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Is creationism and Christianity dying in the US?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by JayFern, Dec 3, 2014.

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  1. EternalDragon

    EternalDragon Counselor

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    So then microbial mats just put themselves together from nothing
    and everything else just evolved from those, eventually into apes
    and then into men?

    You may have a problem when you read further and many of the writers
    refer to Genesis as true and when Jesus speaks of Adam and Eve as
    real people. Or when they trace Jesus' genealogy back to Adam. Then you
    may conclude that the bible writers are false and that Jesus himself is a
    myth.

    So yeah, it would have some bearing on your belief for sure.
     
  2. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    "Professor Darrel Falk has recently pointed out that one should not take the view that young-earth creationism is simply tinkering around the edges of science. If the tenets of young earth creationism were true, basically all of the sciences of geology, cosmology, and biology would utterly collapse. It would be the same as saying 2 plus 2 is actually 5. The tragedy of young-earth creationism is that it takes a relatively recent and extreme view of Genesis, applies to it an unjustified scientific gloss, and then asks sincere and well-meaning seekers to swallow this whole, despite the massive discordance with decades of scientific evidence from multiple disciplines. Is it any wonder that many sadly turn away from faith concluding that they cannot believe in a God who asks for an abandonment of logic and reason?"--Francis Collins, "Faith and the Human Genome"
     
  3. EternalDragon

    EternalDragon Counselor

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    Nice rally statement but not true.
     
  4. bhsmte

    bhsmte Newbie

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    What in his statement is wrong and why?
     
  5. EternalDragon

    EternalDragon Counselor

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    Nothing would "utterly collapse". There have been a lot of changes
    within science over the last couple of hundred years and nothing has
    collapsed. Most science operates on operational science.
     
  6. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    The article does a decent enough job, though it has the problem of attempting to frame the Pharisees and Sadducees from a specifically Evangelical perspective which, frankly, seems to skew things.

    The Sadducees, largely from the aristocratic familes of Judea, had been the people of power since the days of the Hasmonean dynasty following the Maccabean revolt that overthrew the Seleucids and returned independence to the Jewish people, at least temporarily until Pompeii conquered the region for Julius Caesar. The Sadducees as a religious sect accepted only the Torah, the five books of Moses, and thus anything not directly contained therein was fruitless. Ergo they rejected writings largely accepted by other Jewish groups (notably the Pharisees) such as the Prophets and Psalms, and they also rejected the teachings of the rabbis and sages who relied on the Prophets and Psalms and who were responsible for what mainstream Judaism looked like by the first century AD.

    It is impossible to comprehend Jesus except within the Jewish world of first century Judea. Jesus, as far as the Judaism He practiced, was distinctively Pharisaical.

    Where Jesus is critical of the religious establishment His criticism is not that the Pharisees adhered to the "traditions of the elders", but when and where tradition or religious exercise became a matter of hypocrisy and used as a blunt weapon to harm and to hurt the "least of these". What does the Lord say about the Pharisees? He says to His disciples that they must do as the Pharisees say because they sit in Moses' seat. It isn't the preaching and the teaching of the Pharisees that is the problem, it is when people in religious authority take and use religion as a weapon. When becoming so focused on religious purity or religious piety that it becomes a self-justification for sin, for acting hypocritical, for being a jerk to others.

    Jesus certainly doesn't condemn the Pharisees because they gather together in synagogues and follow a proscribed liturgy. Jesus never condemns the Pharisees for observing Hannukkah (and, in John's Gospel, we see Jesus in fact celebrating Hannukkah Himself).

    It isn't that the Pharisees adhered to religious traditions received from their elders, the sages and rabbis that came before them, that Jesus is critical. It is that many of those in positions of religious authority abused that authority for selfish ends, using that authority to act self-righteous and hypocritical. To use religious as a weapon against the weak, the poor, and the outcast--the very people that, if we go back to the Prophets, God very clearly instructs His people to care for.

    Jesus went to the lepers and chastised the religious establishment for mistreating them. Jesus went to tax collectors and prostitutes and said their sins were forgiven and that these could be friends of God. Jesus turned to Zaccheus and says, "Come down from that tree, let's go have supper." When Jesus comes into contact with the woman caught in adultery He says, "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more."

    Because for Jesus it isn't that all the religious things the Pharisees did were in and themselves wrong or a problem, it was that the religious establishment had forgotten that God said, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice", that they should not have forgotten the weightier matters of Torah--mercy and justice.

    So if the only thing you're getting from the Gospels is "traditions are bad" then you've so completely missed the point that it isn't even remotely funny.

    Here's the real point: When you spend all day so concerned with how pious and "holy" you are that you refuse to touch the sick or kneel down with the broken, you are nothing more than a white washed tomb, a sepulcher filled with dry, dead bones.

    Or let's consider what the Apostle says:

    "If I could speak both the languages of men or angels, but have not love, I am but a sounding gong or a noisy cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries, and if I have the faith that can even move mountains but lack love I am nothing."

    Our Lord tells a story about a tax collector and a Pharisee coming to the Temple. The Pharisee stands proud and bragging, loudly declaring his righteousness, and thanks God that he is not like all these other sinners--especially the tax collector. Then the tax collector dares not even look up to heaven, but merely beats his chest saying, "God have mercy on me, a sinner."

    Who walked out of the temple justified that day?

    If you do not understand that Jesus was condemning hypocrisy and the abuse of religion as a weapon against others, then you have completely failed to understand what Jesus is saying.

    But I suppose it's a lot easier to go look at Christians who "act funny" in your imagination, and to say "Oh, they're just like the people Jesus condemned." Rather than going ahead, looking in the mirror, and finding that large log stuck about 2/3 into your eye socket. It's a lot easier than having to read our Lord say, "Woe to those who are rich." and "Woe to those who are full." Or to hear the Master say "Love your neighbor as yourself" and "Love your enemy" and "God sends His rain upon the just and unjust alike" and "Be merciful even as your Father is merciful, for He is kind even to the thankless and the wicked." Or else, "Whatever you did not do to the least of these you did not do it unto Me. Depart from Me, I never knew you."

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  7. Papias

    Papias Listening to TW4

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    SU wrote:
    You're welcome!

    Yes, I think some just don't understand enough science to make an informed statement, since any reasonable description has to be consistent with the evidence we have.

    As a side note, the "Adam as transitional ape" description given does not require either Adam or Eve to be Y ch Adam or mt Eve. I see those names as poor naming choices that only cause confusion.

    Have a good day-

    Papias
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2014
  8. lewiscalledhimmaster

    lewiscalledhimmaster georgemacdonald.info

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    This works both ways.

    Christian faith is mostly grounded in part, on an historical event -- and then there is the matte of the resurrection. According to St. Paul's letter (ref. 1 Cor. 15) -- it was recorded in the Scriptures (long before the event), it was witnessed by those who saw him after he died, including the event that AV is referring too ( Doubting Thomas ) -- as well as many others (ref. 1 Cor. 15) -- There is more tot this, but you should be able to access the work of Dr. William Lane Craig -- and his various debates i.e. Richard Carrier. (nothing new here)

    I think you've got a rather one-sided view of religion -- it's a delicate instrument, not unlike a telescope or a microscope, but more akin to Physics -- and better described as that which 'cares for orphans and widows in distress' -- there is more, but I'm sure you can do a little study on this, and :liturgy:
     
  9. EternalDragon

    EternalDragon Counselor

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    Well, we are discussing born again Christianity I believe. Not man made religions.
     
  10. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE Supporter

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    They certainly affect you, don't they?
     
  11. TheyCallMeDavid

    TheyCallMeDavid Well-Known Member

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    Bad economic times, a society which wants secular humanism so people can live as they like , present Church Goers falling away so they can live as they like cause commitment to God and promise of eternal life ruins their fun now , poorly managed CHurches, too many Churches in one locale, Parents raising their children based on non existent morals and ethics as found on Simpson TV Program , Parents allowing their immature children to decide what course of life they want to follow , and an ever competing highly sexually illicit Culture which promises so much fun but only delivers in 33 STDS now shared with 1 in 3 American Adults......are the major reasons why Churches are not filled or are having to close doors.

    Not to worry, cause Gods Word doesn't lie when it says that not even the gates of Hell will abolish the international Church that is Christs . In the end, Christians are the winners and God Rejectors get their ultimate wish : GreatER distance from God except forever. Easy choice but requires a commitment based on integrity and love for what Jesus has done.
     
  12. PrayerandPeace

    PrayerandPeace I Believe!

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    Yes but no hard feelings. Once the mass falling away happens Christ will return soon after.
     
  13. lewiscalledhimmaster

    lewiscalledhimmaster georgemacdonald.info

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    No, that is not it Fancy123. What is it about any story, which might lead the readers to conclude that is it more than a man made story?

    If this is personal, then I guess you're aware that most thinking people know that there are those who are happy with 'blind faith' or 'borrowed faith' -- but that's not where it ends for everybody. Not everyone who is religious, holds their beliefs blindly (or borrowed)

    :liturgy:
     
  14. lewiscalledhimmaster

    lewiscalledhimmaster georgemacdonald.info

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    Some very negatively - i.e. Christian Doomsday Cults

    There are certainly those within groups like these, who're rooted in very unhealthy beliefs.

    :liturgy:
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
  15. lewiscalledhimmaster

    lewiscalledhimmaster georgemacdonald.info

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    You'd be surprised how many people, even with the evidence right in front of them require a kindly, gentle nudge -- before they take that first step.

    So, what's holding you back?
     
  16. madaz

    madaz dyslexic agnostic insomniac

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    Correct! He was then as he is now. I just didn't realise it at the time.

    It was about as real as relationships with imaginary friends can get.
     
  17. lewiscalledhimmaster

    lewiscalledhimmaster georgemacdonald.info

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    Imagination is fun, but it's like a mirage.

    Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.

    Guess who?
     
  18. madaz

    madaz dyslexic agnostic insomniac

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    One of my favorite quotes.
     
  19. lewiscalledhimmaster

    lewiscalledhimmaster georgemacdonald.info

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    :thumbsup:

    Here's another from the chapter which Richard Dawkins and (physicist) Stephen Wienberg* enjoyed: (it's towards the end of their chat)

    'For now we see in a mirror dimly, ....'

    Here's a translation of it, which I hope opens it up a little more:

    'We don’t yet see things clearly. We’re squinting in a fog, peering through a mist. ....'

    Guess who? ^_^

    ---

    * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7AEhbcJoz4
     
  20. madaz

    madaz dyslexic agnostic insomniac

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    I didn't watch the video, however Im familiar with that verse in 1 Corinthians.

    Do you have a point to make?
     
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