Is creationism and Christianity dying in the US?

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

The writings of Josephus are very much in doubt

No they are not. It's you now who are very much in doubt.

 

[madaz]

lewiscalledhimmaster


Thought I can understand why AV1611VET responds as strongly to you, as he does in post 217 -- when he replies to your statement:
You stated: It was about as real as relationships with imaginary friends can get.
His response:
In other words, sterile and meaningless; as opposed to:
enlightened
tasting the heavenly gift
made a partaker of the Holy Ghost
tasted the good word of God
tasted the powers of the world to come
(He was summarizing a passage in Hebrews 6, which implies that you've put your toe in God's river, but not gone any deeper)
Your reply to his question, in post 207 -- is what I'm responding too:
His question: Christ was simply a figment of your imagination then?
Your response: Correct! He was then as he is now. I just didn't realise it at the time.
How have I responded thus far?
(a) Post 208:
Imagination is fun, but it's like a mirage.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.
Guess who?
Your reply: One of my favorite quotes.
(For our Readers Digest: ALBERT EINSTEIN)
(b) Post 210:
Here's another from the chapter which Richard Dawkins and (physicist) Stephen Wienberg* enjoyed: (it's towards the end of their chat)
'For now we see in a mirror dimly, ....'
Here's a translation of it, which I hope opens it up a little more:
'We don’t yet see things clearly. We’re squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. ....'
Guess who?
---



Your reply: I didn't watch the video, however Im familiar with that verse in 1 Corinthians.
Do you have a point to make? __________________
(For our Readers Digest: The Apostle Paul)
Though I'm certain most of our Readers get the point, let me spell it out for you. Your replies to AV1611VET downplay the role of imagination.
My replies to you have been an attempt to point that out, by providing you with some substance i.e. ALBERT EINSTEIN (who you clearly love - Readers please note the following quote in madaz signature:
I am a deeply religious nonbeliever -- this is a somewhat new kind of religion. - ~Albert Einstein~
The subject of the role of imagination in spirituality, is huge -- so here are a couple of links that might be interesting to Readers who might have downplayed it's role in our lives:
1. IGNATIAN SPIRITUALITY - Pray With Your Imagination
2. IMAGINATION, IMAGE OF GOD AND WISDOM OF GOD : THEOSOPHICAL THEMES IN DOOYEWEERD'S PHILOSOPHY - Dr J Glenn Friesen
Just so you don't come back with another 'Do you have a point to make____' I defer to AV1611VET's response in post 217 -- but I'm hoping you'll watch the video, think about the two quotes and take a nice long read through the two very extensive articles (no. 2 is a huge read, so my guess is you'll probably get back to me in a year or two - which will suit me fine. I'm in no hurry to convert you, or revive what seems like a wasted cause to AV1611VET.)


madaz

Thanks for clarifying further, I have a learning dissability (dyslexia) which means I need things to be very clear and specific for me to comprehend. Playing guessing games only sends me down the garden path so to speak.

Anyway...

First of all, I dont recall ever responding to AV1611 in this thread, I have no time for a wasted cause like him.

Secondly, due to a web marshalling I am unable to view videos.

Thirdly, Im not going to do a huge read to understand your point, if you can provide a clear simple succinct point I will respond.

 

[Blue Wren]

I don't think Christianity will die in America, no, but it will dwindle, in numbers, over more time, yes. Creationism, I think is something, that will die off with the older generations, that believed in it, from childhood on. I do not think, there are so many people, under age 40, who believe in it now, except, perhaps the homeschooled children. It is already, very, very rare, in Europe.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I don't think Christianity will die in America, no, but it will dwindle, in numbers, over more time, yes. Creationism, I think is something, that will die off with the older generations, that believed in it, from childhood on. I do not think, there are so many people, under age 40, who believe in it now, except, perhaps the homeschooled children. It is already, very, very rare, in Europe.

I think the hard-core fundamentalist version of Christianity will die out, hopefully in my lifetime. That version of Christianity hasn't won many fans in the greater population...so their probability of converting adults is pretty slim. Maybe that's why they have so many kids...

 

[AceHero]

I don't think Christianity will die in America, no, but it will dwindle, in numbers, over more time, yes. Creationism, I think is something, that will die off with the older generations, that believed in it, from childhood on. I do not think, there are so many people, under age 40, who believe in it now, except, perhaps the homeschooled children. It is already, very, very rare, in Europe.

I think the hard-core fundamentalist version of Christianity will die out, hopefully in my lifetime. That version of Christianity hasn't won many fans in the greater population...so their probability of converting adults is pretty slim. Maybe that's why they have so many kids...

I hope fundamentalist Christianity dies out; I just hope it doesn't take the rest of the faith with it. It's so influential - if it wasn't we wouldn't have politicians pushing creationism and the personhood movement on us.

The waning of Christianity is not due to atheism, it is due to the vocal extremism within the faith itself.

In order for Christianity to survive, creationism can no longer be seen as a tenet of Christianity. If it is, we're doomed, because I don't think our post-modern world can take seriously a religion that is obsessed with the mistaken belief that the earth was created 6,000 years ago.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I hope fundamentalist Christianity dies out; I just hope it doesn't take the rest of the faith with it. It's so influential - if it wasn't we wouldn't have politicians pushing creationism and the personhood movement on us.

The waning of Christianity is not due to atheism, it is due to the vocal extremism within the faith itself.

In order for Christianity to survive, creationism can no longer be seen as a tenet of Christianity. If it is, we're doomed, because I don't think our post-modern world can take seriously a religion that is obsessed with the mistaken belief that the earth was created 6,000 years ago.

The bolded is what I've been saying...the extremism and rejection of anything scientific is what is giving Christianity a black eye. No thinking person is going to fall for YEC, and the things that the extremists go on and on about, the personhood movement, the opposition to gay marriage, the attempts to force public schools to teach creationism (part of the dumbing down of the US), the strident opposition to social programs, the misogynist ideas, the insistence of supporting politicians who have proven that their economic ideas have sent their states into the red. We won't discuss the self-proclaimed preachers who have no real biblical knowledge, no real training...

Christianity has become a dirty word. To say you're a Christian immediately gets you the side eye and the shake of the head from anyone with an education. Christianity is seen as something that is only believed by backwards, ignorant, ill-informed, ill-educated people. I can't say I blame folks for having that idea after seeing some of the sheer lunacy coming out of some of the conservative states...doing away with the AP classes in Oklahoma, Roy Moore's defiance of the Supreme Court in Alabama, McDonnell in Virginia who was touted as a possible 2016 POTUS candidate who is now on his way to federal prison, the indictment against Rick Perry, the scrutiny of Chris Christie, Bobby Jindal, etc.

Even those who are sort of conservative see these guys and well...they get laughed at...

I can't admit to being a Christian where i work...because immediately I'm thought of as a world-class gullible idiot rather than a degreed PE. Its pretty sad when Mormons are thought of as more intellectual than Christians....

 

[TasManOfGod]

RedPonyDriver
As Jesus believed in creationism , are you suggesting that Christians should do away with Jesus also

 

[RedPonyDriver]

RedPonyDriver
As Jesus believed in creationism , are you suggesting that Christians should do away with Jesus also

Where you get one from the other beats me...that's one heck of an illogical leap there buddy...there are Christians who are NOT YEC'ers...who understand that the stories of Genesis 1 & 2 are properly called myths...attempts by ancient peoples to explain how they got here. Every culture has them.

I think Christians should realize that they are WRONG on creationism, it's been disproven time and time again. Yes, God created the universe, however, the idea of 6 24 hour days is ridiculous as it has been proven that at the beginning of earth's creation, the earth spun so fast that a day was 4 hours. It's also been proven that the earth's magnetic poles have flipped, that there was originally ONE supercontinent, that at one time ice covered the entire earth...

Now...NONE of those things are mentioned in the creation myth so I'm left with a decision...I can either trust in the scientists who have no specific agenda other than to find out what happened millions/billions of years ago, or I can trust in a bunch of anti-education, anti-science folks who DO have an agenda...

However, it's folks just like you that are keeping people away from Christianity...who don't understand the nuances of beliefs nor the different literary devices used in the 66 books of the bible.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I hope my fellow Christians don't mind if I stick my nose into this discussion and respond to some of this post.

Irrelevant. He was talking about EVIDENCE, not belief. In terms of supporting evidence, he is correct. In fact, it could be argued that there is MORE evidence for the existence of Santa than for any God. He leaves gifts behind!

There are claims that are made about Jesus and there are claims made about Santa.

Santa:
A man
no divine attributes or claims
Has a group of Reindeer that have no divine claims
Claims:
He can travel around the entire world (in a sled with no divine reindeer) in one night to give children gifts.
No one on earth has ever claimed that they really have had experience of seeing or having contact with the real Santa streaking through the sky with a sled and reindeer other than for fun.
Children believe in him due to parents lying about his existence when they KNOW he doesn't exist.

Jesus:
A man who is also God
Has divine attributes and claims
Evidence of his life is recorded in sources outside of the Bible as well as in the Bible.
People have claimed they experienced Jesus during his life time and since His death.
Children are told about Jesus due to parents believing in His existence because they believe He exists.

The writings of Josephus are very much in doubt (and the writings of those who attempt to utilize him - eg, Eusebius). For example, it is becoming increasingly accepted that his Antiquities is based upon the gospels themselves. So, quoting Josephus is like quoting the Bible to prove the Bible!

It is becoming increasingly accepted by whom?

Nonsense. The truth is exactly the opposite! Outside of the Bible, there is NO credible supporting evidence for the existence of an historical Jesus.

You can deny it if you wish but it is there and it has long been established. There is more evidence for Jesus and closer to His life than other historic figures that goes unquestioned.

Here I depart from my friend bhsmte. I don't hold with the "most Biblical scholars" evidence for two major reasons - it commits an Argument from Popularity/Authority fallacy and it ignores the simple fact that "most Biblical scholars" are themselves Christian, so they come to their study already convinced of the existence of the man they are attempting to research!

That is ridiculous. That is like saying that all Scientists studies must be ignored because they are convinced of the evolution they are attempting to research.

And the obvious reply is that Islam and Hinduism must be "true" given the long history of people willing to die for their beliefs in those religions!

Islam is a religion where you are suppose to die for your god. Christianity is where your God died for you. Those who die for Islam die because they believe it is true, those who died for Christ would have had to die for a lie that they knew was a lie and that is very very unlikely to have happened.

All that martyrdom indicates is the extent to which a delusion can produce extreme behaviors in individuals. It says nothing about any "truth" behind those behaviors.

I wonder if you would say the same if you were taken to the Roman Colosseum and fed to hungry lions or used for torches to burn so people could see the event. These people who would not recant their Christianity would have known if what they "believed" were lies. They followed Christ, they knew the truth. Would they die for something they knew for sure was a lie? I can't believe they would.

He is worshipped because the most powerful empire that existed in the early centuries of the first millennium adopted that worship and carried it to the known world. It became entrenched in that world. You do realize that Muslims could, and do, make exactly the same claim, for approximately the same time span?

He was with the people. HE walked with them and taught them. HE died, it should have been over. There was no reason to worship any longer, He didn't do what they believed He said He would do. Yet there was a resurgence after 500 people say they saw Jesus and those people were still alive when the record of this event was being carried around.

You do realize that Islam believe the Old Testament is true, Right? You do know that they believe in Jesus, right?

 

[bhsmte]

RedPonyDriver
As Jesus believed in creationism , are you suggesting that Christians should do away with Jesus also

If you take everything in the bible literally, you likely don't have any choice but to go along with biblical creationism.

The fact is though, the majority of Christians accept evolution, so they obviously got to a point, where they could not reconcile ignoring this well evidenced science, with reality.

 

[Oncedeceived]

I think Christians should realize that they are WRONG on creationism, it's been disproven time and time again. Yes, God created the universe, however, the idea of 6 24 hour days is ridiculous as it has been proven that at the beginning of earth's creation, the earth spun so fast that a day was 4 hours. It's also been proven that the earth's magnetic poles have flipped, that there was originally ONE supercontinent, that at one time ice covered the entire earth...

1. It has not been dis-proven at any time. Genesis 1 is the Physical narrative for the creation story. Genesis 2 is the Spiritual narrative for Creation.
2. Is God's time the same as ours?

Now...NONE of those things are mentioned in the creation myth so I'm left with a decision...I can either trust in the scientists who have no specific agenda other than to find out what happened millions/billions of years ago, or I can trust in a bunch of anti-education, anti-science folks who DO have an agenda...

Genesis 1 is remarkably close to what Science has uncovered.

However, it's folks just like you that are keeping people away from Christianity...who don't understand the nuances of beliefs nor the different literary devices used in the 66 books of the bible.

There are nuances and there are different literary devices, but there is a very specific way in which the Genesis 1 narrative explains Creation and it fits remarkably well with Scientific findings.

 

[bhsmte]

I don't think Christianity will die in America, no, but it will dwindle, in numbers, over more time, yes. Creationism, I think is something, that will die off with the older generations, that believed in it, from childhood on. I do not think, there are so many people, under age 40, who believe in it now, except, perhaps the homeschooled children. It is already, very, very rare, in Europe.

I would agree.

We will likely continue to see a slow erosion of Christian beliefs, as we have for some decades, but certainly, Christianity as a whole is not going anywhere.

People will just continue to adjust their personal beliefs, as they get to a point, where additional knowledge is compelling enough, to cause them to adjust.

As I have said before, science has never had to adjust to religious beliefs, but religious beliefs have certainly had to adjust to the discoveries of science.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you take everything in the bible literally, you likely don't have any choice but to go along with biblical creationism..

The problem, of course, is that modern Young Earth Creationism certainly doesn't take everything in the Bible literally, not even everything in the Creation narratives literally.

A literal reading of Genesis 1 presents the primordial earth existing as a "empty wasteland" amidst the great primordial sea. The literal reading of Genesis 1 has God crafting, building, molding the cosmos in an orderly fashion out from the disorderliness of its primordial condition. The doctrine of creation ex nihilo, or at least a doctrine of omnes ex nihilo, certainly cannot be derived from a strict literal reading of Genesis 1.

Which does not even begin to touch upon other things taken non-literally such as the earth resting on pillars, or the windows into the solid vault of the heavens, etc.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[SkyWriting]

This is taken from a Christian website.
This for a creationist or Christian should not make very good reading:

There are many poorly researched articles in the world.
A good story would cover related topics for balance.

The Explosive Growth of U.S. Megachurches, Even While Many Say Their Day is Done | The Exchange | A Blog by Ed Stetzer

For the first time, the rise in Christian affiliation in the Global South is outpacing its decline in the North, fueling net growth of Christianity globally.

Why Conservative Churches Are Growing

 

[RedPonyDriver]

If you take everything in the bible literally, you likely don't have any choice but to go along with biblical creationism.

The fact is though, the majority of Christians accept evolution, so they obviously got to a point, where they could not reconcile ignoring this well evidenced science, with reality.

I did not say what you have me quoted as saying. I do not believe in creationism, YEC, etc. I take the scientific evidence of evolution, a 4 billion year old earth, the big bang, etc. as the BEST explanation of how we got here. I believe Genesis 1 & 2 to be myths.

 

[bhsmte]

I did not say what you have me quoted as saying. I do not believe in creationism, YEC, etc. I take the scientific evidence of evolution, a 4 billion year old earth, the big bang, etc. as the BEST explanation of how we got here. I believe Genesis 1 & 2 to be myths.

It wasn't your quote, it was Tasman's quote and he mentioned your name in his quote.

 

[justlookinla]

I did not say what you have me quoted as saying. I do not believe in creationism, YEC, etc. I take the scientific evidence of evolution, a 4 billion year old earth, the big bang, etc. as the BEST explanation of how we got here. I believe Genesis 1 & 2 to be myths.

Scientism offers the evolutionary view which only allows the idea that you're a creature of random/chance, mindless, meaningless, purposeless and goalless mechanisms. Are you saying that as a Christian, you embrace that particular viewpoint?

 

[RedPonyDriver]

Scientism offers the evolutionary view which only allows the idea that you're a creature of random/chance, mindless, meaningless, purposeless and goalless mechanisms. Are you saying that as a Christian, you embrace that particular viewpoint?

I read an excellent book about this not too long ago called The Genesis Question. Read it then we'll discuss...it would take way too long to try to explain things here.

 

[justlookinla]

I read an excellent book about this not too long ago called The Genesis Question. Read it then we'll discuss...it would take way too long to try to explain things here.

I'll put it on my reading list.

ETA: Just put it on my Amazon wish list

ETA: I'm a fan of Hugh Ross. Watched a debate in which he was a participant...but it's been quite a while ago, don't remember who he was debating.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I found it at the local public library. It makes sense, it shows where Genesis 1 & 2 are scientifically plausible and how literal creationism does not make any sense whatsoever given the scientific evidence. He actually goes through Genesis 11 and the flood. Some folks are going to get right upset at what he writes but he makes compelling arguments that take scientific discoveries into account.