the nations that are left must come and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they get no rain.
In Isaiah 61 it speaks of jesus proclaiming the acceptable year of the LORD and this same one in Isaiah is to bring the day of vengeance and in this day it is the same day Zech 14 and Rev talk about and there are in this passage distinctions between Jew and Gentile throughout and it is Zion focused.
Armageddon is described quite differently that what happens at the end of the 1000 years when Satan is loosed. When the new heaven and earth and New Jerusalem come down this is when the kingdom of God is which is after the great white throne judgment. At this point you will be right to say all who make it in are the Israel of God. Spiritual Israel is true to enter these gates. The current events are trending towards a global anit christian NWO order which will have plenty of churches going along with it. The temple sacrifices will become a reality. This is strong evidence that the abomination of desolation is future and that all the future prophecy will play our as I have suggested they will. Luke 1 shows the deliverance as a nation and spiritually when Israel comes to faith. Along with Isaiah 61 try Ezekiel 36 which speaks of the day the LORD gathers the nation Israel back to the mountains of Israel. God promises that He will give them a new heart. He notes Israel has profaned His name everywhere where they were scattered and that they will know He is the LORD in the day that he does this.
You see Jesus is going to rule with a rod of iron and the prophecies of sitting on Davids throne are more than than triumphal entry on palm Sunday. The level of righteousness when Jesus returns will be amazing and this is when He rules with a rod of Iron. Jesus won't need a rod of iron to rule those raised apart from the sin nature after the great white throne.
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

In Rev it says the angels declare the kingdoms of this earth have become the kingdom of our LORD and His Christ and He shall rule forever. Zech 14 shows the LORD as king over all the earth on the day Jerusalem is being overrun. This is the 2nd coming and this is when Jesus takes the throne of David.

Hosea 3 notes the Israel will go many days without a king or sacrifice which indicates at the end of many days there will be both. The return of the sacrifice is tied to the latter days and David also being raised up. 4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

finally Jer 3
14 “Return, O backsliding children,” says the LORD; “for I am married to you. I will take you, one from a city and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion. 15 And I will give you shepherds according to My heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.
16 “Then it shall come to pass, when you are multiplied and increased in the land in those days,” says the LORD, “that they will say no more, ‘The ark of the covenant of the LORD.’ It shall not come to mind, nor shall they remember it, nor shall they visit it, nor shall it be made anymore.
17 “At that time Jerusalem shall be called The Throne of the LORD, and all the nations shall be gathered to it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem. No more shall they follow the dictates of their evil hearts.
18 “In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given as an inheritance to your fathers.

You see I believe in the new covenant and spiritual Israel and there is no contradiction in believing God will keep these words to the letter too. This has not happened in Jer 3 either. The deliverance in Luke 1 after the 7 year tribulation and the rise of the man of sin is followed by the glorious salvation of the world and conversion of Israel. This is when the nations are ruled with a rod of iron and Satan is bound. That is why the 2nd coming and Armageddon are described as two distinct events with a gap of 1000 years in between. so remember where we agree and see if you can show how this cannot be true and address the contradictions in your view I have proposed.

 

[BABerean2]

You are wrong in saying there are no survivors as in Zech 14 it shows the LORD coming and destroying and notes the nations that are left must come and keep the feast of Tabernacles or they get no rain.

Who is the tabernacle in the New Covenant?

Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.


What did the Apostle Paul say about the feasts being a shadow of Christ in the passage below?

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

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[Brian Mcnamee]

hi are you tracking the arguments? You have been led by partial truths to put a bag over your head and ignore the clear specific prophecies regarding Israel the kingdom and the reign of Christ. I have laid out apparent contradiction in your view and showed where we agree as far as the new covenant and the spiritual Israel. Where is the throne of David? When is Jesus to rule with a rod of iron? When did Jer 3 happen? Why is the description of the 2nd coming completely different than that of what happens after the millennium? I pointed out that the covenant being replaced is the one with Moses and not the one with Abraham and showed how the literal fulfilment of these things does not contradict that there is only one covenant for salvation and that a spiritual Israel is a real thing that does not come to inherit the kingdom until after the 1000 years is over and the great white throne takes place. I showed how current events support the literal view and challenged your doctrine that you keep reiterating rather than taking on my arguments. In a debate if you do not refute the arguments of another you are considered to agree with them. I have stayed on topic and presented a challenge to your belief based on scripture. You have been led to your position and have not been able to refute my points. In this setting by rules you would have lost. You are named Barean and perhaps you should be more noble minded and actually debate and search to see if these things are so.
Mark Twain said it is easier to fool someone than to convince someone who has been fooled that they are wrong.

 

[BABerean2]

Where is the throne of David? When is Jesus to rule with a rod of iron? When did Jer 3 happen? Why is the description of the 2nd coming completely different than that of what happens after the millennium?

Where is the throne of David?
Christ described Himself as the "chief cornerstone" in Matthew chapter 21.
Do you believe what Christ said, or do you need to replace Christ with a temple made of rock?

Peter described the New Covenant temple in 1 Peter 2:4-10.
Do you believe what Peter said?

What does the "son" do to the flawed pottery in Psalm 2?
He destroys it. He does not correct it, like a schoolmaster.

If you have to ignore Hebrews 11:15-16 to make your view of the land promise work, your viewpoint cannot be correct.

Paul describes Christ returning "in flaming fire", in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
We also find the fire coming at the end of Revelation chapter 20.
Peter described the fire coming on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief", in 2 Peter 3:10-13.
Do you think Peter was confused?

Paul said Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing, in 2 Timothy 4:1.
We find the judgment of the dead at the end of Revelation chapter 20, because the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order. We know this because "the time of the judgment of the dead" is also found in Revelation 11:18.

How many New Testament witnesses do you need to prove your Two Peoples of God doctrine is not scriptural?

The original source of your doctrine is found below.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology

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[Brian Mcnamee]

I have showed that the thing we hold in common are there only ever was salvation in the new covenant and I am not advocating the old covenant. I have showed that the covenant in Jer 31 that is being replaced is the one made when they come out of Egypt. This does not annul the covenant with Abraham. I have showed that the 2nd coming is when Christ is king over the earth and not prior. I have showed life continues after the 2nd coming and that the spiritual Israel or all those who quality for the kingdom of heaven is a real group and that era begins after the 1000 years. The world reflects that Satan is not bound and never has been bound. The promises of Jesus ruling from Jerusalem for 1000 years are not spiritual referring to the new Jerusalem but real Jerusalem. Now in psalm 72 is an interesting passage of the time when the Messiah is to rule.
5 They shall fear You[fn]
As long as the sun and moon endure,
Throughout all generations.
6 He shall come down like rain upon the grass before mowing,
Like showers that water the earth.
7 In His days the righteous shall flourish,
And abundance of peace,
Until the moon is no more.
8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea,
And from the River to the ends of the earth.
9 Those who dwell in the wilderness will bow before Him,
And His enemies will lick the dust.
10 The kings of Tarshish and of the isles
Will bring presents;
The kings of Sheba and Seba
Will offer gifts.
11 Yes, all kings shall fall down before Him;
All nations shall serve Him.

All nations have never served the LORD and this cannot be the New Jerusalem either Rev 21 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. The avalanche of prophecies some I have referred to such as Jer 3 ZEch 13 and Isaiah 61 all fit into the future model. You are free to maintain your view but in my opinion it is a bad conclusion where you justify God failing to keep his word when every valuable truth you hold is not abandoned by futurist. The new covenant is in full force, Spiritual Israel and a spiritual kingdom are real. Reality is arcing on the path futurist hold and the very salvation and deliverance of Israel is coming. In fact in the law God says He will never cast off Israel or forget the covenant with the Father for the land.

if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left empty by them, and will enjoy its sabbaths while it lies desolate without them;
they will accept their guilt, because they despised My judgments and because their soul abhorred My statutes.
44 Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them;
for I am the LORD their God.

Your main error is insisting that the new covenant replaces the covenant with Abraham and affirmed to Isaac and Jacob for the land. The covenant with Moses is the one that is null and not the covenant with Abraham. The passage in LUKE 1 speaking of jesus delivering Israel form their enemies and them entering a time of peace safety and holiness fits with the futurist literal timeline.

 

[BABerean2]

Your main error is insisting that the new covenant replaces the covenant with Abraham and affirmed to Isaac and Jacob for the land. The covenant with Moses is the one that is null and not the covenant with Abraham. The passage in LUKE 1 speaking of jesus delivering Israel form their enemies and them entering a time of peace safety and holiness fits with the futurist literal timeline.

Your main error is a failure to see that Christ is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant as revealed by the Apostle Paul in the passage below.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Your other error is a failure to see that Christ is the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises as revealed below by the Son of God.
Luke 24:25 applies directly to you, and all others promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine brought to America by John Nelson Darby.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
(How much of the Old Testament is found in the verse above?)

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

well lets see how much toast we can cover with butter and jelly.
This does not fit historical 70 AD. The 2nd coming of the LORD at Armageddon is completely different than the description of what happens after the 1000 years is over. This is when Satan is loosed and he does gather an army and surrounds the city Jerusalem; then fire comes down from heaven and that is it the great white throne comes after this gap of 1000 from the 2 nd coming to the last rebellion.

Armageddon was Jerusalem/Judea 70AD......

"Ye will hear of battles and rumors of battles" 1st century concluding in Judea/Jerusalem 70ad

Matthew 24:
6 “And you will hear of battles and rumors of battles. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?

Revelation 16:
14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which are going out upon the kings of the whole being-homed<3625> to be gathering then together<4863> into the Battle of Great Day of the God Almighty.
15 Behold! I am coming as a thief. Happy/blessed the one watching<1127> and keeping the garments of him that he may not be walking naked and may be observing the indecency of him.
16 And he gathered-together/sunhgagen<4863> them into the place called, in the Hebrew tongue, Armageddon.

The question is, is it the same event as Gog Magog?

Revelation 20:8
and he shall be coming out<1831> to deceive<4105> all the nations, that are in the four corners of the land -- the Gog and the Magog -- to gather them together/sunagagein<4863> into the Battle, of which the number of them as the sand of the sea;

Armegeddon and Gog-magog same event?

1. *
   I view them as the same event
   16 vote(s)
   22.9%
2. I view them as different events
   43 vote(s)
   61.4%
3. I am not sure
   7 vote(s)
   10.0%
4. Does it really matter?
   4 vote(s)
   5.7%

=============================
Christ, Israel, and the fall of Jerusalem

Hello mkgal.
They say faith can move mountains. Interesting correlation between Matt 21, Heb 12 and Rev 8.

Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Mountain burning sea..........

Great post, LLoJ!

Zechariah 13, 14 and Micah 1:3 are tied to all of this as well.

Quoting Dr. Chuck Crisco:
IN THAT DAY INCLUDES BOTH THE CRUCIFIXION AND AD 70

When Zechariah says that the Mount of Olives will split, he is also using language similar to the Exodus event where there was a splitting of the Red Sea to deliver them from Egypt. In this case the idea is that in that period of history (AD 30-70) God is making a way of deliverance from the Romans armies and from the persecution of Jerusalem. There was a SPLIT between the literal mountain-Jerusalem and spiritual mountain Jerusalem (Zion- Hebrews 12) when the Jewish believers fled the city while the Jewish unbelieving apostates stayed in there. Talk about a church split! It separated the wheat from the chaff!
Will Jerusalem Be Surrounded in the Last Days? — A New Day Dawning

 

[BABerean2]

Armageddon was Jerusalem/Judea 70AD......

Did "the time of the judgment of the dead" found below, occur during 70 AD?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Did the Queen of the South rise up in the judgment during 70 AD?

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Do you have to ignore the passages above to make your form of Preterism work?

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Did "the time of the judgment of the dead" found below, occur during 70 AD?

Did the Queen of the South rise up in the judgment during 70 AD?
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
Do you have to ignore the passages above to make your form of Preterism work?
.

Hello BAB.......I can only take Jesus at His word that it would come upon that 1st century generation of Judeans/Judea/Jerusalem.........

Thread on "this generation":

"THIS GENERATION" in Bible

Thread on Ninevites and Queen of south:

Matt 12 and Luke 11 "QUEEN OF SOUTH AND NINEVITES" JUDGING GENERATION

I came across these verses, which I are part of the 1st century Jerusalem/Temple discourse/parousia, and found some differences in the wording between the Ninevites [standing up G450]nd Queen of the South [being roused G1453].

Both Matthew and Luke mention this event.
I thought it might be interesting to look more closely at these "end time" verses.

450. anistemi from 303 and 2476;
to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).
303. ana a primary preposition and adverb;
properly, up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.)
2476. histemi a prolonged form of a primary stao stah'-o (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses);
to stand (transitively or intransitively),

1081. gennema from 1080;
offspring; by analogy, produce (literally or figuratively):--fruit, generation.

Matthew 12
34 Brood<1081> of vipers! How can you who are evil speak good things? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 A good man from a good treasure brings good things, and an evil man from evil treasure brings evil things.
36 For I say to you that every idle word that people will speak, they will give an answer for it in the day of judgment. 37 For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned." 38 Then some of the Scribes and Pharisees responded and they were saying to him, "Teacher we wish to see a sign from you." 39 But he answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40 For just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, thus The Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

41 `Men Ninevites shall be standing up<450> in the judging with this generation and they shall be condemning it,
That they repent<3340> into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.
=============
Luke 11:
27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, "Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you." 28 He said to her, "Blessings to those who have heard the word of God and keep it."
29 And when the crowds were assembling he began to say, "This wicked generation seeks for a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet." 30 "For just as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites thus also the Son of the Man shall be to this generation."
31 "The Queen of The South shall stand in judgment with the people of this generation, and she shall condemn them, for she came from the far side of the land that she might hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold, he who is greater than Solomon is here."

32 'Men, Ninevites shall be standing-up<450> in the judging with this generation, and shall be condemning<2632 it,
That they repent<3340> at the proclamation of Jonah and behold! greater/more<4119> of Jonah here
=================
1453. egeiro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties);
to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying

Matthew 12
34Brood<1081> of vipers!
How can you who are evil speak good things? For from the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks. 35A good man from a good treasure brings good things, and an evil man from evil treasure brings evil things. 36For I say to you that every idle word that people will speak, they will give an answer for it in the day of judgment. 37For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned." 38Then some of the Scribes and Pharisees responded and they were saying to him, "Teacher we wish to see a sign from you." 39But he answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet. 40For just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, thus The Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights. 41The Ninevite men will arise in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, one greater than Jonah is here

42 `A Queen of the south shall be being roused/rising<1453> in the judging<2920> with this generation and shall be condemning it.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, more of Solomon here!
========
Luke 11:
27 And while he was speaking these things, a woman raised her voice from the crowd and she said to him, "Blessing to the womb that carried you and to the breasts that suckled you." 28 He said to her, "Blessings to those who have heard the word of God and keep it."
29 And when the crowds were assembling he began to say, "This wicked generation seeks for a sign and a sign will not be given to it except the sign of Jonah the Prophet." 30 "For just as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites thus also The Son of Man shall be to this generation."

31 'A queen of the south shall be being roused/rising<1453> in the judging with the men of this generation, and shall be condemning them.
That she came from the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon and behold! greater/more than Solomon here!

TO BE CONTINUED.................
==========================================

 

[mkgal1]

Did "the time of the judgment of the dead" found below, occur during 70 AD?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Did the Queen of the South rise up in the judgment during 70 AD?

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.


Do you have to ignore the passages above to make your form of Preterism work?

.

There are certain words in the Bible that carry a lot of connotations with them. "Judgement" is an example of that. Maybe, in order to minimize our assumptions, we should think of God's justice (or setting things right again) when we read that word - instead of leaping to conclusions? He carries out His justice all throughout the Bible, not just once.

Matthew 12:41-42 ~
“The people of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.”

Matthew 23:31-36:
“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation? Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.”

Jesus said that Jerusalem / Israel would be judged in that generation. But, that is not the whole story. Look closer. All of the blood, of all the righteous, all the way back to Creation would also be avenged for in that event.
​

 

[mkgal1]

Rev_11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Doesn't that answer the question in the OP? There was both holiness and profanity in Jerusalem in Jesus' day (and He restored Israel to Himself).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

BABerean2 said: ↑
Rev_11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Doesn't that answer the question in the OP? There was both holiness and profanity in Jerusalem in Jesus' day (and He restored Israel to Himself).

If I understand correctly, I believe BAB views Jerusalem as still future in Revelation,
while the Preterist view is that the great City is 1st century Jerusalem/70ad.

If I understand Partial Preterism correctly, it views MOST of Revelation as fulfilled.......

Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero. The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION

Rev 14:7
saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

Rev 17:1
Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me,[fn] “Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits on many waters,

Rev 18:10
“standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

Here is where the phrase "great city" occurs in the Bible. Only in 6 verses of the OT and 10 verses in the NT, all in Revelation

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
"great city"
occurs 16 times in 16 verses in the NKJV.

Jer 22:
7
I will prepare destroyers against you,Everyone with his weapons;
They shall cut down your choice cedars And cast them into the fire.
8
“And many nations will pass by this city; and everyone will say to his neighbor, ‘Why has the LORD done so to this great City?’
9
“Then they will answer, ‘Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD their God, and worshiped other gods and served them.’ ”

Last time used:

Jon 4:11
“And should I not pity Nineveh, that great City, in which are more than one hundred and twenty thousand persons who cannot discern between their right hand and their left—and much livestock?”
==================================
That phrase is only used the book of Revelation of the NT:

Rev 11:8
And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our[fn] Lord was crucified.

Rev 16:19
Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Rev 17:18
“And the Woman whom you saw is that great City which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

Rev 18:10
“standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'

Rev 18:16
“and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!

Rev 18:18
“and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great City?'

Rev 18:19
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great City, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth!
For in one hour she is made desolate.'

Rev 18:21
Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great City Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.

Rev 14:8
And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great City, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

Revelation 21:10

And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great City, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Compare with this similar event of the tempation of Jesus by the Devil:

Mat 4:
5 Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple,
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

 

[mkgal1]

If I understand correctly, I believe BAB views Jerusalem in Revelation which is a Futurist view..
while the Preterist view is that the great City is 1st century Jerusalem/70ad.

That's what I'm understanding as well. It's a confusing stance that's in the middle of both futurism and Orthodox preterism (borrowing beliefs from both sides and cobbling them together).

 

[BABerean2]

If I understand correctly, I believe BAB views Jerusalem as still future in Revelation,
while the Preterist view is that the great City is 1st century Jerusalem/70ad.

It is both past, and present, and future.

In Matthew chapter 23 Jesus described Jerusalem as the city that killed the prophets, during His time.

What do we find happening now in the video below?

The "time of the judgment of the dead", found in Revelation 11:18, has not yet occurred. It is future.

.